Vintage pickups

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Re: Vintage pickups

Well, aside from mismatched coils as I stated earlier. I believe Throbak is the only place outside the Custom Shop that will give you mismatched coils wound on the Leesona. And mismatched coils does produce a sound that you can't get from matched coils.

The other things you mentioned like pole piece alloy do affect the sound. I understand what you're saying, that in isolation does not warrant 2x the price of a Duncan. Again I'm not saying I agree with Throbak's price-to-value ratio I just wouldn't be as harsh as you are about it, and I wish him well.

You say there's no proven performance enhancement from those differences, well many Throbak customers have owned Seths or Antiquities, Pearly Gates or other PAF style pickups throughout their lifetime. If they buy the Throbaks and they sound better to their ears, then that's proof enough that something about his recipe warranted payment.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

frankfalbo said:
I would take an MJ/Leesona wound Custom Shop pickup
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this is a curious assertion.

when I recently sourced a 59 Model set made by MJ, I felt I had something that would have more going for it. and then someone suggested that a 59 Model made on the Leesona (as the 59 Model is marketed to be) is pretty much the same as the next 59 Model, no matter who was at the machine.

I'd be interested in your take on all that.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

Vintage guitar parts,and vintage pickups in particular.... Man , you're opening Pandora's box of worms!!
I'll try to keep this short. And try not to sound like Grandpa lecturing the kids......
In the 80's and 90's,( here we go!!), I removed a lot of pickups,machine head's,pots,switches,pickup surrounds,pickup covers,nuts,bridges,saddles,even strap buttons from pretty much brand new,or lightly used, guitars for one basic reason. They were CRAP!!!!
I know folks will read this and think "What's he talking about? These were classic instruments!"
Sorry,they weren't.
The best example I can provide is the Gibson T Top and Tar back pickups of the 70's-80's.
I always had a few sets of these in the showcase at my shop and couldn't give them away. Why? Coz a Duncan JB/59 combo or a set of Dimarzio Super Distortions sounded so much better!
Now I see dudes on eBay wanting up to $800 for a set of T Tops. Seriously????? Stick in a set of 59's ! You'll be a lot happier.
OK,if you're restoring a 1980 "V" and want it all "matching numbers",fine,put em in. But if you're going to be gigging this axe,you'll probably want something better.
OK,Ive finished my grumpy ol'bastard rant....for the moment.
I'll just leave you with this thought. Not everything from "back in the day" was better.
And that's from a dude who was built waaaaay back in the day!!

Cheers,PJ

BTW: There was plenty of good guitar stuff from the 70's and 80's. Lots of amps,effects and yes,guitars. It just wasn't a stellar period in the history of the guitar world's two most famous makers Gibson and Fender.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

darthphineas said:
this is a curious assertion.

when I recently sourced a 59 Model set made by MJ, I felt I had something that would have more going for it. and then someone suggested that a 59 Model made on the Leesona (as the 59 Model is marketed to be) is pretty much the same as the next 59 Model, no matter who was at the machine.

I'd be interested in your take on all that.
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I just meant an MJ/Custom Shop order, I could spec it all out. Wouldn't matter who was running the machine really, to me, because they have experienced winders who are used to running the Leesona. My Duncan experiences were that you didn't wind on the Leesona like...your first day on the job. I'm saying "MJ" because I could spec out whether I wanted min/nom or nom/max, and the Custom Shop can degauss the magnet and/or use rough cast. And I can spec the mismatch between the coils. I could tell her how many turns I want on the screw coil, how many on the slug coil. Plus I like Duncan's butyrate bobbin a little better than Throbak's. I understand that he feels he's closer to vintage spec but I'm happy with Duncan's size and shape for PAF's, and happy with their butyrate formula. I can also have MJ pot it at a lower temperature if I want.

Now, all these things are probably available from Throbak as well, but as stated they would come at a higher price. But again so as not to dis Throbak's business model, if you DON'T know what to ask for from MJ, and you've tried a Throbak pickup and it sounds perfect to your ears, then buy the Throbak. I'm fortunate enough to know how to spec what I want. You can ask MJ for a garden-variety mismatched, rough cast PAF and she'll make a great pickup too.

All that said, I have all the PAF-alikes I need at the moment, so I won't be dialing the CS any time soon. Plus, in most cases I even prefer the Fluence Classic V1, which is not beholden to secret plastics from the illuminati or warlock alloys. Not everything has to be archaeologically duplicated about a PAF to get the sound we want. But it's important to know what does make a difference.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

I am not able to follow what is being said here because of the many references to PAF sound. Is there some link to this PAF sound so I can hear it and understand more about it. I did search some for it but the standard definition is a Gibson Patent Applied For humbucking pickup ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAF_(pickup) ) that was produced from the mid 50s to early 60s and as a result of changes in the compents and little process control in building produced a wide variety of tones.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

I definitely think PAFs and even T-Tops are priced for the collectors' markets and not the players' markets. Considering that PAFs weren't made with much consistency, you can't buy a set and be sure of what you're getting. Burstbuckers come in 3 different windings in order to replicate variations on the PAF. If there is a specific PAF guitar that you love the sound of, you can probably buy good copies of that specific set of pickups, e.g. Pearly Gates. But you can't say you love the sound of Pearly Gates and just go buy any random set of PAFs in order to replicate it.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

the link to the throbak info in post #11 covers most of it. i wouldnt take all of it as gospel since its run by a guy who is in the business of selling expensive pup sets but there is lots of good info in there.

as far as snow flakes i prefer my snow flake has balanced coils in the bridge

i agree that the silly prices that are being paid are collector prices but if thats what someone wants to spend their money on so be it. there are a handful of musicians out there that are out there playing their bursts which is nice to see. and for the record i was loving my hamer monaco elite with pg set this weekend
 
Re: Vintage pickups

My view, for what it's worth -- it's a combination of all of the above and the fact that some PAF's really are killer pickups and nothing else sounds quite like them.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

frankfalbo said:
Well, aside from mismatched coils as I stated earlier. I believe Throbak is the only place outside the Custom Shop that will give you mismatched coils wound on the Leesona. And mismatched coils does produce a sound that you can't get from matched coils.

The other things you mentioned like pole piece alloy do affect the sound. I understand what you're saying, that in isolation does not warrant 2x the price of a Duncan. Again I'm not saying I agree with Throbak's price-to-value ratio I just wouldn't be as harsh as you are about it, and I wish him well.

You say there's no proven performance enhancement from those differences, well many Throbak customers have owned Seths or Antiquities, Pearly Gates or other PAF style pickups throughout their lifetime. If they buy the Throbaks and they sound better to their ears, then that's proof enough that something about his recipe warranted payment.
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The thing about mismatched coils is that it's possible that the coils of any given PAF were not substantially mismatched, and if they were, you don't know which of the two coils happened to be overwound relative to the other, so mismatching coils therefore cannot be an attribution which makes a pickup any more or less like authentic PAFs, since the result is spec (which is to say "not spec'd") either way.

The thing about Throbak's new promotional website is that probably nobody on Earth stands to benefit more from convincing guitarists that every original atomic detail of the original PAF is significant to the sound, and some of the claims therein are specious. We also respect Seymour Duncan's commitment to vintage tone, as that was his forte for decades while DiMarzio was catering to hair metal, and SD saw fit to put a plastic spacer in the '59 humbucker, and that was just fine, before it somehow become so important to obsess over authenticity for it's own sake.

The opinions here seem to be more political than anything, to somehow suggest that every pickup is a perfect PAF, even when they are representative of opposing philosophies; the '59 is perfect, the Seth Lover is perfect, Throbaks are perfect, Fluence Classics, all somehow perfect. People that aren't afraid to step on some feelings might be willing to opine that there is a sweet spot, and I say it's the Seth Lover, as it's not wax potted, and it uses material that correctly place it's electrical values. No excessive eddy losses, no excessive inductance. The maple spacer is probably not a big deal, but seeing as how cheap and easy it is to get that details correct, there's hardly a reason not to use a maple spacer.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

thanaton said:
The thing about mismatched coils is that it's possible that the coils of any given PAF were not substantially mismatched, and if they were, you don't know which of the two coils happened to be overwound relative to the other, so mismatching coils therefore cannot be an attribution which makes a pickup any more or less like authentic PAFs, since the result is spec (which is to say "not spec'd") either way.

The thing about Throbak's new promotional website is that probably nobody on Earth stands to benefit more from convincing guitarists that every original atomic detail of the original PAF is significant to the sound, and some of the claims therein are specious. We also respect Seymour Duncan's commitment to vintage tone, as that was his forte for decades while DiMarzio was catering to hair metal, and SD saw fit to put a plastic spacer in the '59 humbucker, and that was just fine, before it somehow become so important to obsess over authenticity for it's own sake.

The opinions here seem to be more political than anything, to somehow suggest that every pickup is a perfect PAF, even when they are representative of opposing philosophies; the '59 is perfect, the Seth Lover is perfect, Throbaks are perfect, Fluence Classics, all somehow perfect. People that aren't afraid to step on some feelings might be willing to opine that there is a sweet spot, and I say it's the Seth Lover, as it's not wax potted, and it uses material that correctly place it's electrical values. No excessive eddy losses, no excessive inductance. The maple spacer is probably not a big deal, but seeing as how cheap and easy it is to get that details correct, there's hardly a reason not to use a maple spacer.
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You think then that you can tell the difference between a 59 and a Seth Lover? This is where I came in and so this is where I will get off the bus taking people around and around and around psychophonic land.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

Thanaton - The mismatch and the various way they were mismatched is what gives the PAF its unique character with a framework.
If you actually know the way the machines work, and have taken apart enough pickups then you get an idea on what the likely mismatch in both turns, geometry and likely resultant resonant frequency will be. Or at least on the ones you most find tonally pleasing so you can duplicate them as best as possible.

Simply saying 'I have no idea on the details but I'm sure they don't matter' is no argument. Seymour never sweats the small details. He does what he needs to do to get the main things right. But whilst he is more vintage correct by comparison to Dimarzio he has never been up on the details......none have offset coils and most have potting. He goes for PAF-like, not PAF clone as has been discussed many times here before.

As to the cynical part.......its true there is self promotion. But its not like he's the only guy going to these lengths making PAF clones, or with the same obsession.
This website misses for the most part the PAF clone mania - but go the the Les Paul forum or MLP and you'll find at least 20 other winders that go to the same level of detail......and at varying level of cost to almost the same.

The thing here is that without being a winder yourself, you have no idea of the things that actually do change value. You also consistently refuse to try and learn why these details matter. As such your opinion here is irrelevant.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

backporchpicker said:
You think then that you can tell the difference between a 59 and a Seth Lover?
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Seymour's 59 Model and Seymour's Seth model?

I understand that appears to be pointed toward thanaton... and although I don't know him personally, I'd suggest that many players would be able to tell the difference.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

backporchpicker said:
You think then that you can tell the difference between a 59 and a Seth Lover? This is where I came in and so this is where I will get off the bus taking people around and around and around psychophonic land.
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If you can't distinguish such broad tonal differences, then in a way I envy you. You will be happy with even the most basic tone and feel no frustrations.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

AlexR said:
Seymour never sweats the small details.
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Re: Vintage pickups

backporchpicker said:
You think then that you can tell the difference between a 59 and a Seth Lover? This is where I came in and so this is where I will get off the bus taking people around and around and around psychophonic land.
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I'm not sure what you're asserting. I used a '59 neck for several years, and I've had a Seth Lover set for a few years, but not at the same time, and not in the same guitar, so I can't opine as to whether they sound a like or not. I don't suppose they do, though, since there are both physical and electrical differences between them.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

It all comes back to the diminishing returns thing. Seth Lovers are great. Would a little tweak to the windings make a pickup I prefer? Maybe, but how much am I willing to pay for that? A guy in a small shop is going to be more expensive than a big company with a factory. It might cost me 200% or more of the price of the Seths to get that 2 or 3% extra that I prefer. I'm not willing to pay it for a number of reasons, but another guy is. So I'm happy at 98% of what I want with a $200 outlay. Another dude might want his 100% and if he has $500 burning a hole in his pocket, he'll spend it. And we're both happy.

I can put my computer on a Chippendale desk or one from Ikea. It's all a matter of what I want to spend and what brings me joy. I'm more of an Ikea guy, but who knows if I won a lottery.
 
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Re: Vintage pickups

thanaton said:
The thing about mismatched coils is that it's possible that the coils of any given PAF were not substantially mismatched, and if they were, you don't know which of the two coils happened to be overwound relative to the other, so mismatching coils therefore cannot be an attribution which makes a pickup any more or less like authentic PAFs, since the result is spec (which is to say "not spec'd") either way.
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True, and since they're all snowflakes, you can not say that a certain delta between coils is authentic, or a targeted fixed turn count of each coil represents anything other than one plausible embodiment. What I find funny is that over the years, if you add up all the different brands and models, there are MORE PAF replica pickup models available than there were original PAF's! That means we are literally dealing in hypothetical iterations that are known NOT to have occurred. People are making what they speculate might have been a happy accident, but that never actually existed. They're also targeting some fixed point of aging. A 50's PAF in 1959? Or in 1971 when some famous recording used that guitar? Or in 2016, what that guitar sounds like today?

Where I'll clarify on your statement is that one thing that is statistically sound, is that NONE of them likely had the EXACT same number of turns. The random nature of their wind process, winding by time, would have been exponentially more likely to produce mismatched coils than a perfectly matched pair. Even the same woman, winding two coils in a row to perfection; those two coils were no more likely to be used on the same pickup as any other two. So to say that some imbalance is more vintage correct than two perfectly matched coils, is technically correct. But Seymour likes matched coils, and he says that's what Seth Lover intended, so therefore he thinks it's the target to hit. And Seymour's pickups sound great, so you can't argue that.

My only reason for bringing it up, was if someone likes the way mismatched coils sound regardless of vintage accuracy, then they have to go to Throbak or the Custom Shop. Seymour never put that into production.

thanaton said:
The thing about Throbak's new promotional website is that probably nobody on Earth stands to benefit more from convincing guitarists that every original atomic detail of the original PAF is significant to the sound, and some of the claims therein are specious.
Click to expand...
Again not disagreeing there, just that if you wanted that combination of features, you're stuck with him or the Custom Shop as far as I know.
 
Re: Vintage pickups

thanaton said:
I'm not sure what you're asserting. I used a '59 neck for several years, and I've had a Seth Lover set for a few years, but not at the same time, and not in the same guitar, so I can't opine as to whether they sound a like or not. I don't suppose they do, though, since there are both physical and electrical differences between them.
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Out in the wild with guitar tone control adjustments, EQ pedals and various adjustments available on amps (amp Sims included) do you think that a Seth Lover neck could be made to sound like a 59 and visa versa?
 
Re: Vintage pickups

backporchpicker said:
Out in the wild with guitar tone control adjustments, EQ pedals and various adjustments available on amps (amp Sims included) do you think that a Seth Lover neck could be made to sound like a 59 and visa versa?
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As far as their electrical differences are concerned, the brighter of the two could be made to sound like the darker of the two with specific EQ adjustments, but the Seth Lover is also unpotted, which means a portion of it's resulting sound owes to the microphonics, which can't be duplicated with EQ alone, since the degree of microphonic input is dependent on the environment, and how loud the guitar amp is cranked up.

It would be interesting to find out if a '59 could be modified to become microphonic in the same way that a Seth Lover is microphonic. It's hard to tell which specific parts of the unpotted pickup results in it having a particular "unpotted" tone. Maybe it's the wax free windings, maybe it's the wax free cover, maybe it's everything combined.
 
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