Vintage pickups
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treyhaislip
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
I don't know what list you are talking about specifically but from I gathered by browsing the posts above he mentioned a list of boutique winders which I believe is this list here. A quick search also shows the following list of pickup makers...a ton to choose from.
Here is a list
Here is another list
Here is another list
Here is another list
There are tons of guitar pickup makers/winders out there and majority of them offer at least one PAF style/version so as FrankFalbo said, there are recreating "PAF style" pickups that never existed.
I don't know what list you are talking about specifically but from I gathered by browsing the posts above he mentioned a list of boutique winders which I believe is this list here. A quick search also shows the following list of pickup makers...a ton to choose from.
Here is a list
Here is another list
Here is another list
Here is another list
There are tons of guitar pickup makers/winders out there and majority of them offer at least one PAF style/version so as FrankFalbo said, there are recreating "PAF style" pickups that never existed.
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Re: Vintage pickups
I wasn't asking for a list of PAF clone winders, here's my post again:
I'd like to see a list of specific things that make some of the popular "PAF style" pickups different from a "PAF clone", and then for each item I'd like to see some explanation as to how that difference impacts the final tone or performance of the pickup. A good example would be a plastic spacer versus maple. Through what physical means would a plastic spacer alter the tone?
I wasn't asking for a list of PAF clone winders, here's my post again:
I'd like to see a list of specific things that make some of the popular "PAF style" pickups different from a "PAF clone", and then for each item I'd like to see some explanation as to how that difference impacts the final tone or performance of the pickup. A good example would be a plastic spacer versus maple. Through what physical means would a plastic spacer alter the tone?
treyhaislip
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
A. I think this thread has good information and don't want it to be deleted because some forum members are targeting
B. I wasn't clear in my response–AlexR mentioned he wasn't going to waste his time and I was just seconding his response of wasting time
C. There are literally hundreds of boutique winders offering PAF style pickups–more offerings than actual PAFs were ever made/renderings not actually made during the late 50s and early 60s...please see point B
D. Such a list you are asking for, IMO, seems to be a waste of time–people debate whether or not tonewoods (include other materials as well) matter with electric guitars yet alone plastic vs maple spacers and PAF Style vs Clone...again to point B
A. I think this thread has good information and don't want it to be deleted because some forum members are targeting
B. I wasn't clear in my response–AlexR mentioned he wasn't going to waste his time and I was just seconding his response of wasting time
C. There are literally hundreds of boutique winders offering PAF style pickups–more offerings than actual PAFs were ever made/renderings not actually made during the late 50s and early 60s...please see point B
D. Such a list you are asking for, IMO, seems to be a waste of time–people debate whether or not tonewoods (include other materials as well) matter with electric guitars yet alone plastic vs maple spacers and PAF Style vs Clone...again to point B
LtKojak
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
You're asking is to be revealed the result of countless hours of research and trial-and-error testing the most respectable winders made in many years of hard work.
Re: Vintage pickups
Why are you afraid to make a list of differences between "PAF clones" and "PAF style" pickups? Mind you, I'm not even the one who drew this distinction in the first place.
If someone is trying to decide whether they should buy a ThroBak or a Seth Lover, a list of differences between their respective authenticates would naturally result. It arises from the simple question of "what do I get for the extra $300 spent?"
If anyone is dedicated to the idea that there are meaningful differences between a ThroBak and a Seth Lover, they should be able to list these differences effortlessly, very likely from memory. It's merely a matter of your willingness to do so. Only on this forum, could asking people to elaborate on their own points, be considered a hostile act.
Why are you afraid to make a list of differences between "PAF clones" and "PAF style" pickups? Mind you, I'm not even the one who drew this distinction in the first place.
If someone is trying to decide whether they should buy a ThroBak or a Seth Lover, a list of differences between their respective authenticates would naturally result. It arises from the simple question of "what do I get for the extra $300 spent?"
If anyone is dedicated to the idea that there are meaningful differences between a ThroBak and a Seth Lover, they should be able to list these differences effortlessly, very likely from memory. It's merely a matter of your willingness to do so. Only on this forum, could asking people to elaborate on their own points, be considered a hostile act.
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Re: Vintage pickups
Look, we've listed a few times how the wind parameters effect tone.....you don't listen.
Frank shows his endless patience to try and teach you new things......you attack him and make veiled threats against him.
If you indeed know what you think you know about electronics, then think for a second about the way the wire is laid down on the bobbins.
Close-packed vs more random packed (scatterwound)
The volume of wire further up in the field vs down low......or as a hump in the centre.
The gauge of wire in terms of a random fluctuation through its length vs constant.
Alnico specific composition and how that affects charge and therefore magnetic field
Small component metallic composition in relation to the above.
The effect of non-perfect cancellation between coils (offset coil tone)
We have all exhibited extraordinary patience in the face of your belligerent 'head in the sand attitude' toward anything you cannot lecture others on. It is time to shelve the pride and learn for once.
Look, we've listed a few times how the wind parameters effect tone.....you don't listen.
Frank shows his endless patience to try and teach you new things......you attack him and make veiled threats against him.
If you indeed know what you think you know about electronics, then think for a second about the way the wire is laid down on the bobbins.
Close-packed vs more random packed (scatterwound)
The volume of wire further up in the field vs down low......or as a hump in the centre.
The gauge of wire in terms of a random fluctuation through its length vs constant.
Alnico specific composition and how that affects charge and therefore magnetic field
Small component metallic composition in relation to the above.
The effect of non-perfect cancellation between coils (offset coil tone)
We have all exhibited extraordinary patience in the face of your belligerent 'head in the sand attitude' toward anything you cannot lecture others on. It is time to shelve the pride and learn for once.
treyhaislip
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
I for one am not afraid–I simply don't care. The pickup I currently use the most is a Tele single coil, not a P.A.F. style/clone. I do have a Pearly Gates bridge pickup (awesome pickup) but I don't care about trying to emulate a pickup from a certain guitar from a certain year–I want my guitars to sound the best for the music/project I am currently working on.
It's not a hostile act in my mind–just ridiculous and borderline lazy as you are impolitely asking for something that would take hours of research and careful documentation to actually make a list. And even then, people don't need such a list to decide whether or not they need a ThroBak or a Seth Lover.
While there will be some overlap in who is being marketed to, Seymour Duncan is a much broader company than ThroBak. To quote FrankFalbo again, you are paying for countless hours of research and development into a product–very specific offerings especially compared to Seymour Duncan. People pay the high prices for his products, therefore the prices can stay high (if no one bought any either he would lower the prices or quit making pickups.)
I for one am not afraid–I simply don't care. The pickup I currently use the most is a Tele single coil, not a P.A.F. style/clone. I do have a Pearly Gates bridge pickup (awesome pickup) but I don't care about trying to emulate a pickup from a certain guitar from a certain year–I want my guitars to sound the best for the music/project I am currently working on.
It's not a hostile act in my mind–just ridiculous and borderline lazy as you are impolitely asking for something that would take hours of research and careful documentation to actually make a list. And even then, people don't need such a list to decide whether or not they need a ThroBak or a Seth Lover.
While there will be some overlap in who is being marketed to, Seymour Duncan is a much broader company than ThroBak. To quote FrankFalbo again, you are paying for countless hours of research and development into a product–very specific offerings especially compared to Seymour Duncan. People pay the high prices for his products, therefore the prices can stay high (if no one bought any either he would lower the prices or quit making pickups.)
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Re: Vintage pickups
Let's set aside the physics for a moment. Are you sure any of those details are specific to "PAF clones" and incorrect "PAF style" pickups?
You said earlier:
"Seymour never sweats the small details. He does what he needs to do to get the main things right. But whilst he is more vintage correct by comparison to Dimarzio he has never been up on the details......none have offset coils and most have potting."
So what exactly sets a Seth Lover apart from what you term as a "PAF clone"? The imbalanced coils don't count because some PAF had balanced coils, and even if they didn't you couldn't be sure which coil the imbalance favored. Are you sure the wire is layered wrong? Are you sure the AlNiCo compositions are wrong?
Let's set aside the physics for a moment. Are you sure any of those details are specific to "PAF clones" and incorrect "PAF style" pickups?
You said earlier:
"Seymour never sweats the small details. He does what he needs to do to get the main things right. But whilst he is more vintage correct by comparison to Dimarzio he has never been up on the details......none have offset coils and most have potting."
So what exactly sets a Seth Lover apart from what you term as a "PAF clone"? The imbalanced coils don't count because some PAF had balanced coils, and even if they didn't you couldn't be sure which coil the imbalance favored. Are you sure the wire is layered wrong? Are you sure the AlNiCo compositions are wrong?
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Re: Vintage pickups
Well AlexR cares about the differences, he apparently cares a lot.
Well AlexR cares about the differences, he apparently cares a lot.
backporchpicker
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
I think what you are asking for is impossible but maybe I am just misunderstanding the situation. I have postulated that "PAF" is a meaningless term in regards to describing a current day pickup because as it has been pointed out by many that those pickups were built without much process control and so their tone covers a very broad spectrum. In that regards a "PAF clone" and a "PAF style" pickup are also fall into the same black hole of the undefinable. I will elaborate so as to hopefully kill this beasty once and for all, tell me how it would be possible to clone a "PAF" pickup understanding that PAF represents thousands of pickups built between 1955 and 1962 unless you would go so far as to select one of these pickups and somehow through a science fiction type process extract and duplicate this pickups genetic code. Do I need to elaborate further on "PAF style"? Hopefully you recognize that it also falls into the realm where only a man named Heisenberg might be able to help you.
I think what you are asking for is impossible but maybe I am just misunderstanding the situation. I have postulated that "PAF" is a meaningless term in regards to describing a current day pickup because as it has been pointed out by many that those pickups were built without much process control and so their tone covers a very broad spectrum. In that regards a "PAF clone" and a "PAF style" pickup are also fall into the same black hole of the undefinable. I will elaborate so as to hopefully kill this beasty once and for all, tell me how it would be possible to clone a "PAF" pickup understanding that PAF represents thousands of pickups built between 1955 and 1962 unless you would go so far as to select one of these pickups and somehow through a science fiction type process extract and duplicate this pickups genetic code. Do I need to elaborate further on "PAF style"? Hopefully you recognize that it also falls into the realm where only a man named Heisenberg might be able to help you.
Re: Vintage pickups
Clones work on all the details.....as the word clone should suggest even before you asked.
PAF like doesn't.
If you don't look to every detail in the tone-related parameters, how on earth can you be expected to get every tonal detail right. I already pointed you toward a website that has a good deal of info on what is found in PAF's. If a pickup doesn't sport these details, how on earth can it be a clone.
Its all about how close you want to get. For many the Seth is great. It scratches the itch close enough for them - the PAF clones I own can be quite finicky as to the guitar they reside in, and Duncan goes for more widespread compatibility.
But I've seen a few threads where some find it a bit stuffy by comparison to the PAF's they've used, and PAF clones they own.
So back to the actual real bit.......what does your knowledge say about the tonal aspects - we're all waiting to hear what you think.
Clones work on all the details.....as the word clone should suggest even before you asked.
PAF like doesn't.
If you don't look to every detail in the tone-related parameters, how on earth can you be expected to get every tonal detail right. I already pointed you toward a website that has a good deal of info on what is found in PAF's. If a pickup doesn't sport these details, how on earth can it be a clone.
Its all about how close you want to get. For many the Seth is great. It scratches the itch close enough for them - the PAF clones I own can be quite finicky as to the guitar they reside in, and Duncan goes for more widespread compatibility.
But I've seen a few threads where some find it a bit stuffy by comparison to the PAF's they've used, and PAF clones they own.
So back to the actual real bit.......what does your knowledge say about the tonal aspects - we're all waiting to hear what you think.
Re: Vintage pickups
This has already been addressed in this thread. You clone 1 pickup.
If you have taken apart enough pickups or repaired a lot, you will know the outer shapes of the final coil, and the inner wind pattern for each outer shape - there are recognisable patterns that reoccur. Whilst people say PAF's are 'random', they are not completely random. Its mainly the way 2 coils from different machines and spools connect together that creates (or supposedly kills) the magic.
Of the many machines that wound, each had a certain pattern of laying the wire down that repeated. The final coil shape was distinctive. But each machine wound 3 or 4 coils at a time. Those who know enough can recognise coils wound on that same position within the machine.
It becomes easy to duplicate the wind based on the coil outer shape and how you know that part of the machine worked. Add in the K figure from the coil and the resonant frequency plus typical wire tension for those machines and you can take the superficial readings that don't rely on destructive testing and almost wind the precise same coil.....reverse engineering its called.
This has already been addressed in this thread. You clone 1 pickup.
If you have taken apart enough pickups or repaired a lot, you will know the outer shapes of the final coil, and the inner wind pattern for each outer shape - there are recognisable patterns that reoccur. Whilst people say PAF's are 'random', they are not completely random. Its mainly the way 2 coils from different machines and spools connect together that creates (or supposedly kills) the magic.
Of the many machines that wound, each had a certain pattern of laying the wire down that repeated. The final coil shape was distinctive. But each machine wound 3 or 4 coils at a time. Those who know enough can recognise coils wound on that same position within the machine.
It becomes easy to duplicate the wind based on the coil outer shape and how you know that part of the machine worked. Add in the K figure from the coil and the resonant frequency plus typical wire tension for those machines and you can take the superficial readings that don't rely on destructive testing and almost wind the precise same coil.....reverse engineering its called.
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backporchpicker
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
While you are at it you best reverse engineer the wood that the guitars these "PAF"s were installed in and reverse engineer the tubes that were in the amps they were played through because without these ingredients you won't get that "PAF" tone.
While you are at it you best reverse engineer the wood that the guitars these "PAF"s were installed in and reverse engineer the tubes that were in the amps they were played through because without these ingredients you won't get that "PAF" tone.
Re: Vintage pickups
^ Correct.
You need all the parts in the chain.
And even with all the parts, you will never know if you got it right, or better than right, or worse.....as its you playing the rig not whoever recorded whatever clip you seem to think is PAF tone.
But that is not what this thread is about.
^ Correct.
You need all the parts in the chain.
And even with all the parts, you will never know if you got it right, or better than right, or worse.....as its you playing the rig not whoever recorded whatever clip you seem to think is PAF tone.
But that is not what this thread is about.
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backporchpicker
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
I don't think that reverse engineering wood is possible and although possible but certainly not cost effective reverse engineering the 6L6s of bygone days is unlikely. If I have got this part right then what is the point of reverse engineering a pickup that will never be put in an environment that creates this sought after tone? BTW, what is this thread about?
I don't think that reverse engineering wood is possible and although possible but certainly not cost effective reverse engineering the 6L6s of bygone days is unlikely. If I have got this part right then what is the point of reverse engineering a pickup that will never be put in an environment that creates this sought after tone? BTW, what is this thread about?
Re: Vintage pickups
Ok, my offtopic moment.
Tell me.....what ideal do you hold for wood?? such that you can comfortably say that a modrn bit or bits can't be like older bits?? We all know that each bit is unique. That Gibson used a variety of different cuts for just about every aspect. We also know that wood falls within a range of density and mass. It goes without saying that you are likely to find a statistical similarity if you considered populations of the same weight blanks now and back then.
Whilst wood is important, the overriding part of electric guitar tone in the guitar component is the pickup and electrics. Whilst I have experienced a good portion of differences with guitars of supposedly the same construction, I have never found one LP to say sound like what a strat, or a Tele, or a Jazzmaster does. The differences in wood are no way are as much as the pickup.
And those who say wood is irrelevant will tell you the pickup side is all important.
Ok, my offtopic moment.
Tell me.....what ideal do you hold for wood?? such that you can comfortably say that a modrn bit or bits can't be like older bits?? We all know that each bit is unique. That Gibson used a variety of different cuts for just about every aspect. We also know that wood falls within a range of density and mass. It goes without saying that you are likely to find a statistical similarity if you considered populations of the same weight blanks now and back then.
Whilst wood is important, the overriding part of electric guitar tone in the guitar component is the pickup and electrics. Whilst I have experienced a good portion of differences with guitars of supposedly the same construction, I have never found one LP to say sound like what a strat, or a Tele, or a Jazzmaster does. The differences in wood are no way are as much as the pickup.
And those who say wood is irrelevant will tell you the pickup side is all important.
backporchpicker
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
Thank you for that. I would agree that the pickup is the most important component in creating the sound of an electric guitar but I would say that the amplification of the signal from the pickup is as if not more important than the pickup. So how do you recreate the Amplifiers? I do apologize for being thick headed but I am really trying to understand what is going on as I think it is very important.
Thank you for that. I would agree that the pickup is the most important component in creating the sound of an electric guitar but I would say that the amplification of the signal from the pickup is as if not more important than the pickup. So how do you recreate the Amplifiers? I do apologize for being thick headed but I am really trying to understand what is going on as I think it is very important.
pushedcrayon1
New member
Re: Vintage pickups
This thread was originally me just asking why some pickups are worth so much money, and here we are a few pages later.
I must say I've learned a lot by reading everything though!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk
This thread was originally me just asking why some pickups are worth so much money, and here we are a few pages later.
I must say I've learned a lot by reading everything though!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk
Re: Vintage pickups
^ Some thread wanderings actually go to a much better place than could ever have been expected. This hopefully is one.
Backporch - Amplifiers are easier......they are manufactured components with tolerances. All you have to do is use the same components with the same tolerances. Marshall for example from scratch engineered the transformers for its anniversary bluesbreaker combo.....using the same alloys and same processes used for the original.
Valves are harder......but there is so much variation and they last so short that you cannot isolate the tone of an amp to a short-lived tube.
^ Some thread wanderings actually go to a much better place than could ever have been expected. This hopefully is one.
Backporch - Amplifiers are easier......they are manufactured components with tolerances. All you have to do is use the same components with the same tolerances. Marshall for example from scratch engineered the transformers for its anniversary bluesbreaker combo.....using the same alloys and same processes used for the original.
Valves are harder......but there is so much variation and they last so short that you cannot isolate the tone of an amp to a short-lived tube.
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