Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
- Thread starter dpaterson
- Start date
devastone
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
LLL said DS-1, not SD-1, they are quite different.
LLL said DS-1, not SD-1, they are quite different.
dpaterson
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Yip.
That is MOST CERTAINLY how it's done (he's even got the pinch harmonics down perfect)!!! As I said. AMAZING.
Thank's for pointing that out @devastone i.e. I keep forgetting that (only because I read somewhere that Vivian used an SD-1 but a) who knows and b) who cares if that's the tone that prompted this thread).
As I said earlier today: now we're getting down to business here!!!
Admittedly I bought my first Marshall CODE simply because it was a Marshall. I also had no experience with modelling amps. whatsoever (no experience with amp. sim. software either at that time) so I figured well this is obviously where things are going nowadays (and so on an so forth). Also and sadly back then (this almost two years ago now) I had promised myself that THIS time around I was going to buy ONE guitar and ONE amp. and only once I'd gotten every single song and solo under my belt would I only THEN start looking at the rest. At no point was it even on the cards to record stuff or anything like that. But, unfortunately, things took a wrong turn what with all these new "toys" (although, as per my LONG post of earlier today, I use the words "unfortunately" and "wrong" reservedly however).
VERY good info. and advice @kinswebe. Thank you. All makes a LOT of sense. And you've "hit the nail on the head" insofar as "compromised tone" is concerned. Very very good description. I'm not going to run out RIGHT NOW and dump all my CODE amps. This I have to be honest about. I'm prepared to spend a few more $$$ on testing and replacing speakers to see what happens. Marshall is also due to release a firmware update for these amps. soon and MAYBE that improves matters (dunno if you all know but for the sake of interest: the modelling software is from Softube who SEEM to have a decent reputation) (Craig Goldie punts them enough anyway). But. Who knows. Will see. Not long to wait now I don't think. And may never get that tone from them. But it makes sense and would be prudent to wait for a month or so and in the meantime change a speaker or two at the beginning of next year. But whatever happens: we have ALL the detail required to get a REALLY REALLY good Vivian Campbell tone in the future if this Marshall CODE thing doesn't work out. And for now: if I am just able to get (even close) to LLL's tone on that audio using BIAS FX (and whatever else) then so be it. It sure will tide me over until "the big time".
Anyway. And thanks to EVERYONE on these threads: a LOT of things have come up and been addressed and resolved (WAY more than simply trying to get Vivian's tone). And for this I thank everyone.
On the topic of the thread: at this point in time I'm afraid my mind is still not quite made up as to just how much of a difference the pickups make. If forced to make a statement on this right now: at THIS time I'd have to say "not much". However: it could very well be that there is HUGE difference in tone between the different pickups BUT given my current equipment (in particular my Marshall CODE amps.) I'm just not able to HEAR the difference i.e. it could very well be that they're just "filtering" or "flattening" whatever sound is being fed to them.
But again: thanks everyone. Really very much thank you. A LOT of good stuff on these threads.
Regards,
Dale.
P.S.
And to all the "naysayers" here it is again!!! LOL!!!
Yip.
That is MOST CERTAINLY how it's done (he's even got the pinch harmonics down perfect)!!! As I said. AMAZING.
Thank's for pointing that out @devastone i.e. I keep forgetting that (only because I read somewhere that Vivian used an SD-1 but a) who knows and b) who cares if that's the tone that prompted this thread).
Thank you and excellent input and advice.
As I said earlier today: now we're getting down to business here!!!
Admittedly I bought my first Marshall CODE simply because it was a Marshall. I also had no experience with modelling amps. whatsoever (no experience with amp. sim. software either at that time) so I figured well this is obviously where things are going nowadays (and so on an so forth). Also and sadly back then (this almost two years ago now) I had promised myself that THIS time around I was going to buy ONE guitar and ONE amp. and only once I'd gotten every single song and solo under my belt would I only THEN start looking at the rest. At no point was it even on the cards to record stuff or anything like that. But, unfortunately, things took a wrong turn what with all these new "toys" (although, as per my LONG post of earlier today, I use the words "unfortunately" and "wrong" reservedly however).
VERY good info. and advice @kinswebe. Thank you. All makes a LOT of sense. And you've "hit the nail on the head" insofar as "compromised tone" is concerned. Very very good description. I'm not going to run out RIGHT NOW and dump all my CODE amps. This I have to be honest about. I'm prepared to spend a few more $$$ on testing and replacing speakers to see what happens. Marshall is also due to release a firmware update for these amps. soon and MAYBE that improves matters (dunno if you all know but for the sake of interest: the modelling software is from Softube who SEEM to have a decent reputation) (Craig Goldie punts them enough anyway). But. Who knows. Will see. Not long to wait now I don't think. And may never get that tone from them. But it makes sense and would be prudent to wait for a month or so and in the meantime change a speaker or two at the beginning of next year. But whatever happens: we have ALL the detail required to get a REALLY REALLY good Vivian Campbell tone in the future if this Marshall CODE thing doesn't work out. And for now: if I am just able to get (even close) to LLL's tone on that audio using BIAS FX (and whatever else) then so be it. It sure will tide me over until "the big time".
Anyway. And thanks to EVERYONE on these threads: a LOT of things have come up and been addressed and resolved (WAY more than simply trying to get Vivian's tone). And for this I thank everyone.
On the topic of the thread: at this point in time I'm afraid my mind is still not quite made up as to just how much of a difference the pickups make. If forced to make a statement on this right now: at THIS time I'd have to say "not much". However: it could very well be that there is HUGE difference in tone between the different pickups BUT given my current equipment (in particular my Marshall CODE amps.) I'm just not able to HEAR the difference i.e. it could very well be that they're just "filtering" or "flattening" whatever sound is being fed to them.
But again: thanks everyone. Really very much thank you. A LOT of good stuff on these threads.
Regards,
Dale.
P.S.
And to all the "naysayers" here it is again!!! LOL!!!
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dpaterson
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Jeepers!!! Lightbulb moment!!!
Here's a possible TEMPORARY solution:
Guitar (DM SD or SD Invader) (you all know the story well by now)
|
Audio Interface
|
VSTs (BIAS FX and/or whatever else is needed) (thanks again LLL)
|
Stereo Out from Audio Interface to L + R Marshall CODE50 L + R (amps. on CLEAN settings i.e. all FX bypassed) (either by instrument in with reamper to convert line level to instrument level OR by line in on the amps.)
OR
Guitar (DM SD or SD Invader) (you all know the story well by now)
|
Audio Interface
|
VSTs (BIAS FX and/or whatever else is needed) (thanks again LLL)
|
Stereo Out to Mixer to PA
Potential pitfalls:
Latency (although I can get down to 1ms and even slightly less without glitches depending of course on CPU load at the time).
Unwanted coloring of the tone by the amps. (although because no effects are in use no problem with VST EQ and noise levels should be fine too as no amp. gain or distortion being used). On the other hand: the amps. and cabs. may give the VST tone a bit of an "amp. tone".
By no means elegant. And would not trust the reliability of this config. for live. But hell: maybe I can really get some Dio/Campbell stuff down and at very least record it for posterity. Sure would make me feel very good about life in general I can tell ya!!! LOL!!!
Regards,
Dale.
Jeepers!!! Lightbulb moment!!!
Here's a possible TEMPORARY solution:
Guitar (DM SD or SD Invader) (you all know the story well by now)
|
Audio Interface
|
VSTs (BIAS FX and/or whatever else is needed) (thanks again LLL)
|
Stereo Out from Audio Interface to L + R Marshall CODE50 L + R (amps. on CLEAN settings i.e. all FX bypassed) (either by instrument in with reamper to convert line level to instrument level OR by line in on the amps.)
OR
Guitar (DM SD or SD Invader) (you all know the story well by now)
|
Audio Interface
|
VSTs (BIAS FX and/or whatever else is needed) (thanks again LLL)
|
Stereo Out to Mixer to PA
Potential pitfalls:
Latency (although I can get down to 1ms and even slightly less without glitches depending of course on CPU load at the time).
Unwanted coloring of the tone by the amps. (although because no effects are in use no problem with VST EQ and noise levels should be fine too as no amp. gain or distortion being used). On the other hand: the amps. and cabs. may give the VST tone a bit of an "amp. tone".
By no means elegant. And would not trust the reliability of this config. for live. But hell: maybe I can really get some Dio/Campbell stuff down and at very least record it for posterity. Sure would make me feel very good about life in general I can tell ya!!! LOL!!!
Regards,
Dale.
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51501984
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
This thread is hitting the status of EVH tone threads back in 2011 & 2012 LOL . OP I couldn't read thru all your posts and I don't know if your in a position to buy new gear but have you ever thought about sticking a JB in one of your guitars , getting a hot rodded Marshall type amp , TS style boost pedal , maybe a 2x12 with greenbacks. Thats pretty much the gear I've got and when I'm jamming on Dio/Viv tunes its more than satisfying , I can't solo like Viv though. It might not be practical to go out and spend a good chunk of change on all that but just thought I`d throw it out there. Good luck
This thread is hitting the status of EVH tone threads back in 2011 & 2012 LOL . OP I couldn't read thru all your posts and I don't know if your in a position to buy new gear but have you ever thought about sticking a JB in one of your guitars , getting a hot rodded Marshall type amp , TS style boost pedal , maybe a 2x12 with greenbacks. Thats pretty much the gear I've got and when I'm jamming on Dio/Viv tunes its more than satisfying , I can't solo like Viv though. It might not be practical to go out and spend a good chunk of change on all that but just thought I`d throw it out there. Good luck
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Gtrjunior
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
We have already been down that road...and for the record I 100% agree with you....but my opinion isn’t what matters, apparently.
Another forum member bashed me for my insistence on putting a JB in the bridge. So there’s that.
We have already been down that road...and for the record I 100% agree with you....but my opinion isn’t what matters, apparently.
Another forum member bashed me for my insistence on putting a JB in the bridge. So there’s that.
51501984
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
I'm pretty sure you've got a Splawn Quick Rod ? I've got a Splawn SS EL34 and 2 Splawn cabs , love the Splawn and pretty affordable for the quality and tone you get from them
I'm pretty sure you've got a Splawn Quick Rod ? I've got a Splawn SS EL34 and 2 Splawn cabs , love the Splawn and pretty affordable for the quality and tone you get from them
dpaterson
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Hello.
Only joking. I realise some people have lives and more important things to do. Like practice and jam and gig. You know: "normal" like!!! LOL!!!
I'm not even sure I could begin to summarise this thread. But suffice to say: yeh I think it's all been covered (ad nauseam).
And while a few may not agree: I reckon there is some decent sh*t on this thread (not limited to the topic by any means).
So when are we gonna get some Dio/Campbell samples??? I'm running a competition now (seems fitting after all this does it not) i.e. let's see who comes closest to Vivian's 1983/1984 Dio tone with their CURRENT gear. Chops don't count (only because I'm not there yet myself!!! LOL!!!). And the prize is.........
Your opinion matters greatly. And I cannot thank you enough for your input (and for humoring me on occasion).
Regards,
Dale.
Hello.
WHAT??? You've not read the thread??? You're kidding right??? LOL!!! A fair chunk of my life is embedded in this thread I'll have you know!!! LOL!!! (And I ain't getting any younger so every minute counts).
Only joking. I realise some people have lives and more important things to do. Like practice and jam and gig. You know: "normal" like!!! LOL!!!
I'm not even sure I could begin to summarise this thread. But suffice to say: yeh I think it's all been covered (ad nauseam).
And while a few may not agree: I reckon there is some decent sh*t on this thread (not limited to the topic by any means).
So when are we gonna get some Dio/Campbell samples??? I'm running a competition now (seems fitting after all this does it not) i.e. let's see who comes closest to Vivian's 1983/1984 Dio tone with their CURRENT gear. Chops don't count (only because I'm not there yet myself!!! LOL!!!). And the prize is.........
Your opinion matters greatly. And I cannot thank you enough for your input (and for humoring me on occasion).
Regards,
Dale.
Gtrjunior
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Yes I do! Good memory!!
I LOVE it.
I just bought a Friedman buxom boost for it. It’s the single best addition to my signal chain yet. It’s an amazing pedal. I’d highly recommend it.
Yes I do! Good memory!!
I LOVE it.
I just bought a Friedman buxom boost for it. It’s the single best addition to my signal chain yet. It’s an amazing pedal. I’d highly recommend it.
freefrog
Well-known member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
A bit OT but this article says something about Vivian Campbell and wireless systems:
https://www.vintageguitar.com/10865/thin-lizzys-scott-gorham-and-vivian-campbell/
FWIW (the usual 2 cents).
A bit OT but this article says something about Vivian Campbell and wireless systems:
https://www.vintageguitar.com/10865/thin-lizzys-scott-gorham-and-vivian-campbell/
FWIW (the usual 2 cents).
LLL
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
I use the UA 2-610 for mic'ing but has 2x line ins as well. I could just use the EMU-1820m (computer interface) input with my guitar and I'd get similar results.
I would definitely say UA 2-610 not needed; for me (and no way to conclusively prove it) I think it helps more with the "tube amp feel" more than anything.
BIAS AMP 2 should have a JCM800 model... but I don't BIAS AMP 2. Don't see why they wouldn't have a JCM800 model.
BOSS DS-1 (or VST version of it) necessary for Holy Diver album guitar tone accuracy, IMO.
I use the UA 2-610 for mic'ing but has 2x line ins as well. I could just use the EMU-1820m (computer interface) input with my guitar and I'd get similar results.
I would definitely say UA 2-610 not needed; for me (and no way to conclusively prove it) I think it helps more with the "tube amp feel" more than anything.
BIAS AMP 2 should have a JCM800 model... but I don't BIAS AMP 2. Don't see why they wouldn't have a JCM800 model.
BOSS DS-1 (or VST version of it) necessary for Holy Diver album guitar tone accuracy, IMO.
LLL
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Alternatively using physical gear:
guitar
|
BOSS DS-1
|
JCM800 (or similar) loaded down, lined out
|
10 Band stompbox EQ or if rack, 32-band rack EQ (for post-powertube tone shaping)
|
power amp
|
speakers (Celestion G12-65s or similar)
Alternatively using physical gear:
guitar
|
BOSS DS-1
|
JCM800 (or similar) loaded down, lined out
|
10 Band stompbox EQ or if rack, 32-band rack EQ (for post-powertube tone shaping)
|
power amp
|
speakers (Celestion G12-65s or similar)
51501984
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
I see you over at the Splawn forums . I was using the Buxom Boost for a while , definitely a killer versatile boost. Right now for boosts I'm using a Seymour Duncan 805 and a Spark Boost mini
I see you over at the Splawn forums . I was using the Buxom Boost for a while , definitely a killer versatile boost. Right now for boosts I'm using a Seymour Duncan 805 and a Spark Boost mini
Gtrjunior
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
I didn’t know you were on the Splawn board...what’s your name there?
I didn’t know you were on the Splawn board...what’s your name there?
Obsessive Compulsive
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Still using that cheap ass EMU soundcard? I ditched mine two years ago and replaced it with Steinberg UR824; no glitches, no conflict with the motherboard and all that crap.
I think it's just ridiculous that you pair a super expensive UA tube preamp with that ancient history EMU.
Still using that cheap ass EMU soundcard? I ditched mine two years ago and replaced it with Steinberg UR824; no glitches, no conflict with the motherboard and all that crap.
I think it's just ridiculous that you pair a super expensive UA tube preamp with that ancient history EMU.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
When it takes 155 essay-length posts to ‘nail’ the tone on “Rainbow in the Dark”, this forum has just been slow-trolled all the way back to 1983.
When it takes 155 essay-length posts to ‘nail’ the tone on “Rainbow in the Dark”, this forum has just been slow-trolled all the way back to 1983.
LLL
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Aside from a cap job I did last year (3 of the power supply caps), it's worked flawlessly throughout its 15 year history.
Never had any glitches nor mobo conflicts - running at 2ms latency.
For a pro-sumer piece of gear, it's always sounded great. It used the same DACs as were found in the ProTools systems of the time.
It wasn't that cheap when it came out, either - about $500 (1820m version - "m" designating "mastering grade"). The breakout box
has a ton of connections too. Awesome product for an awesome price.
Anyhoo, regardless of the price of whatever gear, if it sounds good, it is good.
Aside from a cap job I did last year (3 of the power supply caps), it's worked flawlessly throughout its 15 year history.
Never had any glitches nor mobo conflicts - running at 2ms latency.
For a pro-sumer piece of gear, it's always sounded great. It used the same DACs as were found in the ProTools systems of the time.
It wasn't that cheap when it came out, either - about $500 (1820m version - "m" designating "mastering grade"). The breakout box
has a ton of connections too. Awesome product for an awesome price.
Anyhoo, regardless of the price of whatever gear, if it sounds good, it is good.
LLL
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
And yet no one's pressing your face up to the monitor forcing you to read it.
And yet no one's pressing your face up to the monitor forcing you to read it.
dpaterson
New member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Good morning all.
Anyway. Moving the f*ck on.
@LLL
Thanks again for your efforts and for sharing.
BIAS AMP 2 does have a "British Lead 800" amp. and you have a choice of Celestion IRs. But there's way too many variables. And it sure don't sound anything like what you have put together. But no worries. As I said: temporary solution for me (not tried it yet though but shall do so shortly).
@51501984 and @Gtrjunior
I'd never even heard of Splawn until reading your posts and looking them up. Not half bad lemme tell ya. Checked out their website and watched/listened to some of those videos. "Sounds like JCM800 to me". Pretty sure they're not available locally though. But that's never stopped me!!! LOL!!! Certainly food for thought. If nothing else: nice to know about them.
@freefrog
Very interesting (Viv's take on wireless). Ironic though (this in spite of my initial thoughts on the subject): my tone is actually better with my wireless system than it is with cable (this after extensive testing). It seems to somehow be "compressing" the guitar signal and it also seems to be making up for (possible???) shortcomings in the amp. tone. Go figure.
Took a bit of a step back yesterday (from the threads and everything else) and listened to some stuff that I'd recorded. Must say that my tone ain't half bad now (with the DM SD in parallel that is). Not 1983/1984 Dio/Campbell. If I were forced to categorise my tone right now: I'd say it's closer to Tony Iommi with Dio in Heaven and Hell (the band that is). Listen to the song "Bible Black". That's where I'm at thus far upon close scrutiny late yesterday and last night. Nothing to complain about or be unhappy about let's face it. Matter of fact I could even afford to take some tops down and notch resonance up a tad.
Anyways. SD Invader on its way I'm told this morning. Will test and then decide and then wrap this all up. All good.
Thanks everyone.
Chat soonest.
Regards,
Dale.
Good morning all.
If that's all you got from this thread then oh well.........
Anyway. Moving the f*ck on.
@LLL
Thanks again for your efforts and for sharing.
BIAS AMP 2 does have a "British Lead 800" amp. and you have a choice of Celestion IRs. But there's way too many variables. And it sure don't sound anything like what you have put together. But no worries. As I said: temporary solution for me (not tried it yet though but shall do so shortly).
@51501984 and @Gtrjunior
I'd never even heard of Splawn until reading your posts and looking them up. Not half bad lemme tell ya. Checked out their website and watched/listened to some of those videos. "Sounds like JCM800 to me". Pretty sure they're not available locally though. But that's never stopped me!!! LOL!!! Certainly food for thought. If nothing else: nice to know about them.
@freefrog
Very interesting (Viv's take on wireless). Ironic though (this in spite of my initial thoughts on the subject): my tone is actually better with my wireless system than it is with cable (this after extensive testing). It seems to somehow be "compressing" the guitar signal and it also seems to be making up for (possible???) shortcomings in the amp. tone. Go figure.
Took a bit of a step back yesterday (from the threads and everything else) and listened to some stuff that I'd recorded. Must say that my tone ain't half bad now (with the DM SD in parallel that is). Not 1983/1984 Dio/Campbell. If I were forced to categorise my tone right now: I'd say it's closer to Tony Iommi with Dio in Heaven and Hell (the band that is). Listen to the song "Bible Black". That's where I'm at thus far upon close scrutiny late yesterday and last night. Nothing to complain about or be unhappy about let's face it. Matter of fact I could even afford to take some tops down and notch resonance up a tad.
Anyways. SD Invader on its way I'm told this morning. Will test and then decide and then wrap this all up. All good.
Thanks everyone.
Chat soonest.
Regards,
Dale.
freefrog
Well-known member
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups
Please, remember that none of my answers has never been supposed to criticize your choices and tastes : even implicitely, it's not the case. All my posts are mere humble attempts to reply to your initial issue: the lack of juicy mids (if I've understood correctly).
I totally understand why the tone of a passive pickup can appear as "better" through a transmitter: if it avoids cable capacitance, it just sends a purer, clearer and even stronger signal to the amp or pedalboard. Just like in the YT vid dedicated to the "Zerocap cable", which does exactly the same thing.
I also know for a fact what I've tried to explain in this thread somewhere above: the absence of cable capacitance gives more sparkle/ crispness... but defeats more or less this soft mid centric sonic envelope that you appear to search.
SIDE NOTES:
1-Several of my own guitars contain home made circuits that I've designed to obtain higher pitched resonant peaks... and I use sometimes ultra low capacitance cable (or even a home made preamp directly plugged in the output jack). So I don't necessarily "swear" by highly capacitive wires... but I'm still glad to have switchable capacitive loads to soften my Strats when I plug them in my Marshall (which is not a digital one, as a matter of fact);
2-Saturday night, I've played as a guest with a band whose musicians were all using basic radio transmitters. Even though the guitarist had P90 style pickups, a crowded tone shaping pedalboard and a theoretically dark sounding combo, his tone was super bright... without much mids. I can't claim to have been surprised.
FWIW : probably less than 2 cents despite (or because of) the "essay length" of this new post - LOL!...
Please, remember that none of my answers has never been supposed to criticize your choices and tastes : even implicitely, it's not the case. All my posts are mere humble attempts to reply to your initial issue: the lack of juicy mids (if I've understood correctly).
I totally understand why the tone of a passive pickup can appear as "better" through a transmitter: if it avoids cable capacitance, it just sends a purer, clearer and even stronger signal to the amp or pedalboard. Just like in the YT vid dedicated to the "Zerocap cable", which does exactly the same thing.
I also know for a fact what I've tried to explain in this thread somewhere above: the absence of cable capacitance gives more sparkle/ crispness... but defeats more or less this soft mid centric sonic envelope that you appear to search.
SIDE NOTES:
1-Several of my own guitars contain home made circuits that I've designed to obtain higher pitched resonant peaks... and I use sometimes ultra low capacitance cable (or even a home made preamp directly plugged in the output jack). So I don't necessarily "swear" by highly capacitive wires... but I'm still glad to have switchable capacitive loads to soften my Strats when I plug them in my Marshall (which is not a digital one, as a matter of fact);
2-Saturday night, I've played as a guest with a band whose musicians were all using basic radio transmitters. Even though the guitarist had P90 style pickups, a crowded tone shaping pedalboard and a theoretically dark sounding combo, his tone was super bright... without much mids. I can't claim to have been surprised.
FWIW : probably less than 2 cents despite (or because of) the "essay length" of this new post - LOL!...
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