Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hi freefrog.

Thanks very much (as always) for the reply and the info.

I've just ordered pickup wire and 270kΩ and 470kΩ resistors (1/4 watt / 5% tolerance). Are these resistors correct for testing purposes (simulating tone pot)???

I hope you get this message soon because I forgot to order caps. What caps. should I order to simulate, say, a 3ft. and a 5ft. guitar cable (I'll try find your other post on this but if you could just let me know quick so that I can add the caps. to my order).

Thanks again.

Regards,

Dale.

P.S.

No rush. Amazon will not ship caps. here for some reason. Love it when you go through the whole order process only then at the end to be told "sorry". Will have to get them locally. But yeh: lemme know what caps. I can try to simulate the capacitance of say a 3ft., 5ft, and 10ft. guitar cable. I found your other post so just checking i.e. in that post you do say that a 900pF cap. should simulate the capacitance of a 20ft. guitar cable. Is that correct (I can just divide that capacitance value for shorter lengths if it's correct).

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

BIAS AMP 2 does have a "British Lead 800" amp. and you have a choice of Celestion IRs. But there's way too many variables. And it sure don't sound anything like what you have put together. But no worries.

Yep - British Lead 800. They pulled that over to BIAS AMP 2 then.

I kept the VST amp stock (no tweaking) and used it like I do a real Marshall: dimed on everything w/ bass control off.

I used Celestion G12-65s however for the speaker iR.

Gotta have that BOSS DS-1 in front

And the real key is the EQ shaping "at the console" after the virtual amp & speaker. I've been trying to get more precise versus my last contribution.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

You seriously mean to tell me you can get it closer (more precise)??? LOL!!!

Busy downloading BIAS FX now to see what gives. Not sure if the demo will provide the Celestion IRs but I must say that BIAS support is very accommodating so I’m sure they’ll help out if needs be. No point in trying with BIAS AMP 2 as it doesn’t have the pedal. Just wanna be careful here is all. None of these things have done much for me I’m afraid and I have spent a small fortune on all of them. But hey: if it works nice and I get YOUR tone (forget Vivian!!! LOL!!!) well then no problem and I will cough the $$$ no problem. Must say that the BIAS stuff in possibly the best. No idea why everybody banged on about Amplitube. Guitar Rig is alright. Still. That little JamVOX thing for $99 amazes me. Right out of the box you get useable stereo tones. Oh and the WAVES PRS Supermodels. They pretty darn good. WAVES GTR 3??? Hmmmnnn... Dunno. But I have to be honest and say I have not given that much time to all of these things (certainly nowhere near the time I have put into my amp. settings). I get too frustrated and impatient with them i.e. if I cannot get an even half decent tone right out the of the gate then I lose interest (and 99% of all of the factory the presets in these things are abhorrent and that’s being kind).

What settings are you using for the distortion pedal??? I know with the actual physical overdrive pedal it works alright with the drive being just about minimum and tone in the middle (with my amps. that is) (although the CODE’s built in Guv’nor distortion is much nicer).

But hey. Thanks for all your trouble. Damn decent of you.

Regards,

Dale.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.


@LLL

I just noticed something in the "shopping list":

Double tracked (naturally) - panned wide L & R.

Are you saying that you double tracked this???


Also this Waves plugin:

Waves EQ Classic (32 band EQ... tweaked by ear)

Only Waves EQ I can find is the Waves "GEQ Graphic Equalizer" (30 band) (although I do have a bunch of other EQ plugins but was just wondering is all).


Regards,

Dale.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Ok, I watched the video.

That sounds like a familiar big rock sound (ala Iron Maiden vein)

I'd go Strat with Dimarzio Super Distortion into either a TS, BOSS OD, MXR + or RAT pedal -but using them primarily for the gain boost without saturating the sound with the drive so that you hit the input of a Marshall 100W with a ton of pretty clear but boosted tone and let the Marshall dirty it up dramatically and out to some 75W Celestions.

That's what it sounds like to me.

Oh yeah, forgot about Ronnie's drama hands.... that was fun!

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.


@LLL

I just noticed something in the "shopping list":



Are you saying that you double tracked this???


Also this Waves plugin:



Only Waves EQ I can find is the Waves "GEQ Graphic Equalizer" (30 band) (although I do have a bunch of other EQ plugins but was just wondering is all).


Regards,

Dale.

Yes I doubled tracked ("naturally" - e.g. I played and recorded 2 separate tracks, then pan wide L&R)

Yes GEQ is the one... has "classic" in the name too (there's a "modern" alternate)

e.g. this one:

https://www.waves.com/plugins/geq-graphic-equalizer

A "surgeon's tool" indeed. I use it all the time.

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

You seriously mean to tell me you can get it closer (more precise)??? LOL!!!

Busy downloading BIAS FX now to see what gives. Not sure if the demo will provide the Celestion IRs but I must say that BIAS support is very accommodating so I’m sure they’ll help out if needs be. No point in trying with BIAS AMP 2 as it doesn’t have the pedal. Just wanna be careful here is all. None of these things have done much for me I’m afraid and I have spent a small fortune on all of them. But hey: if it works nice and I get YOUR tone (forget Vivian!!! LOL!!!) well then no problem and I will cough the $$$ no problem. Must say that the BIAS stuff in possibly the best. No idea why everybody banged on about Amplitube. Guitar Rig is alright. Still. That little JamVOX thing for $99 amazes me. Right out of the box you get useable stereo tones. Oh and the WAVES PRS Supermodels. They pretty darn good. WAVES GTR 3??? Hmmmnnn... Dunno. But I have to be honest and say I have not given that much time to all of these things (certainly nowhere near the time I have put into my amp. settings). I get too frustrated and impatient with them i.e. if I cannot get an even half decent tone right out the of the gate then I lose interest (and 99% of all of the factory the presets in these things are abhorrent and that’s being kind).

What settings are you using for the distortion pedal??? I know with the actual physical overdrive pedal it works alright with the drive being just about minimum and tone in the middle (with my amps. that is) (although the CODE’s built in Guv’nor distortion is much nicer).

But hey. Thanks for all your trouble. Damn decent of you.

Regards,

Dale.

BIAS FX has the BOSS DS-1 - called "DSONE"; orange box. That's what I used.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2UBfvqgU_n5SHNrM09Qb3JpUGs/view

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

What settings are you using for the distortion pedal???

Tone - halfway
Level - cranked
Dist - 2.0 (BIAS FX increment) or just a hair above off

 

[oilpit]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Oh and please before I go any further: could somebody please give me the correct term to use for a tone with lots of bass and lots of treble but no mids. Apparently my definition of "scooped" is incorrect.

That's not your definition of "scooped" that's your definition of "dark"

Source:

The (black) Jackson is "dark" (by my definition anyway) i.e. has loads of bass and treble but scooped mids.

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Here's what my ear tells me is more accurate to the record tone:

Rainbow In The Dark 2:


...and a couple xtra

Holy Diver:


Straight Through The Heart:

 

[freefrog]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Dale, to reply to your question without polluting your topic, I've sent you a PM.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Good morning all.


@freefrog

Yip. Got the PM. And thanks. Replied to you via PM. BUT: I think you should put that info. on the thread (it's been off topic more times and I can count anyway) i.e. it's really very useful information and you never know who may stumble across this thread in the future and find the info. to be of great benefit.


@LLL

I am speechless actually. You absolutely nailed it. Well done. Dunno what else to say actually. That is GOOD sound and is as close to (if not exact) to the studio tone. And every time I listen to your stuff I'm expecting Ronnie's voice to cut through.

For the sake of curiosity what do you think happens here (solo) i.e. it's the most wonderful flipping "gut wrenching" change in tone (which actually is not that accentuated when you listen to the actual recording):

https://youtu.be/aMCAF6_5CME?t=114

(Cannot get the YouTube thingy working this morning for some reason).

I was actually looking at the BIAS mobile stuff yesterday. Could be an option for the future i.e. dispense with the amps. altogether and just put the whole lot through my PA. Sure does give you more control over your tone etc. Not a route I would ever have expected to be exploring but hey: if it works???

Anyway. Got all the BIAS stuff etc. up and running. Will muck about today and see. Only concern is the double tracking (that's why I had to check with you) i.e. not something you can do live but I'm pretty sure I can ALMOST mimic that now given all the mucking about I've done with delays etc. etc. etc. Maybe even give this darn TC Electronic MIMIQ another shot (I'm now able to go from audio interface, "out of the box" to a pedal for example, and then "back in the box") (this because the MIMIQ is supposed to go POST gain and distortion and not up front in the chain i.e. sounds horrid up front).

Anyways. As I noted to @freefrog: comes early next year I can now make an informed decision as to what I keep and what I dispense with and what to replace. While I know these threads have been a "pain in the you-know-what" for some: I personally have learned a lot (a lot more than just how to get Vivian's tone) i.e. stuff I'd never knew about before or would have even bothered about before and all that contributes to a better tone and overall sound (whether it be Vivian's tone or any other tone). And I'm willing to be that some of the info. shared on these threads has got more than one or two other people "thinking" (but probably will not admit it for fear of ridiculed thanks to some).

Oh well. Lemme go do some playing and experimenting etc. If I don't get it right: I'll send you the drum tracks (it goes without saying of course that I have Vinnie Appice's kit in BFD3 which is 100% Dio/Appice 1983/1984 I assure you) and YOU can be the star!!! LOL!!! I'll even throw in the keyboards and Jimmy's base line myself. Anybody wanna collaborate and try cover Dio's voice??? LOL!!! Very "slippery slope" though I must warn ya!!! LOL!!!. I'll tell ya this for nothing though: you've come closer than "Dio Disciples" or "Last In Line" tonewise!!!


@NegativeEase

Ok, I watched the video.

That sounds like a familiar big rock sound (ala Iron Maiden vein)

I'd go Strat with Dimarzio Super Distortion into either a TS, BOSS OD, MXR + or RAT pedal -but using them primarily for the gain boost without saturating the sound with the drive so that you hit the input of a Marshall 100W with a ton of pretty clear but boosted tone and let the Marshall dirty it up dramatically and out to some 75W Celestions.

That's what it sounds like to me.

Oh yeah, forgot about Ronnie's drama hands.... that was fun!

"Ronnie's drama hands"!!! LOL!!! Another Dio fan I take it??? Good stuff hey. The best. Don't make 'em that way anymore.

Thanks for the info. I think we've covered every possible permutation (and then some) of Vivian's gear on this thread!!! LOL!!!

Thanks for the post.


Thanks again (everyone).

Regards,

Dale.

P.S.

Just for fun here's (below) the drum track for the first few bars of "Heaven and Hell" this straight and unprocessed from BFD3/Vinnie Appice Kit. The realism is unbelievable. "Knock it around" a bit with a Melda plugin or two or iZotope Neutron Advanced and/or iZotope Ozone Advanced and put it through a PA with two subs.........

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

For the sake of curiosity what do you think happens here (solo) i.e. it's the most wonderful flipping "gut wrenching" change in tone (which actually is not that accentuated when you listen to the actual recording):

https://youtu.be/aMCAF6_5CME?t=114

Easy - the solo has more mids. I'd take the rhythm EQ I used and boost 500Hz, 800Hz to taste (or thereabouts).

I was actually looking at the BIAS mobile stuff yesterday. Could be an option for the future i.e. dispense with the amps. altogether and just put the whole lot through my PA. Sure does give you more control over your tone etc. Not a route I would ever have expected to be exploring but hey: if it works???

Anyway. Got all the BIAS stuff etc. up and running. Will muck about today and see. Only concern is the double tracking (that's why I had to check with you) i.e. not something you can do live but I'm pretty sure I can ALMOST mimic that now given all the mucking about I've done with delays etc. etc. etc. Maybe even give this darn TC Electronic MIMIQ another shot (I'm now able to go from audio interface, "out of the box" to a pedal for example, and then "back in the box") (this because the MIMIQ is supposed to go POST gain and distortion and not up front in the chain i.e. sounds horrid up front).

I'm not sure about their mobile stuff, but haven't tried myself.

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

The secret is... 11 herbs and spices... :lol:

No really, here's my settings.

BIAS FX's BOSS DS-1 clone - notice "level" cranked, "dist" at 2.0 - e.g. used as a boost


BIAS FX's JCM 800 - no tweaks whatsoever. Everything cranked except Bass off (typical cranked Marshall setting). Speaker bypassed


SIR2 using Ownhammer's Celestion G12-65 speaker iR (Shure SM57 mic)


Waves GEQ Classic mono and settings; this is where the real magic happens - of special note:

125Hz slightly boosted for "cab thump"
200Hz cut for tightening (less bassy mush)
500Hz cut for "less mids more scooped metal"
800Hz cut for "less mids more scooped metal"
1.25K boosted for those "gnarly mids"
2K slightly cut for "upper mid shaping"
3.15K boosted for that "hi-mid hash"
4K slightly boosted for "crunch"
8K left at 0dB (normally I would taper off to around -3dB) for "brightness"

Overall effect - tight, crunchy, biting 80's metal tone that retains some warmth with a little thump

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hey, hey.

KFC??? LOL!!!

You are THE MAN that's for sure.

And they said it couldn't be done!!! LOL!!!

I bought that Waves EQ today. Flipping nice EQ. And a very interesting EQ "curve" you've got there my good man!!! It ain't shy on CPU load though (I go from 0% to about 10% at idle i.e. with nothing more than the EQ loaded but not a train smash).

I'm think I'm lucky in the sense that in BIAS AMP 2 (Elite) I have all the Celestion IRs (quite the variety there) and I say fortunate because you can use amp. configs. in BIAS AMP 2 from within BIAS FX so that's that (also have IRs from what was Rosen Digital Audio now Lancaster Audio and they ain't half bad). BIAS AMP 2 also has "Amp. Matching Technology". I tried it a while back i.e. tried to "Amp. Match" the standard "British Lead 800" with the intro. to "Stand Up And Shout" (only place where just guitars playing) with some success but from what I gather you need to be pretty close to start with as there's only so much it can do really.

And yeh: the BIAS Mobile stuff looks interesting. Essentially all that's needed is an iPad and a compatible interface and you're good to go i.e. out to the mixer and PA and "done and dusted".

Anyways. All good. And thanks again for everything. You can be real proud for pulling this off lemme tell ya. I saw that other thread on tone a bit earlier today. Really don't understand why everybody says that '80's rock is a "generic" tone. No it ain't. Each of those bands had there own nuanced tone and sound and this is no different (my personal Dio/Campbell bias aside and that's quite a statement coming from me).

Thanks again.

Regards,

Dale.

P.S.

Thanks again for providing everything in minute detail. As I said before: very decent of you to have done all this. Thanks for taking the time and going to the effort.

 

[oilpit]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

And they said it couldn't be done!!! LOL!!!

People have been giving you simple, solid advice on how to achieve your tone since page one of this thread.

Thanks again for providing everything in minute detail. As I said before: very decent of you to have done all this. Thanks for taking the time and going to the effort.

Ironic considering that you ignored almost all of it.


This thread is the perfect example of somebody who just wants to drag conversation on for as long as possible.

 

[donaldr]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

By the way @devastone (thanks for the post by the way): the Marshall CODE amps. have guitar cab. speakers in them and not FRFR speakers (this confirmed by Marshall themselves in a direct response to myself at the beginning of this week). Apparently they were voiced specifically for the CODE range but they are definitely guitar cab. speakers. They say they were specifically voiced for the CODE range an not based on a particular model of Celestion (or anything else for that matter).

Don't want to steal credit out of @devastone but I was the one saying your Code amp might not have an FRFR speaker

@dpaterson: Personally I would not change the speaker in your Marshall Code, that will not get you closer to Vivian Campbell sound. This will only give you another sound out of the Code. Most modelling amps don't use an FRFR speaker, they use a custom speaker with internal EQ to compensate for the speaker response and the model amp/cab they want to emulate. Just have a look and there's a bunch using Celestion Seventy80 which is a guitar speaker, not an FRFR.

BTW forget about negative comments (there will always be) and continue your quest for the sound you want. I think you learned a lot in the process and that will be useful for you in the future
I haven't read the last few pages but it seems that a software modeler was doing the job.
That's what I said long time ago: get a modeler if you want to replicate a sound. You will have a bunch of tools (amps, eq, fx, cabs) to play with which is almost impossible with real equipment. You will also find that to get a specific sound you don't have to necessarily use what the artist is/was using (sometime its amps/fx/cabs are modded and have gone thru a lot of processing/preamps/mics in the studio and even live it's not going direct to CD).
My recommendation: don't spend to much money on software plugins. Get an AxeFX (or Helix or Axe8): same equipment in studio/basement and live.

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hey, hey.

KFC??? LOL!!!

You are THE MAN that's for sure.

And they said it couldn't be done!!! LOL!!!

I bought that Waves EQ today. Flipping nice EQ. And a very interesting EQ "curve" you've got there my good man!!! It ain't shy on CPU load though (I go from 0% to about 10% at idle i.e. with nothing more than the EQ loaded but not a train smash).

I'm think I'm lucky in the sense that in BIAS AMP 2 (Elite) I have all the Celestion IRs (quite the variety there) and I say fortunate because you can use amp. configs. in BIAS AMP 2 from within BIAS FX so that's that (also have IRs from what was Rosen Digital Audio now Lancaster Audio and they ain't half bad). BIAS AMP 2 also has "Amp. Matching Technology". I tried it a while back i.e. tried to "Amp. Match" the standard "British Lead 800" with the intro. to "Stand Up And Shout" (only place where just guitars playing) with some success but from what I gather you need to be pretty close to start with as there's only so much it can do really.

And yeh: the BIAS Mobile stuff looks interesting. Essentially all that's needed is an iPad and a compatible interface and you're good to go i.e. out to the mixer and PA and "done and dusted".

Anyways. All good. And thanks again for everything. You can be real proud for pulling this off lemme tell ya. I saw that other thread on tone a bit earlier today. Really don't understand why everybody says that '80's rock is a "generic" tone. No it ain't. Each of those bands had there own nuanced tone and sound and this is no different (my personal Dio/Campbell bias aside and that's quite a statement coming from me).

Thanks again.

Regards,

Dale.

P.S.

Thanks again for providing everything in minute detail. As I said before: very decent of you to have done all this. Thanks for taking the time and going to the effort.

Notta prob. I'm not the man, just someone who is serious about tone... it's a shame not everyone is. This is a guitar gear forum, after all... makes you wonder what they're doing here in the first place... :lol:

 

[devastone]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Don't want to steal credit out of @devastone but I was the one saying your Code amp might not have an FRFR speaker

No thunder stolen, I actually said that they probably DID have a full range speaker, and I was wrong.

@LLL Playing guitar is about enjoying making music, there are lots of well paid pros that don't know that much about tone. It's all ice cream, if chasing and recreating tones is what brings you joy from the guitar, awesome!!! I have a lot of respect for your tone and playing abilities (I really do, your clips are always impressive). On the other hand, if strumming an acoustic guitar and writing silly songs about cat litter brings someone else joy, then that's awesome too, there is room for all, and if we run out of guitars, there are plenty of factories that can make more.

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

@LLL Playing guitar is about enjoying making music, there are lots of well paid pros that don't know that much about tone. It's all ice cream, if chasing and recreating tones is what brings you joy from the guitar, awesome!!! I have a lot of respect for your tone and playing abilities (I really do, your clips are always impressive). On the other hand, if strumming an acoustic guitar and writing silly songs about cat litter brings someone else joy, then that's awesome too, there is room for all, and if we run out of guitars, there are plenty of factories that can make more.

No doubt (making music).

My statements are regarding those who come into these "how do I get this tone?" threads and start slinging their sour grapes around; there's obviously
some psychological triggering (incompetence, ignorance, lack of passion, lack of seriousness, lack of attention, jealousy, whatever) happening there.

Dude is serious about Viv Campbell tone, they should let him (and others who are serious) talk. Costs them nothing.