What Fishman Fluence won't do

[johnstone]

I've been reading through the posts and asked Fishman technical support a couple of things myself. Here is a list of the things they won't do.
they are wired in phase and you can't wire them out of phase - they are wired in parallel and you can't wire them in series - you can't swap out magnets on them - you can't do a coil split on them.
Now they have two voices but the things they can't do seem to outweigh the two voices.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Not that I particularly care, but you can coil split the humbuckers, and I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to wire them out of phase with respect to each other. I'm sure you can't wire them out of phase with respect to themselves, but that is a tone I'd literally never want on any Humbucker. (North/Stud coil out of phase with South/Screw coil). They also additionally have the HF Tilt and gain reduction options.

(Now looking at your Avatar, I'm guessing you are referring to the Tele pickups, not the HBs, and I can see how they couldn't be series or out of phase. The big draw for me for Teles would be silent operation if the tones were substantially close to the original black guard and white guard pickups tones they are going after)

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Yeah I'm not sure I follow all the assertions, perhaps something was lost in translation?

All Humbuckers can be coil split. Most of them to either coil.

The two HB coils happen to be wired in series with one another. That's how/why the coil split works the same way it does on a passive humbucker. The CT on the humbuckers is like the red/white wires being soldered together on a Duncan. Jump them to ground for one coil, jump them to "hot" (the other end of the coil) for the opposite coil.

I could add to the list of things they can do, but if you've already decided that a phase reversal, magnet swaps, and series telecaster wiring outweigh the two voices, noiselessness, and above all, the TONE of the pickups, then you shouldn't have them. You're right, they aren't your pickups.

They won't get you a record deal either, or a Grammy.

 

[johnstone]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Yeah I'm not sure I follow all the assertions, perhaps something was lost in translation?

All Humbuckers can be coil split. Most of them to either coil.

The two HB coils happen to be wired in series with one another. That's how/why the coil split works the same way it does on a passive humbucker. The CT on the humbuckers is like the red/white wires being soldered together on a Duncan. Jump them to ground for one coil, jump them to "hot" (the other end of the coil) for the opposite coil.

I could add to the list of things they can do, but if you've already decided that a phase reversal, magnet swaps, and series telecaster wiring outweigh the two voices, noiselessness, and above all, the TONE of the pickups, then you shouldn't have them. You're right, they aren't your pickups.

They won't get you a record deal either, or a Grammy.

I looked at my notes and it was posted about Fishman coil splitting it doesn't sound like they can really do it -"When we refer to coil tapping on the Fluence humbuckers, means using one coil at a time versus both. There's no partial tapping into any one coil. Since the preamp determines the resonant voice, partially tapping the coils in humbucking mode would only decrease the output but not affect the tone.

The way we think about it, two coils are permanently wired in series so they can't be split, but you can tap off the signal at different points. When using just one coil on most Fluence humbuckers, there is the usual drop in output and tonal change from the magnetic view of the strings being from one side, however the resonant frequency will not change. With passive pickups, the resonance shifts upward around 40% in frequency when coil tapped.

If achieving a true single coil voice is important, the Fluence Devin Townsend humbuckers have an electronically controlled coil tap feature that also shapes the tone to provide an accurate single coil sound. It's like going from a guitar with active pickups voiced for heavy metal, to a telecaster at the flick of a switch."
"I'm still searching even today for a sound, like the guy that's searching for a home. I haven't been able to find that completely. I'm satisfied at times with the sound of my guitar ... but it is a little sound that I hear but I can't tell anybody about it. I do

 

[johnstone]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

"and above all, the TONE of the pickups" I reread your post and missed that tone comment first time. Well, hmmmm, trying to say this politely, but are you actually so arrogant as to think that starting up Fishman has achieved tones better than Seymour Duncan and the rest of the pickup companies that have been in this for decades? You won't win a Grammy for that but you might just win a Oscar.

 

[Chad]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Why does the OP keep starting all of these Fishman threads? It's starting to look like there's an agenda. We get it. You don't care for these pickups. Why start a new thread every other day about it?

 

[darthphineas]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

are you actually so arrogant as to think that starting up Fishman has achieved tones better than Seymour Duncan and the rest of the pickup companies that have been in this for decades?.

"Starting up Fishman"?

They've been in business about 35 years.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

I looked at my notes and it was posted about Fishman coil splitting it doesn't sound like they can really do it -"When we refer to coil tapping on the Fluence humbuckers, means using one coil at a time versus both. There's no partial tapping into any one coil. Since the preamp determines the resonant voice, partially tapping the coils in humbucking mode would only decrease the output but not affect the tone.

The way we think about it, two coils are permanently wired in series so they can't be split, but you can tap off the signal at different points. When using just one coil on most Fluence humbuckers, there is the usual drop in output and tonal change from the magnetic view of the strings being from one side, however the resonant frequency will not change. With passive pickups, the resonance shifts upward around 40% in frequency when coil tapped.

If achieving a true single coil voice is important, the Fluence Devin Townsend humbuckers have an electronically controlled coil tap feature that also shapes the tone to provide an accurate single coil sound. It's like going from a guitar with active pickups voiced for heavy metal, to a telecaster at the flick of a switch."
"I'm still searching even today for a sound, like the guy that's searching for a home. I haven't been able to find that completely. I'm satisfied at times with the sound of my guitar ... but it is a little sound that I hear but I can't tell anybody about it. I do

You do realize that coil tapping and coil splitting are two completely different things, don't you?

 

[Lampy H]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

"and above all, the TONE of the pickups" I reread your post and missed that tone comment first time. Well, hmmmm, trying to say this politely, but are you actually so arrogant as to think that starting up Fishman has achieved tones better than Seymour Duncan and the rest of the pickup companies that have been in this for decades? You won't win a Grammy for that but you might just win a Oscar.

I consider this an unwarranted insult. Frank implied that tone is more important than any external factor in any pickup, not that you're stupid for being dismissive of his holy grail pickups.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

"and above all, the TONE of the pickups" I reread your post and missed that tone comment first time. Well, hmmmm, trying to say this politely, but are you actually so arrogant as to think that starting up Fishman has achieved tones better than Seymour Duncan and the rest of the pickup companies that have been in this for decades? You won't win a Grammy for that but you might just win a Oscar.

You completely misunderstood what he was saying.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

This thread is pointless and unhelpful to anyone.

OP, I'll tell you what Fluence DOES do...a sh**load more than any other active pickups out there! That's what.

If you need a special active custom-voiced to your particular tastes that features the mag-swapability of a passive and even greater wiring options than any of the Fluence products provide, start up your own company, come up with something original, put it to market and blow us all away...

Otherwise, shoosh it

 

[johnstone]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

"I'll tell you what Fluence DOES do...a s***load more than any other active pickups out there! That's what."

You forgot to tell me what that "s***load" is.
Not building electric guitar pickups using aerospace technology for 35 years, more like 3 1/2 years.
I understand what coil tapping and coil splitting is but not as well as the engineer from Fishman who said that Fluence couldn't coil split.
Please splain to me what he meant.

 

[johnstone]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Why does the OP keep starting all of these Fishman threads? It's starting to look like there's an agenda. We get it. You don't care for these pickups. Why start a new thread every other day about it?

Please see the link that started this thread. Everyone knows frankfalbo is affiliated with Fishman, he has no right to push his very biased opinion on someone who may not realize where it is coming from. The best advice is to try the Fishman and EMG and make his own determination.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?314061-Fishman-Fluence-Classic-or-EMG-57-66

 

[some_dude]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

I have zero interest in Fishman... but I might just go buy some just to sh*t in the OP's Corn-Flakes.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Please see the link that started this thread. Everyone knows frankfalbo is affiliated with Fishman, he has no right to push his very biased opinion on someone who may not realize where it is coming from. The best advice is to try the Fishman and EMG and make his own determination.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?314061-Fishman-Fluence-Classic-or-EMG-57-66

Frank is an extremely helpful and patient guy who has been undeniably integral in making both Seymour Duncan and this forum what they are today. So many people have been helped by him and/or enlightened by his posts that it's impossible to measure.

Although he's now with Fishman, his forum contributions remain substantive and he is a one-man powerhouse of useful information and first-hand experience, regardless of the brand.

Is he a fan of Fluence? Yes. Are others fans of Fluence? Absolutely. Does being a fan and outwardly marketing that perspective make their comments irrelevant? No. So what if he has a good "reason" to push them? They seem to be gaining a following, even among prominent Duncan artists, so there's definitely some justification there.

You, on the other hand, are bordering on being disrespectful, in my opinion, and have contributed little to nothing so far. You harp on Frank for showing "bias", yet your own agenda is blinding you from the value of his input.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

"and above all, the TONE of the pickups" I reread your post and missed that tone comment first time. Well, hmmmm, trying to say this politely, but are you actually so arrogant as to think that starting up Fishman has achieved tones better than Seymour Duncan and the rest of the pickup companies that have been in this for decades?

It has nothing to do with arrogance, not in the least. If you listen to Larry Fishman talk about the project, its his lack of arrogance that kept him from making "regular" electric pickups, when he could have easily done so and grabbed market share from the big 3 at any point over the last decade or two. No other pickup company has the rights to work with this technology. So whatever Fluence CAN do (whether you find that appealing or not) other pickup companies can not do. Would it be arrogant for someone to suggest the latest television set is "better" than a 1975 tube television? Or to suggest that no amount of adjusting that tube television will get you a high definition image?

I've seen you or someone else make this argument before. Such as Fishman is somehow a novice, or that the technology is so new, that we can't possibly know how to optimize it yet. This is a false premise. Who on earth would use an iphone when Motorola has been in the mobile phone game since the beginning? How could Apple possibly be better at it than Nokia? How could anyone like one of Dave Friedman's amps, when Marshall has been making amps since the 60's?! How could Brian Wampler possibly make a better sounding pedal than Boss?

It's a team of engineers and product developers, each with 10, 20, 30, 40 years of experience in these fields. Not to mention working in tandem with the actual aerospace engineers responsible for the technology. To suggest that Fishman's engineering department doesn't understand the technology they're working with, or can't have optimized it by the time of the first product launch, is to be totally ignorant of the skill sets and talents of those involved.

If I were a marketing/sales guy, or part of some social media "street team" then when I spoke about Fluence you could pass it through that filter. Instead, as others have suggested, my involvement on the forum is more on the technical side. I do still help people with questions about all kinds of different brands. I've been a forum member since before I went to work for Seymour Duncan, and throughout my tenure people know me as pretty unbiased in that regard. I speak objectively about all different brands here.

I'd like to think I've earned the reputation that has caused some people to come into this thread in my defense. (thank you everyone) I've taken a lot of lumps from some newer members, and I still come around to try to help make this place valuable. Maybe some just simply don't have any background information about me, or the way I conduct myself. Maybe to a new set of eyes it looks different than the veterans who know me by now. All I can do is be me I guess.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Please see the link that started this thread. Everyone knows frankfalbo is affiliated with Fishman, he has no right to push his very biased opinion on someone who may not realize where it is coming from. The best advice is to try the Fishman and EMG and make his own determination.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?314061-Fishman-Fluence-Classic-or-EMG-57-66

I invite others to check that thread out, and let me know if it seems like all I did was to "push a very biased opinion" When I read it, it looks like I recanted what the EMG dealers' response was to the comparison. I'm not making it up, I'm not embellishing it. If those guys were on the forum they would've said the same thing. But that's the only way I know how to add value to that thread. To stay out of a thread like that isn't helpful either, because truth be told I may be one of the few people to have performed the exact A/B comparison that the OP asked about.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Finally, to clarify this now infamous email response from someone at Fishman. As I stated, Fluence humbuckers can be split to a single coil. When an engineer or customer service person replied with the technical description of what happens to the resonant peak when you split a humbucker, it leaves out the fact that a split PAF type humbucker, for example, will have a weaker coil and higher resonant peak than a vintage Strat type of pickup.

So here's my description of what happens. First, you cut the string window in half, just like a single coil. You get the output drop AND the tone changes because the pickup is listening to a smaller section of the string. Finally, the Fluence voice, whether its on V1 or V2, is still voicing that single coil, so it sounds like that voice as a single coil. Maybe you'd like it, maybe you wouldn't. But that's the same risk we all have when we buy a humbucker and wire it to a coil split. And as with a passive humbucker, you can decide which coil to split to; neck side, or bridge side. So if the one coil isn't doing it for you, you can try the other coil.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

Well, hmmmm, trying to say this politely, but are you actually so arrogant as to think that starting up Fishman has achieved tones better than Seymour Duncan and the rest of the pickup companies that have been in this for decades?

first ^^^ this ^^^

Not building electric guitar pickups using aerospace technology for 35 years, more like 3 1/2 years.

then ^^^ this ^^^

Fishman has been around for about 35 years. the Fluence technology, that's another story.



it's public knowledge that Duncan was given the opportunity to work with the Fluence technology, and they passed on it. I have a communication sent to me from within the Duncan company. it's been verified BY the highest level of the company that the content had been vetted BY the highest level of the company. it validates that they had no complaints about the tones or the features as having anything to do with their decision. and they obviously don't have issues with the notion of active pickups.


Fluence is a good product that many players will like, and any objective person can agree that they will not be for everyone... which applies to just about any pickup model within just about any brand.

 

[johnstone]

Re: What Fishman Fluence won't do

I invite others to check that thread out, and let me know if it seems like all I did was to "push a very biased opinion" When I read it, it looks like I recanted what the EMG dealers' response was to the comparison. I'm not making it up, I'm not embellishing it. If those guys were on the forum they would've said the same thing. But that's the only way I know how to add value to that thread. To stay out of a thread like that isn't helpful either, because truth be told I may be one of the few people to have performed the exact A/B comparison that the OP asked about.

Ethically you should disclose your affiliation with Fishman before making any recommendations regarding their pickups. I don't doubt that the event you recounted was accurate from your point of view.