What makes a really great Strat?

[PFDarkside]

What makes a really great vintage type Strat? For the purposes of this discussion, let's talk in general terms about classic Strat tones made from pre-CBS era instruments. Not trying to copy any specific tone, just capture that vibe.

If you were on a mission to build an awesome sounding vintage-ish Strat, how would you go about it? What components are critical, what ones are important and what ones are just nice add-ons?

Being the Seymour Duncan Forum, I think we can all agree that good pickups are an important part (early 90's MIM Fenders would not work, but any number of "vintage spec" pickups would put you in the ballpark.) Is a great, resonant piece of wood for the body a must have? What about the neck? Is there anyway to evaluate them without just buying 10 bodies and 10 necks and bolting a bunch together? How important is the hardware to achieving a great Strat tone? Can you get close with the American style saddles or are stamped ones the only way? Same goes for 2-post vs 6-post. Would you default to Fender hardware? Callagham? Another company? How important are the tuners? What about pots and caps?

I've played some dead sounding (90's) American Strats and some resonant MIM Strats, and heard the masters play outstanding Vintage Strats. There must be some commonalities between great sounding Stratocasters, where would you start to acquire/build one?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

Sorry, complex topic = long answer...

I've only owned 4 Strats and all are/were so different in sound. I also played a fair number of Strats while looking for the ones I bought, but in my experience and opinion, Strats are like women. You can experience a bunch and still not understand them completely.

1966 post-CBS
One of the Strats I currently own happens to be a 1966 that's been modified over time, one is a 1962 reissue and one is MIM. The best sounding is the 66, but it's not even pre-CBS. The wood seems to be solid and heavy on the 66. The others are significantly lighter. The head stock on the 66 is the larger 70s type and it's also noticeably thicker; the string holes on the tuning machines just clear the wood it's so thick. The neck is laminate rosewood. When I first got it, it had a heavy BadAss-type bridge on it. It sustained like my Les Paul and I thought it was because of the bridge. The trem broke off and I put a period correct Fender bridge on and I'll be darned if it still sustained and still sounded just as thick. I've swapped out SD Antiquities and the original pickups on it and it kept the same tone; I would credit SD quality at reproducing vintage pickups on that one. The rest of the tone and sustain on the 66 seems to be coming from the body and neck, as far as I can tell. I've swapped everything else out.

American '62 Reissue
The 62 reissue is stock American-made with Fender 'vintage' pickups. It frustrates me. It has neither twang nor balls. But it does stay in tune like a mofo (I once did 3 straight 1-hour gigs without tuning, bending the hell out on solos. I don't get how it was even possible, but blew me away) and it does sound good distorted/overdriven on the treble pickup. It has a slab rosewood neck. It seems lower power and doesn't drive an amp well at all. When I switch guitars, it's the only guitar where I have to change my amp settings to preserve my overdrive/gain/playing level.

MIM
The MIM had way overwound pickups in it. Sounded ok, but like a cheap imitation of a good guitar (truth in advertising). I put Graphtech saddles thinking that would give it some sustain like my 66, but the improvement was far less than I was expecting. The neck is actually a beautiful one-piece flame maple, and it's solid and heavy (it pulls the guitar down when wearing it). I'm not sure why/how that neck ended up on a MIM, other than there is a slight flaw/knot halfway up the back of it. I was really just using it as a spare parts guitar anyway, so I threw some SD Antiquities and a Fender reissue '68 pickup in there, all lower power; kind of 7-8k type, twangy; with CTS pots. That did wonders for the MIM. I've recorded with it since and it comes across like an early sixties twanger when clean, and sounds underground/grunge/indie when distorted/crunched. I like it better than the 62 reissue, except it doesn't stay in tune nearly as well. Perhaps tuning machine changes and some different hardware might solve this.

(I also owned a Strat HM, but that was a different animal. It had little to offer for "classic" Strat tone.)

Overall, my personal experience with the 3 Strats I currently own has been:

1. Electronics are the largest influence on the tone/sound
2. The body wood and neck (preferably solid and heavy) provides sustain, and some additional smoothing of the tone/sound. E.g. spikes in the pickup tone seem to be tamed by the body and neck. I say this because I've swapped the wired pickguards between the 66 and MIM and listened to what changed.
3. Bridges and tuners seem to trail a distant third in having any influence on the tone, sustain or sound, that I can tell.

Where would I start to build a great sounding Strat?
To answer the question, based on my experiences above, I'd find a solid heavy body, a solid heavy neck with the bigger headstock, get SD vintage/antiquity pickups, use period-spec pots (CTS) and period-spec hardware (bridge, tuners) and start there. If I wanted to bias the sound for twangy, I'd get lower power pickups in the 6-8k range. If I wanted a thicker sounding blues/rocker guitar, I'd use 7-8k for mid/neck and make sure the bridge is about a 10k, but still vintage wind using 'period correct' materials, as much as possible.

Tone caps
Something I didn't talk about is the tone cap. I've used Fender official poly caps, Sprague Orange drop, cheap ceramic disc and no-name mylar and only the Fender official and Orange drops sounded good, with a rich usable tone; like a quality wah. Newer ceramic discs and mylar didn't seem to have as deep an effect. The tone control didn't get smooth and dark, but rather just dim and muddy. When I tested those parts, I got inconsistent readings over time, so I suspect the flimsy/flat tone effect might be caused by those caps failing to release a consistent charge / maintaining their spec'd value. It's worth noting my 1966 had an old large ceramic it disc in it when I got it and sounded beautiful. Something has changed between old ceramic discs and the ones you can buy now.

(I probably articulated some of that using some incorrect terminology, but I have no doubt following posts will provide the corrections. Sorry for the long post, but that was good to finally get out of my system.)

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

Lets look at what pre-CBS had in common from 54 to 64:


*Steel block trem with bent steel saddles. (essential IMO)
*Light weight body of swamp ash (55-56) or alder (57-64).
* (tight) Four bolt neck attachment
* Light weight single truss rod.
* Low mass tuners
* Thin nitro finish
*250k pots
* Bone nut

Some differences:

*61-64 pickups seem to have more winds than 55-60
*late 59-62 one piece maple neck superseded by maple neck with thick slab rosewood finger board.
*63-64 RW fingerboard is thinner and conforms to radius on the maple neck shaft.

 

[SlyFoxx]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

I'd say for the most part the player. Strats separate the men from the boys. The main reason certain Gibby fan boyze around here bag on them.

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

I don't think Fender gave a rats..... About the wood being resonant back in the day... More like Leo wanted it to be. Cut out, spray, bolt together, sell.

There are lots of dud vintage Strats out there too...
Pots and caps make little difference in terms of brand. It's tolerances that make the SLIGHT difference. Often so slight you can't hear it.
Pickups are like 80% of the equation... Vintage fender sound = vintage fender pickups.
Hardware should match the old days. I doubt the amount of screws in the trem matters but the material of the saddles and block count.
Neck = maple
Fingerboard = your choice because there really isn't a big difference...


A lot of the time guitar manufacturers suggested you oil the neck with lots of Snake Oil for teh best toanz.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

I don't think Fender gave a rats..... About the wood being resonant back in the day... More like Leo wanted it to be. Cut out, spray, bolt together, sell.

I've read many times in interviews with some of the 'pioneers' of early electric guitars and amplifiers where they have said they considered that the electric 'beat music' craze that swept the teenage world was a fad that would last perhaps five years at most, and it was all about making the stuff they wanted cheaply and basically cashing-in until the bubble burst. None of them expected the items they made to endure and become highly-sought-after collectors' items decades later. The materials were chosen for reasons of availability and cost, no doubt just as construction methods and tooling were about simplicity at a low price.

Regardless, legendary sounds were created and obviously the 'fad' of electric music has continued somewhat longer than they anticipated, to the point that technologies have moved on, and some elements of the original sounds have changed or are more difficult to recreate due to different materials and technologies.

Plus, in my own view, the Strat has a bunch of it's own quirks and idiosycracies, which is why there are so very often a kind of love/hate relationship with them for many players. Often things that irritate me about Strats are also what are some of their strengths.

for me, the folded steel saddles and a good block are important elements, along with everything else mentioned here. I use Callaham bridges because i feel they 'tidied up a few loose ends' of the original design. Pickups are important, but all the ingredients in the recipe are. To be honest, I've encountered Strats that should have sounded classic but sounded like poop, and Strats that should have sounded like rubbish but in fact sounded freakishly good.

And of course there is the element of what the player can extract from the instrument, because i think that the Strat, more than any othere electric guitar, is one where the player has to work at getting the sound out of it, it doesn't automatically show itself to whoever picks it up.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

Great posts guys...

I think there are two interesting facets to the material questions. The first is that although guitar makers were selecting simple, off the shelf components, they were still US made with pretty standardized materials and methods. I'm sure the steel and wire and pots and caps were all produced at a high level, and not subject to import pot metals of questionable origin and cost reduction exercises (yet). On the topic of woods, regardless of whether or not Alder and Ash were chosen for their availability and cost, you know they were getting old growth logs with the ability to throw out defects in the era of clear cutting. As mentioned, it just so happens that we associate those woods with tones we like since they were used on our favorite recordings.

Back to the topic, I'm curious as to how much each component plays. (And obviously the sum of the parts) if you compare a basswood Ibanez superstrat with a vintage Alder or Ash Strat, the difference is huge, since nearly every component is altered. However, I'm thinking that a modern "Deluxe" Strat may have more in common with that Superstrat than the vintage one. (Especially the Deluxes/Claptons/etc with locking tuners and bridges, Lace Sensors, laminate top bodies with thick poly finishes. Etc.)

Thanks again for the info thusfar!

 

[Bludave]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

In order to capture the feel of a vintage Strat you have to have a 7.25" radius fingerboard. tghat can turn a lot of players off right there.... but it "feels right. A good set of Antiqities and a traditional 6 screw bridge system. I have made two Strats that I feel fit the bill for the "vintage" vibe. I elected to go with a 9.5" radius neck on both. Both are quarter sawn maple & rosewood fingerboards. Both also have 1 11/16ths nuts instead of 1 5/8. This simply feels better too me BUT it doesn't feel like a vintage Strat. I also have a standard bridge but have replaced the sadlles with Ferraglide saddle.... again a personal preference. BUT if you want to go steel then do it. After all you are building the guitar for you. Its got to play & feel right to you.

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

I really doubt that tuners, locking or otherwise, affect tone in any way. I think it's better to go for a good brand for better tuning stability.
As for the pots and fretwire I would have guessed that fender just took what was available to them at the time (which would have been better quality than today, but probably not even the best available at the time)
Probably for affordability. Unless there was only one standard back in the day then that would have been used.
I don't think that a modern Strat differs so much from a vintage one that its closer to a super Strat?
The single coils in an ibby superstrat still sound stratty...

As for the poly finish vs nitro.... A can of worms has been opened
From personal experiences with spraying I don't think that nitro is any better than poly at all whatsoever in any way possible. It's just different (outdated, but different.)
A thin poly finish is just as good as a thin nitro finish. The thickness is more important than the type . Any thick finish will dampen vibrations

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

I really doubt that tuners, locking or otherwise, affect tone in any way.

The tuners themselves may not, but i feel pretty certain that the mass at the headstock affects tone, so there will be a difference between lightweight tuners and much heavier ones.

 

[LReese]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

A really great Strat is one that makes you feel its a great Strat. Its going to be different for each person.

A good tech/repairman can go a long way towards making a mediocre Strat very good or great. Also fresh strings make a big difference.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

- A nice alder body, not too heavy
- A reasonably thick maple neck (maple or rosewood board depending on your specific taste)
- A six screw trem with a steel block and stamped steel saddles
- Lightweight slot-head Kluson tuners (yes they definitely do make a difference in tone/sustain)
- Good vintage wind pickups. You can't go wrong with an SSL-1 set but there are plenty of other great vintage Strat pickups out there as well.
- 250k pots
- A thin finish, whether it be poly or nitro

But more important than any of the above: QUALITY CRAFTSMANSHIP.

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

The tuners themselves may not, but i feel pretty certain that the mass at the headstock affects tone, so there will be a difference between lightweight tuners and much heavier ones.

But will that difference be in tone or feel?
All I see it changing is reducing neck dive or weight on the headstock as opposed to a noticeable change in the tone.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

But will that difference be in tone or feel?
All I see it changing is reducing neck dive or weight on the headstock as opposed to a noticeable change in the tone.

General consensus seems to be that tone is affected. Type of truss rod is important, too. For the vintage tone, lightweight tuners and old-style, single-action truss rod are required, heavy tuners and modern two-way truss rods will affect the tone, adversely in terms of seeking the vintage sounds.

 

[uOpt]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

I don't have a laundry list of things, but I have one thing I noticed.

A Stratocaster needs to be floppy to sound well.

The neck really needs to hang nicely against the truss rod, the wood can't be too stiff. The truss rod needs to be nice and light. I think light tuners help, too.

I can rule out that a tight, as in the sides, neck pocket plays a big role. A lot of great Strats, including vintage ones, have no contact with the neck pockets sides. I think the heavily compressed wood in the bottom of the neck, from the screws, takes care of things.

 

[blues]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

Just like any pre-cbs strats or any vintage strats there were studs and duds.

A proper set up can go a long way. Correct amount of relief in the neck. Pick up height can change the tone and if there to close pull your strings out of tune. A good fret dressing.

I think the lighter the guitar the better. Thin finish. Ash of alder can both sound good. Hardtail vs standard can effect tone. I think the better the neck fit in the neck pocket can help sustain but is not always necessary. Anyone ever put a pick under the neck or a piece of cardboard from a match pack in the pocket or even a piece of screen under the neck to get the neck to fit better? Some say the neck mass effects tone. I think it does but I think different sizes may work different on an individual guitar. I think the synergistic effect of all the parts have alot to do with the whole equation on what the individual thinks sounds good. It would depend on how they came off the assembly line.

SRV main strat was made up from parts of other guitars. Not just one stock guitar.

I think you dont have to have a vintage pre cbs strat to have that classic strat tone. Now a days you can build your own or get a good tech to do it for you. It would be a alot cheaper to make your own that can be just as good. When it comes down to it they are just simple bolt on neck guitars. For example you could get a body and or neck from Mark Jenny. He finishes them the way Fender did it back them. If you get a finished body you can even pick the weight you want. He lists them on all his bodys. If you want a lighter or heavier on you can have your pick. We can also get good necks with many options. Neck size,fret size,maple or rosewood and you can sand them and shape them to way you want them. Many pickups options. You could find a set of vintage of newer fender pickups. Many SD modals. Budz makes good strat sets. Lollar,Voodoo ect.

The right synergistic effect and you can have a great strat. Very important is a great set up.You can control the attention to the details.How well the guitar goes together. Proper neck relief ect. It wont be built like and assembly line guitar(they could be hit and miss as for a quality)It just wont be made by guys who work at Fender. You wont have to pay someone at the Fender Custom Shop $4000 to pay attention to detail and set up a bolt on neck guitar properly. People like Nash and Danocaster do this for a little under 2 grand. If you do it your self or even get a tech to assemble it for you for you can do it for around $1000 ot about $1250. :naughty:

 

[AlexR]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

But will that difference be in tone or feel?
All I see it changing is reducing neck dive or weight on the headstock as opposed to a noticeable change in the tone.

Greater mass will absorb more string energy. There have been a lot of people with Gibsons noticing tonal changes with a move from Klusons to Grovers.

 

[NecroPolo]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

Hardtail bridge.

 

[Securb]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

Humbuckers make a really great Strat? IMO

 

[LReese]

Re: What makes a really great Strat?

Humbuckers? Heresy!

Joking - Hummers can be a fun ride, but just a very occasional thing for me these days.

The mass comment above - seems the lighter tuner would absorb more energy. It is lighter and easier to set into motion, but I get the notion ( )there's a difference between a light and heavier tuner.

Also the on the heavier tuner, since its heavier - once's its vibrating it will be harder to get it to stop vibrating.

I've done a Kluson to Hipshot locker swap a couple of weeks ago. If there was any difference, its minuscule. Biggest difference was I could finally tune the Strat.