What's better 2×12 or 4×10

[dave74]

IMO a large 212 is the best compromise of big tone and portability.

 

[Bogner]

First of all, what is the definition of "better" that we are working with here?

Secondly, the answer is 4x12....as many as possible.

 

[solspirit]

First of all, what is the definition of "better" that we are working with here?

Secondly, the answer is 4x12....as many as possible.

Hahahaha

Good question, I wasn't really sure but the answers helped to understand what I'm looking for.

 

[Erlend_G]

2x8"

I've been having my Carlsbro Sherwood 60R amp at home, with the EHX "allied overdrive" (at full gain)- to play electric- while I get my home studio up and running.


The 8's have a resonant midrange- that gets like, "in between" the 12.". It's a brown, direct sound- and I plan on runnin both amps at home.... at the same time


My design "EGA Jazztone 4x8"" includes 4 8" speakers, in a semi-open back Pine cabinet- with legs ; to keep it off the ground!!

-Erl

 

[ErikH]

From a purely technical standpoint, the theory says that a 2x10", will behave better acoustically, mechanically, and sonically, BUTTTTT...... the subjective side of things almost unilaterally leads to 2x12".

The stupid stuff:

1. The smaller speakers CAN have their acoustic centers closer together, reducing comb filtering and providing a more predictable coverage pattern.
2. The smaller speakers have less intermodulation on their cone surface, reducing the beaming effect that larger speakers can exhibit.
3. Smaller speakers tend to sound more acoustically accurate. They have less mass, therefore reacting quicker to the incoming signal. This gives them the punch many like.
4. Smaller speakers have a disadvantage on SPL production though. They have less surface area, therefore they don't displace as much air as a larger driver.
5. Smaller speakers have less low end sound reproduction unless the cabinet they are in is tuned very well.

So while in theory, a 10" cabinet should be a sonic improvement, the neurotic nature, and subjective ideals most guitarists have, drive most to go the 12" route ( me included ). I have gotten to mic MANY 10" cabinets and I cannot say that any sounded inferior to a like 12" loaded one, only that they have a sound and it is the guitarist that makes it work or not. What I do find interesting upon reflecting on it, is that most of the bands that I have worked with ( providing sound support for ) that I have truly enjoyed and lauded, used combo's and or dual-driver cabinets loaded with 10" drivers. I would say that it was mostly due to musical genre though. I like southern rock, blues rock, and 70's rock, and most bands that will utilize a Peavey Classic 30, a Princeton, or a Bassman are predominately such the type to do so. So what I like to hear from a band versus what I prefer myself are two different things I guess.

I was pleasantly surprised at the response and punch from my 1x10 combo when I got it. It's loud enough to keep up with a drummer on an acoustic kit. When I first got it, I had to turn it down at a gig. This thing gets loud. There is that little bit missing that only a 12" speaker gives. It's not enough to make me want to change anything with it though. It's a Vox AV30 (sadly discontinued).

 

[solspirit]

2x8"

I've been having my Carlsbro Sherwood 60R amp at home, with the EHX "allied overdrive" (at full gain)- to play electric- while I get my home studio up and running.


The 8's have a resonant midrange- that gets like, "in between" the 12.". It's a brown, direct sound- and I plan on runnin both amps at home.... at the same time


My design "EGA Jazztone 4x8"" includes 4 8" speakers, in a semi-open back Pine cabinet- with legs ; to keep it off the ground!!

-Erl

I had a 2×8 Marshall mini stack, not the micro but the mini. That thing was bad ass just not loud enough for me at the time. It would probably be perfect now.

 

[solspirit]

I was pleasantly surprised at the response and punch from my 1x10 combo when I got it. It's loud enough to keep up with a drummer on an acoustic kit. When I first got it, I had to turn it down at a gig. This thing gets loud. There is that little bit missing that only a 12" gives. It's not enough to make me want to change anything with it though. It's a Vox AV30 (sadly discontinued).

I've never found a 1×10 that I liked but I never got to try a Vox either. I had a killer 2×10 Ric though.

 

[jeremy]

for bass i like both 10's and 15's. so i have two 1x10" cabs, a 4x10", and a1x15". lots of options depending on the gig. for guitar i typically use a 1x12 combo but i have a 2x12 and a 2x10. its fun to mess around with things and see how much speakers influence the sound of a rig. i also have a 5e7 inspired amp that is a 1x10/1x12 combo. both speakers together sound awesome

 

[Mincer]

For guitar, I certainly prefer a 1x12 (when I use an amp). I don't need that much volume, and its pretty light.

 

[solspirit]

Geez. . .
wait till I start asking about speakers, I don't know the first thing about them

 

[LLL]

An 8x12".

Just ask Pete Townsend & Jim Marshall.

 

[jeremy]

and then ask em why they cut it in half

 

[chadd]

IMO a large 212 is the best compromise of big tone and portability.

I have an Avatar modern 2x12 that's just a little bigger than most others and it adds a little more low mid to my Greenbacks. Love that combination so much.

 

[Ewizard]

One thing that most forget about is a speaker's sensitivity. This is that rating that says 98db @ 1watt @ 1 Meter. 98db is the measured SPL from that speaker with 1 watt of dissipated power at 3.28' or 1 meter. It does not matter if the speaker is a 2" or a 20", if the sensitivity of the two different speakers are the same, they will both produce X SPL in output. Now the frequency response will not be the same, but their volume will be over the bandwidth they produce.

This means you can very easily have a 10" speaker that is just as loud as any 12" there is. In fact, it is not uncommon these days. What is going to be different is the frequency response. Typically the 10" will have a little bit less low-end output. You cannot say that because X speaker cab has 10" speakers it MUST be quieter or less capable than an equivalent 12" model, only that it will sound different and will probably get just about as loud.

A 3-6db difference in potential output is generally not enough to make or break any metric or perceived performance. I would say that a -6db deficit will be clearly audible, but will not be so stark that it would be to a performance detriment. If a -6db potential in output is what makes or breaks your metric, it was broken long before then and you just finally reached the point where that slight difference was the end of your line. Most guitar speakers' sensitivity will range between 95db and 100db. Let's say that the typical amplifier is 50 watts ( to hit in the middle ), which means the peak output swing between a 95db and a 100db sensitivity speaker is between 112db and 117db ( what do you know, a 5db difference ). The 112db and 117db is the peak SPL possible with a 50-watt amplifier, double the wattage to 100 watts and you will gain +3db for each. Just food for thought. A speaker generally is the most influential aspect of the sound of your guitar amp, not so much the potential volume you will achieve; unless of course, you are using a speaker that has a sensitivity of less than 90db!!!

 

[Aceman]

I actually like 4x10 for guitar, at least with a band. I don't need the low end, but I love the punch and crunch you get.

 

[NegativeEase]

From a purely technical standpoint, the theory says that a 2x10", will behave better acoustically, mechanically, and sonically, BUTTTTT...... the subjective side of things almost unilaterally leads to 2x12".

The stupid stuff:

1. The smaller speakers CAN have their acoustic centers closer together, reducing comb filtering and providing a more predictable coverage pattern.
2. The smaller speakers have less intermodulation on their cone surface, reducing the beaming effect that larger speakers can exhibit.
3. Smaller speakers tend to sound more acoustically accurate. They have less mass, therefore reacting quicker to the incoming signal. This gives them the punch many like.
4. Smaller speakers have a disadvantage on SPL production though. They have less surface area, therefore they don't displace as much air as a larger driver.
5. Smaller speakers have less low end sound reproduction unless the cabinet they are in is tuned very well.

So while in theory, a 10" cabinet should be a sonic improvement, the neurotic nature, and subjective ideals most guitarists have, drive most to go the 12" route ( me included ). I have gotten to mic MANY 10" cabinets and I cannot say that any sounded inferior to a like 12" loaded one, only that they have a sound and it is the guitarist that makes it work or not. What I do find interesting upon reflecting on it, is that most of the bands that I have worked with ( providing sound support for ) that I have truly enjoyed and lauded, used combo's and or dual-driver cabinets loaded with 10" drivers. I would say that it was mostly due to musical genre though. I like southern rock, blues rock, and 70's rock, and most bands that will utilize a Peavey Classic 30, a Princeton, or a Bassman are predominately such the type to do so. So what I like to hear from a band versus what I prefer myself are two different things I guess.

Nice post -agree Point 5 is very important -producing low end is about the ability to move air/surface area -so 4 x10s can certainly produce more low end than 2x12s if desired in the design of the speakers and cab, but the key is that most 4x10 guitar cabs that are not intended for bass guitar DO NOT produce more lows -because the designer is looking to optimize the performance advantages of 10s (as described above) in other ways. Usually looking for tight punch, accuracy, clearer more precise transients, etc etc -all of which don't necessarily make for a better sounding cab -just different for the user to decide -especially depending on the style of music.

A great example of this is the use of 1x15 for bass, a lot of people think a 15 is used for bass because it can produce more lows, technically speaking 2x15s with the right setup or 4x10s can produce more -but the flory of a 15 with a bass guitar is the slower response to move more mass can make connecting notes on the fretboard much smoother than smaller speakers -essentially, the poorer perfomance of a 15 is an advantage for bass to most people.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Years ago somebody discovered that a Bandmaster Reverb head was big enough to put two 8"s into.
Makes it a mini combo. Cool mod. I remember seeing those in the 70s.
They were plenty loud too, not just a gimmick.

 

[Jeffblue]

I have both. I use an emptied (amp chassis removed) Carvin Bel Air cab (2X12) for my Bandmaster Reverb and I have a Trace Elliott Bonneville 4X10. I removed and replaced the two bottom Celestions for a pair of Weber California Alnicos and the combination of efficiency and magnet pairing is absolutely amazing and in your face.Both of those rigs sound fantastic.

 

[solspirit]

Years ago somebody discovered that a Bandmaster Reverb head was big enough to put two 8"s into.
Makes it a mini combo. Cool mod. I remember seeing those in the 70s.
They were plenty loud too, not just a gimmick.

After looking at it again, I think I'll only have room for two more 8's along with the two 12'ves.

 

[Demanic]

I have both. I use an emptied (amp chassis removed) Carvin Bel Air cab (2X12) for my Bandmaster Reverb and I have a Trace Elliott Bonneville 4X10. I removed and replaced the two bottom Celestions for a pair of Weber California Alnicos and the combination of efficiency and magnet pairing is absolutely amazing and in your face.Both of those rigs sound fantastic.

Nice. When I can, I go a bit bigger. The 2x15 in the photo is part of the guitar rig.

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