What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

So what? The neck and the body are the core of the guitar. So what if they don't roll their own fretwire or wind their own pickups? So what if they don't grow their own tonewood? The arguments and criteria you've just presented are ridiculous because they have absolutely nothing to do with an instrument's quality.

ok, so hardware and whatnot is not gonna cost more than 500-600 bucks.
all the exotic woods, maybe another 500-1000. at the very very most.

You're telling me that just labour by a relatively new builder and prestige are adding some $12,000 to the value of an otherwise fairly standard instrument? That's just ridiculous. There's nothing innovative about them at all, and there are builders all over the world who can pull off the same quality builds for far less than that.
 
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Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

So what? The neck and the body are the core of the guitar. So what if they don't roll their own fretwire or wind their own pickups? So what if they don't grow their own tonewood? The arguments and criteria you've just presented are ridiculous because they have absolutely nothing to do with an instrument's quality.
You strongly are misunderstanding me. The criteria seems rediculous because the COST OF THE BLACKMACHINE IS REDICULOUS. They don't have to roll their own fretwire or anything to have an amazing instrument. I'm not talking about the quality of the instrument, I am talking about THE VALUE of it. The thing is, the sum of a traditional Blackmachine's parts are around $1,300, so just putting it all together and setting it up is twice the cost of the materials in addition to them? Yes I expect them to manufature their own pickups and hardware and make more expensive choices WITH THAT LEVEL OF COST. But no, it's gotoh, bkp, ash and maple with one volume, one tone, one selector, hard tailed bridge, 2 humbuckers, bolt on neck. AFFORDABLE AND MINIMAL DESIGN. It does not call for that price,no matter how well it's put together.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Welcome to the Internet: where everyone's an expert, and anything that doesn't conform to your assumptions is stupid.

Does anyone actually know what these guitars sound like? Has anyone played one? Or are we just pointlessly arguing about how much it costs to build a hypothetical guitar?
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

"Internet Sensation Marketing" doesn't work for long. My guess is that there are only a handful of guys actually spending that amount on one, or at least saying that they are. Perhaps they are shills for BM, who knows, but it has happened for boutique pedal makers before, so it isn't out of the question. Other than a few internet forums where people are talking about them, they aren't unique enough for most to consider, much less last like PRS did. Add to the fact that any clip I have heard is someone chugging 1 finger chords with so much gain, it might as well be a Squire.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Welcome to the Internet: where everyone's an expert, and anything that doesn't conform to your assumptions is stupid.

Does anyone actually know what these guitars sound like? Has anyone played one? Or are we just pointlessly arguing about how much it costs to build a hypothetical guitar?

Whatever it does sound like, I can guarantee it DOESN'T sound like angels riding unicorns on rainbows on their way to box seats at the world's most prestigious orgy of only the most beautiful kittens and puppies to grace existence, where the opening act is a 3.14159 hour long waltz featuring music written by God himself. Cuz that's what I would expect for 15 grand.

Nope. It probably just sounds like a guitar.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

For the most part I see no reason at all for these to cost more than a Kauer, a McFeely, a D'Avanzo, or even the Ibanezes they seem to be based on. They don't strike me as anything particularly intriguing and I feel you could get a similarly appointed guitar made by a quality craftsperson for significantly less.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Well, if you treat a hand made instrument as a work of art, the price suddenly makes sense. Yeah, that's some costly labour right there, but the free market swallowed it. Why then, should a random person on the internet tell these guys how much they must earn? Is it wrong to make a decent living building exclusive guitars?

Take a look at a famous painting worth millions of dollars and try saying: "the paints and canvas and brushes and whatnot were $200..." or "an arts student can paint one just like that for $500" without humiliating yourself. Catch my drift?

The hype about the guitars in question, is their creator's big success and as such, deserves my deepest respect.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

They aren't "handmade". The pickups are bare knuckle, duncan and emg, the frets are dunlop nickel silver, the hardware is gotoh the woods are typical like ash and maple and they are cut in cliche and standard manner. Just by knowing this, I frankly don't care if it sustains for 30 years, weighs nothing and I can control it like it's an appendage of my body. It's mostly just assembled. He's not winding the pickups or casting the hardware or inventing new electronics or using super exotic woods or making an innovative nut or bridge in a minimalist fashion. Yeah I'll order everything from warmoth and give it to an amazing luthier I know and he will put the parts together REALLY well and there is my blackmachine, and I can make another too with the money I save. Hell even if he does put it together PERFECTLY, the neck joints aren't even that good, and the frets and bridge and neck are still typical metal and wood that will wear and warp, then that feeling when playing that is part of the extreme price is gone in probably a year of regular use and it's gonna be set up by another luthier again IF it survives the overseas shipping.

Ah the typical response of a person uneducated in hi-end guitars, guitar making and what its like to work for less than minimum wage. It never ceases to amaze me how worked up people get at boutique guitars. Its just an instrument. If you don't like it move along or even play your guitar instead of spending your time online talking out your ass what the best guitar is.

You have never played one yet you are jabbering on as if you have owed several. Do you also review films that you haven't seen? I'm sure the third hobbit film is just awful for so many reasons *rolls eyes*. I could look at pictures of a Bugatti Veyron and think "its not so fast" but you won't know until you get in behind the wheel.

Handmade in todays guitar world means no CnC. Just good old fashioned tools and brute force. By your logic I suppose he should be using his actual hands to craft the instrument since he doesn't make his own tools. Next he will have to grow and harvest his own trees. i also like the way you don't account for actually building the guitar and putting in the endless hours of meticulous craftsmanship. Most lutheirs work for minimum wage yet when a luthier finally gets an inch of fame and can afford to support a decent lifestyle people like you are up in arms with your delusional sense of self-entitelment. Nobody is sticking a gun to your head so you can back away from the wall.

Blackmachine are very innovative, at least they were before everyone started copying their designs. You could see this if you did a little bit of research. Nobody was doing what they were doing 10 years ago. Most people turned up their noses at their ideas but look at modern custom guitars now. Thin bodies, chambering, exotic woods, multi-scales, snakewood necks, 7,8 strings, etc While most of these features aren't new mixing them all together certainly was back then and people back then were just as up in arms as you are. "It won't resonate because of the thin body", "snakewood necks will snap", "Nobody plays 8 strings", "Fanned frets are pointless".

The truly utter ignorant part of your post is where you say it will wear off in a year. Tell that to the guys who are being offered $15,000 for their guitars they've had for several years. Most mind you aren't even well off and have a lot of bills to pay. Despite being offered up to 4 times what they payed they will still not let go of their prize position. That just shows you how nice these guitars are and a testament to how players bond with them.

Sometimes there is more to something than the sum of its parts. Your house is just bricks and wood but its home and for most of us that is a special place. Someone else who's home is even bigger, has better furniture and a coastal view won't be able to see why you love your house so much.

Welcome to the Internet: where everyone's an expert, and anything that doesn't conform to your assumptions is stupid.

Does anyone actually know what these guitars sound like? Has anyone played one? Or are we just pointlessly arguing about how much it costs to build a hypothetical guitar?

People always try to knock Blackmachine despite never playing one of their guitars. Its just the dumb way the internet works. Movies, games etc are all reviewed and criticised by keyboard warriors with nothing better to do than try to pull apart something they don't understand. Same way these guitars are overhyped and glorified by people who've never even seen one in person. Two ends of the extreme yet they will fight all day long.

My mate owns one. A 6 string model. Better than anything I've ever come across and I've owned and played 100s of guitars.

The reason BM fetch so much is because they are supply and demand. They stopped building guitars so you can't buy them anymore. What happens when you can't buy something anymore but everyone wants? The price goes up as much as people still want it.

Why then, should a random person on the internet tell these guys how much they must earn? Is it wrong to make a decent living building exclusive guitars?
.

Football players make millions of dollars every year but when a luthier makes enough money to send his kids to college everyone is up in arms.
 
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Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

NSFW language.

 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Oh my god......... Since when did I review the instrument. ALL I've done is give Blackmachine the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the quality. I am EXPECTING THEM to be the best guitars ever. What I am talking about here is SOLELY PRICE JUSTIFICATION. I want to know how the thing costs 3 times what the materials would cost despite it having such a basic design
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

As if their Blackmachine JUST BECAUSE IT'S A BLACK MACHINE won't ever need a set up or a refret... beautiful. If I meet a person who did buy one for that much my first question will be "why?" And a small part of that answer will be how well it plays. The things on the merits of the instrument alone should be nowhere near their price. I'm happy for Doug and I'm sure the Blackmachines are ultimate. Also you know NOTHING about me and why I work and what I work for so lets leave that ad hominem out of this. Maybe I'm not the ignorant one? Maybe the ignorant one is the one who spends 15k on something that realistically doesn't cost 1/3rd of that price? I am talking about Blackmachines standard line here . Not what came before, so I don't care about that. I actually respect the fanned fret models blackmachine makes and everything about those makes the cost make more sense but a bolt on ash and maple fatstrat with a couple of humbuckers with no value of antiquity or celebrity? No way. Not unless somrone can give me a good reason.
 
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Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Oh my god......... Since when did I review the instrument. ALL I've done is give Blackmachine the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the quality. I am EXPECTING THEM to be the best guitars ever. What I am talking about here is SOLELY PRICE JUSTIFICATION. I want to know how the thing costs 3 times what the materials would cost despite it having such a basic design

I challenge you to find a guitar company whose guitars sell for less than three times the cost of the materials. (You did mean three (3), right? Because… go into a guitar store and find any new $1,000 guitar, and tell me whether you honestly think there is $333 worth of materials in it.)
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

"Blackmachine are very innovative" I call BS:bsflag:

All of those models or "designs" I should say have been around way more than 10 years except for the 8 string maybe but people have been playing super strats since the late 70s all through the 80s.

As for being a well made guitar I'm sure he makes a great product but i've yet to see anybody play something that isn't full of distortion or give a proper review or comparison. What makes it so much better is my question?

To be truthful you could buy a year worth of lessons and have better tone you could ever hope to have than by buying gear.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

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Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I challenge you to find a guitar company whose guitars sell for less than three times the cost of the materials. (You did mean three (3), right? Because… go into a guitar store and find any new $1,000 guitar, and tell me whether you honestly think there is $333 worth of materials in it.)

I don't begrudge the $3K price range for a custom-made instrument made with premium woods and a beautiful finish. Not at all. A lot of work goes into making a guitar.

But $15K for a bolt-on neck guitar with an oil finish that looks like an Ibanez RG ripoff... Nope. If he charged $2K... Sure. If I spend more than $3K, I'm expecting a Kauer, a Rhoney, a Fano, or the like. For less than that I can get a higher spec'd McFeely or something from a dozen other builders that have a passion AND a respect for their fellow musician.

There's a point where spending more money doesn't get you anything extra. It just gets you a lighter wallet.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I don't begrudge the $3K price range for a custom-made instrument made with premium woods and a beautiful finish. Not at all. A lot of work goes into making a guitar.

But $15K for a bolt-on neck guitar with an oil finish that looks like an Ibanez RG ripoff... Nope. If he charged $2K... Sure. If I spend more than $3K, I'm expecting a Kauer, a Rhoney, a Fano, or the like. For less than that I can get a higher spec'd McFeely or something from a dozen other builders that have a passion AND a respect for their fellow musician.

There's a point where spending more money doesn't get you anything extra. It just gets you a lighter wallet.

I'm with you on that. I don't judge a finished product by the value of raw materials I see in it. I believe that labor is valuable, and that overhead and margin are more than just dirty words accountants came up with. If a guitar fails to convince me of its value at $15,000 it is because I am seeing the entire guitar, the function, the experience of ownership -- all of it -- as not being worth it.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I'm with you on that. I don't judge a finished product by the value of raw materials I see in it. I believe that labor is valuable, and that overhead and margin are more than just dirty words accountants came up with. If a guitar fails to convince me of its value at $15,000 it is because I am seeing the entire guitar, the function, the experience of ownership -- all of it -- as not being worth it.

Exactly. And with the BlackMachine guitars I see nothing that I can't assemble myself out of parts from Warmoth, USACG, KnE, Musikraft, or whoever for under a grand.
 
Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I challenge you to find a guitar company whose guitars sell for less than three times the cost of the materials. (You did mean three (3), right? Because… go into a guitar store and find any new $1,000 guitar, and tell me whether you honestly think there is $333 worth of materials in it.)

For say a fender usa strat if I was to make one from like warmoth or something.
200 for an alder body
150 for the fender fat 50s pickups
Even without the neck, hardware and other electeonics that is already a third of the price. Warmoth is by no means a DEAL either, but if I were to use it to replicate whatever It would likely be MORE expensive.
 
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