Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

[Guitar Toad]

Is it the 30 years of break-in that makes the speaker sound better? What 30 year old car would you say is better than a 2005 car? It just seems paradoxical, oxymoronic, or just plain weird to say an old amp is better than a new amp. Although I know it's right.

Current components are better than old components generally speaking.

Is this where amp building is an art as much as it is a technical exercise?

What makes an old amp like a fine wine? Is it perception?

You don't buy a new Matchless SC-30 and say it sounds bad because it doesn't have 30 years of break-in. But, the DRRI can't stand up to the vintage DRs? What's goin' on here?

They just don't make 'em the way they used to!

Is older really better?

 

[flank]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

i think it all varies....... some old amps did use better parts, particularly transformers (with some brands).... some of the better sound is aging of parts/speakers like you said, giving a warm tone

sometimes, i think it's all in people's heads.......sometimes there isn't a difference, but since we are told older is typically better, in this market, we can't get away from that mindset....but in reality, that may not be the case

sometimes its not easy to diagnose the difference, or explain it...... but, i've played a Fender Twin Reverb reissue, next to a real blackface, and a real silverface.....and the older amps were more pleasing...... the new one really did feel a bit more hard sounding, and brighter..... now, as to whether the difference was enough to justify buying a new or old one (pricewise).....that, i dont know

 

[Mephis]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Well, They dont make cars like they use to... Go drive a 1970 cuda and you tell me any new car is anywhere near on par with it.

Same way with amps, they used quality componets, and as far as I know, most were hand wired. And most new amps are solid state, so that might also add into this equation.

 

[shredaholic]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

because they smell better.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Well, They dont make cars like they use to... Go drive a 1970 cuda and you tell me any new car is anywhere near on par with it.

Same way with amps, they used quality componets, and as far as I know, most were hand wired. And most new amps are solid state, so that might also add into this equation.

Your '70 'Cuda would certainly demand more maintenance than if a there was a '05 Cuda. The '70 would ride smoother and have more power. It's a classic but that doesn't make it a better made car. For performance I would take an '05 Vette over a '70 or '57. As a collector of cars, then the argument turns around.

Are amps the same? There must be an element of art at work on amps. They say Fender amps were better/different under Rivera and other notable Fender amp lead guys.

 

[flank]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

because they smell better.

aha! this is what i was trying to say

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Those aren't valid comparisons. Technology in autos evolves and improves every year. There are usually new needs to be met or workarounds done.

The technology used in guitar amps and electric guitars is about 100 years old. People like and have gotten accustomed to the sound these fairly primitive technologies offer. It's like the never ending tube vs. solid state issue. There are plenty of different technologies available for electric guitar pickups too but they never catch on because they sound different, because they ARE different. Violins haven't changed at all over the past few hundred years along with a lot of other orchestral instruments. Music is timeless, there really isn't a whole lot of "newer/better" as far as instruments go. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Plus because we have "newer/better" materials now to make amps, reiussues will never sound just like the originals. A lot of those older components are no longer available.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

The '70 would ride smoother and have more power.

You mean '05. :newangel:

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Yes, I was trying to say that the cars and amps comparison isn't really valid.

Violin making is craftsmanship and is an art in itself.

Xeromus, what do you do? You seem technologically savvy, or you are simply a good thinker, or full of B/S. But, I don't think that you are the latter, most of the time.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

You mean '05. :newangel:

Oh, no! The big ol' 1970 beast would most definitely have a smoother ride.

I've never drove in a Cuda, but nothing today could touch the smooth gliding ride of a 70's Caddy, Buick, or Olds Custom Cruiser they were some smooth riding mobiles. Those old american made cars know how to just glide down the freeway.

RATTS! Now, I'm starting to about about cars like a vintage amp guy! :smack:
please forgive me. It's temporary insanity

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Yes, I was trying to say that the cars and amps comparison isn't really valid.

Violin making is craftsmanship and is an art in itself.

Xeromus, what do you do? You seem technologically savvy, or you are simply a good thinker, or full of B/S. But, I don't think that you are the latter, most of the time.

I like the first two the best!

Sorry if I missed a point, I skimmed the posts in this thread first.

I'm a computer tech and a recording engineer. I'm also a music student. I also prefer an objective view of things and keep an open mind. I like to look at things as if they are brand new instead of just taking things for face value or simply things we've become accustomed to because of socialization. Um, actually, it's easier to just sum it up and say I'm an incredibly critical thinker. But I do my fair share of BSing too.

As far as technology goes, what I said above is true. That's also one of the reasons I think modeling amps never have and never will really catch on bigtime. They are using new technology to try to recreate old technology. That's an oxymoron if I ever saw one. It's not possible and never will be accomplished. The last time there was new technology as far as amps go, it was solid state. Which has many advantages over tube. But again, it IS newer technology, so it sounds different. People wanted the sound of their old tube amps still. Now they try to reverse engineer SS amps to make them sound more like tube and that's why there's never any real advancement. If these companies would just evolve the SS amp for what it is instead of trying to make them sound like cheap tube amps there's probably another really cool amp sound waiting to happen that isn't really available right now. I really enjoy tube amps, I just wonder what would happen with the electric guitar and amp if a lot of companies weren't afraid to try some new things or if they weren't stuck in a time warp.

Working in a studio, I see and use ALL kinds of different amps and guitars, get to hear how they sound on recordings and such.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Vintage vs. RI or New:
Therefore it really isn't a better vs. worse question, it's same vs. not-the-same.

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Vintage vs. RI or New:
Therefore it really isn't a better vs. worse question, it's same vs. not-the-same.

In my person experience I've found:

Vintage: Sounds great, more unreliable due to age, harder to find suitable replacement parts that won't change the tone of the amp if something decides to blow. Not really necessarily "better".

RI, New: Better components, more reliable, probably more modern approaches to construction. But in the end not made the same as vintage amps. Sound darn close, but not exact. Not necessarily "better"

I would never want to own a vintage amp due to the initial cost and cost of maintenance, worries about damage, etc. I'd go for a reissue if I was hell-bent on a specific tone I guess. A big part of the vintage amp and guitar market is nostalgia.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I would never want to own a vintage amp due to the initial cost and cost of maintenance, worries about damage, etc. I'd go for a reissue if I was hell-bent on a specific tone I guess. A big part of the vintage amp and guitar market is nostalgia.

I would love to have vintage amp. But, that is exactly why I probably won't. Maintenance and repair issues would worry me. I would love to collect if I ever have the extra dough laying around.

Xeromus do you see many SS amps in the studio?

Are guys recording now with SS and upon listening to the recording, a listener wouldn't be able to discern tube or SS?

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I would love to have vintage amp. But, that is exactly why I probably won't. Maintenance and repair issues would worry me. I would love to collect if I ever have the extra dough laying around.

Xeromus do you see many SS amps in the studio?

Are guys recording now with SS and upon listening to the recording, a listener wouldn't be able to discern tube or SS?

Yeah I can see that, you're a little older too, I think around your age I'd be looking for vintage amps too.

SS amps in the studio, FAR more than tube. I once offered to let someone use my legacy half stack for a recording session since I was there anyway and they preferred their SS amp. Also, my guitar teacher who teaches at 3 different schools through the week (I have no idea how he does that), he's been a pro musician for the past 25-30 years, gigs regulary, is a session guitarist and all around killer player and he plays through SS amps, he prefers them. I used to think that was kind of unusual until I heard him play through them. They sounded good on recordings too. It's like not like he can't afford a tube amp or hasn't used them.

As far as the average listener being able to tell the difference, NO WAY. On a recording, it can be really hard unless you're looking for it. I recorded this one band, and the guitarist used both a fender deluxe and a boogie mkIV on the tune, and to do a scratch track for the solo, we ended up plugging his guitar directly into a tube preamp then into the board, into the amplitube plugin in pro tools. Afterward we ended up keeping it. There's no way you could tell that was a plugin and not an amp if you didn't know otherwise.

I should add that I prefer tube amps and passive pickups for myself.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I think there's probably a bunch of little factors that add up.

Like Xeromus said, the basic technology is old, and a lot of things have passed that technology up.

First thing that came to mind was tolerances in components. These days tolerances in caps and resistors is stupidly low- like +/- 2-5%. "Back in the day" tolerances were +/- 20%. Add that up througout a relatively complex circuit...

Second thing that comes to mind is PCB vs. P2P. Although I guess tons of studies have been done, both scientific and non-scientific, that show that a printed circuit board should have no impact on the circuit any more than point to point wiring, but...

Which leads to automation in production- your call.

Then we also come back to parts. In the 50's-70's there were still items that worked off valve technology used in every day life. To use the car analogy, think of carbeurated engines, say you're building a "reissue" of a '67 GTO, and you get all the repro parts, but some of them are a little off, or completely wrong. The GM 400 was an incredibly common engine, and the parts for those things would have been commonplace in any auto parts store- but to get new parts for that engine you'd be looking for NOS, used or refurbished parts, or reproduction parts. Just because you're probably not going to find a heck of a lot of NOS parts, and if you wanted the vehicle as "new" you might not want used parts in there, that leaves whatever manufacturer is going to re-create those parts- to whatever tolerances and standards are acceptable to whatever plans are available.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Don't forget about the old cabs, old wood, aged wood......materials make a difference, look at the sound difference between a birch cab, and plastic cab.

Luke

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

There's just something about a peice of gear that's been vibrating and holding together for 25 plus years. It's got history and character and has a proven track record.

It's probably why i own two guitars from the year I was born. I have an affinity for something as old as I am. We've been around the same amount of time and are still getting the job done night after night!

 

[WhoFan]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

The only true vintage amp i own is a 1965 Deluxe Non-Reverb...... It was not working when i bought it but i had it repaired... Then it needed new tubes and more repairs.... then it needed new Caps..... I just bought a 23 year old JCM 800.... i know it is not vintage but it also needs help.... it is too noisey..... I think that when it comes to vintage stuff you have to expect the repairs that go with using something so old.

What i do love about amps like 60's Fenders, Marshall plexis and early Hiwatts is they are point to point wiring... Once fixed up and serviced they can be great. But expect them to need help more often.

 

[Amateur]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I just like to point out that although the re-issued amps look like the vintage ones from the outside, a lot of them may be using digital components. If you listen to a CD and compare it to an old vinyl record, you'll notice the sound coming out from the CD is more harsh. It may be more clear but it just does not sound as warm because the digital signals are not continuous like the analog ones. The difference is just that - digital vs analog.