Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

[Lewguitar]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Vintage Fender amps from the 50's and 60's are better because:

1. They are 100% hand wired and working on them is easy! Reissues are built on a printed circuit board that can be a b*tch to work on, mod or replace parts.

2. The cabinets are solid pine and the corners are glued together in the corners with a finger joint or box joint similar to dovetailed construction. The reissues do not feature the same construction...it's just a dado joint and the top can pull right off. I've seen it happen to a Vibro-King.

3. Vintage Fender amps feature Triad or Schumacher transformers and they have thier own personality and tone that modern trannys do not accurately reproduce.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Amature and Lewguitar - you make some excellent points.

The digital vs. analogue is intriguing. I hear that the vintage amps are much noisier from their analogue signal chain. Is that true? To a significant degree?

 

[twoheadedboy]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

There is definitely an element of artistry. Older amps don't necessarily use "better" components, but what was available cheaply in older amps can be quite expensive to get now, as the technology is long outdated. For example, lots of older amps use carbon composite resistors, which are not really found in many amps because of availability issues. As an overall product, newer amps are probably "better," but they don't sound like the older ones do, because the older technology is hard to come by cheaply these days.

 

[flank]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Amature and Lewguitar - you make some excellent points.

The digital vs. analogue is intriguing. I hear that the vintage amps are much noisier from their analogue signal chain. Is that true? To a significant degree?

i think the noise factor is just situation to situation...... even though my dad's twin reverb was gigged constantly for 20 years, and been around for over 30 years.......and having never been serviced.......it is dead silent..........where as, our newer Fender Super 112 amp is much noisier

the noise factor probably varies from how much usage, wear and tear, and room position of the amp......if the amp has been used alot, it could end up being noisier from the parts starting to wear down and lose their quality.......however, like in my dads situation, our twin reverb has been used probably thousands and thousands of times, and never been serviced.......and it still is dead quiet....... i think its just certain situations that cause an amp to be noisy

 

[marvar]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

One of the reasons vintage amps sound the way they do is because the most of the componants weren't of the same quality as todays electronics are. Its' kinda the same thing as the difference between analog and digital. Some of those older electronics had their own character because of the way they were made, and now a days, electronics are more efficient. And efficency doesn't always translate to better, at least as far as we guitar players are concerned.
Remember that old Leo was an engineer, and he used whatever stuff he could get the best price on at the time. Do you really think he sat down and tried to figure out how to get 'the tone?" nope, he just used whatever he could get at the lowest possible cost to make his designs work . After all, he was in business to make money!

 

[aleclee]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I doubt a vintage gear buff will ever think a RI sounds as good as the original.

Since goodness is measured in terms of how close an amp is to some vintage Holy Grail, no modern amp can be better. The best it can do is absolutely nail the tone but even that's unlikely for the reasons others have already detailed.

For me, it's more about feel and nailing the sounds in my head. I'm not really a vintage guy, anyway. I would like to think that my tastes run towards "modern classics".

 

[Grandor]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Since goodness is measured in terms of how close an amp is to some vintage Holy Grail, no modern amp can be better.

I'm glad im not searching for a vintage tone then.
lol. The closest tone to 'vintage' that I'd like to achieve is David Gilmour's tone. However it would just be one switch in my arsenal. So I'm not bothered.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

You guys are awesome. You have assembled another informative thread. A nice collage here. Thanks for the many quality entries.

 

[Quencho092]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I would never want to own a vintage amp due to the initial cost and cost of maintenance, worries about damage, etc. I'd go for a reissue if I was hell-bent on a specific tone I guess. A big part of the vintage amp and guitar market is nostalgia.

Exactly why i am avoiding vintage amps now that i have bought one. The sound isn't like some extravagant nirvana of tone, it sounds ok.

But then i start to think about the 40 something year old capacitors and the resistors that sit on top of the tube sockets that havent been changed in years, and i stop focusing on making music and having fun with my band. All ive worried about the past few months is my amp this, and my amp that and im sick of it. Steer clear of vintage amps unless you've had it 100% checked up and all old parts replaced, unless you like hassles. I'll be getting a DRRI and enjoying its tone, and if i want a bit better tone, i can throw in some better tubes than the sovteks it comes with.

 

[Mike M.]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Then there's people like me who don't care about vintage vs. new, just as long as it sounds good and it's reliable. Before I bought my DRRI I read countless threads about how much better the older ones sound. Well, I've never heard one of the older ones so I can't say whether or not that's true, and if I am missing something how would I know since I've never had the chance to make a side by side comparison? I can't believe how many people have had thier DRRI's converted from PCV to P2P. It's almost like they felt they HAD to for bragging rights! All I know is I bought the DRRI because I liked what I was hearing.

 

[flank]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

if it sounds good, then it sounds and is good......if you are dealing with good quality amps like fender reissues, they sound great, and they are great......to me, they are every bit as good as a vintage version of the same amp, but good in slightly different ways....i cant put my finger on exactly what the difference in sound is, but it is there....but what does that mean? a difference does not equate to better and worse

i think the truth is, particularly with the fenders, it all sounds good, and its all worth purchasing, and whether to purchase the vintage version or the reissue version of the amp comes down to preference.......some people think that there is nothing that compares with vintage, and they can justify the cost......... some people dont want to deal with the potential hassles of vintage gear and/or they cannot afford it

but bottomline, it all sounds good........ the pickyness and in depthness of these internet guitar forums tend to perpetuate things, and if you read countless reviews/posts all day, trends seem to occur, and mindsets are implanted....... but if you go out and experience it yourself, you will probably find it to all be a different, and in my case, not being too picky of a person, i find some of the nitpicking of tone journeymen to be a little over the top, but thats my opinion

bottom line again Todd, if it sounds good, then it is good

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

The whole "better" thing is quite subjective... a vintage Echoplex is "better" than a digital-delay because the sound quality deteriorates massively with each successive repeat. However, a Boss delay unit is "better" than a cheapo because it can reproduce the notes with crystal clarity.

A Floyd Rose trem is "better" than a Bigsby (which it is) because it stays in tune.... but a Bigsby is "better" than a Floyd (which it's not) because of the feel.

Musicians should toss the B word out the window.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Some reissues have very good reputations for sounding close/identical to their forebears. One that has a very good rep is the blackface super reverb ri.

Ris are definitely more practical for gigging, but most vintage amps I've tried have had something special that I don't often hear in newer amps. I think it's a combination of older componentry, cabinet build, point-to-point wiring and in some cases old tubes.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

and in my case, not being too picky of a person, i find some of the nitpicking of tone journeymen to be a little over the top, but thats my opinion

I think that I agree...alot!
And somebody should start a religion towards all this...because 99% of the time it is nothing else but beliefs and faith in the rather unknown.
Modern stuff is everybit as good in many respects, well we will see in 30 years or so won't we

 

[Amateur]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Theoretically, tube amps are more noisy than the solid state ones. It is inheritted from the component design. Since the tubes don't really have a good control over how the electrons fly from one pole to the other, you actually get a slight different sound every time even you play the same note, but that's the beauty of it, you get different harmonics and they sound lively. The solid state amps, especially the digital ones, usually have some kind of filter that filters out the unwanted sounds before they do the amplification and thus throw out all the harmonics. That's why they sound clean but mechanical and harsh. We don't really have the technology to design a circuit to intelligently filter out the unwanted sounds but retain the harmonics yet, but I bet the amp manufacturers ar trying.

There are lots of reasons why an amp gets noisy, like ground loop, bad grounding, hums... etc. If you get a badly designed amp, or a bad quality amp, you will notice the noise.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I own both vintage amps and newer modeling amps...For me it's all about the tone and the feel.If I can get both,it doesn't matter to me if the amp is a 1964 or a 2004 model.The people listening to us play don't know or care whether my guitar tone comes from a vintage amp or not or whether it's a Marshall or a fender amp..There are good and bad in everything! I've heard some vintage amps that were amazing and I've also heard some that were dogs for maybe just need of servicing etc.but were still uninspiring..

The thing I Like about the vintage amps for me,is the ease of working on the amp.After that it doesn't matter to me if the amp is pcb or ptp as long as it is reliable and has good tweakable tone..

Most of us can't afford to pay over 2k for a nice 65 Super Reverb and the RI is close enough by comparison.. :13:

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I just like to point out that although the re-issued amps look like the vintage ones from the outside, a lot of them may be using digital components. If you listen to a CD and compare it to an old vinyl record, you'll notice the sound coming out from the CD is more harsh. It may be more clear but it just does not sound as warm because the digital signals are not continuous like the analog ones. The difference is just that - digital vs analog.

Good analogy!

 

[aleclee]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Musicians should toss the B word out the window.

Preach on, Brother Beavis! :arms:

 

[aleclee]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

I just like to point out that although the re-issued amps look like the vintage ones from the outside, a lot of them may be using digital components.

Are you implying that an amp like a DRRI has digital parts in it or that computers were used to design & build the amp?

 

[Amateur]

Re: Why are Vintage amps better than RI?

Since goodness is measured in terms of how close an amp is to some vintage Holy Grail, no modern amp can be better. The best it can do is absolutely nail the tone but even that's unlikely for the reasons others have already detailed.

I would also like to point out that the Holy Grail may not be just the guitar and amp. A lot of times people would hear a certain sound from a record, which they liked, and they would try to find out what gears were used by the artist thinking that would be the guitar and amp that produced the sound. What they were not aware is that the session had to go through mixies with all kinds of effects added to the tracks. Yes, even live gigs. That is the reason why the records sound so good. The artist could never reproduce the same sound. As a matter of fact, people will hear different sounds in the same live gig if they are situated in different locations. A record or CD will also sound different if played in different stereos. We may be chasing something that was never there.