Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

[blueman335]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

The one thing I will not agree with the majority of this forum on is the idea that we can trust our ears to be free of bias.

You're not going to get the most important piece of the puzzle, the wind. PU makers spend years or decades developing those, and usually take that to the grave with them. So, we're left to trust our ears.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

I must have missed the part where anyone's life was on the line, here.

You just said you're a non-believer A? And you're from the "show me" state (as in, "I don't believe it, show me")

 

[thanaton]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

You're not going to get the most important piece of the puzzle, the wind. PU makers spend years or decades developing those, and usually take that to the grave with them. So, we're left to trust our ears.

You think the wind matters because of what your ears tell you, and the lack of any technical data to suggest a difference elsewhere. So your ears tell you there is a special wind, but then your belief that there is a special wind informs your ears, so you're stuck in a circular loop of deduction where in what you want to believe reinforces itself.

You just said you're a non-believer A? And you're from the "show me" state (as in, "I don't believe it, show me")

The atheists in foxholes cliche means that when your life is on the line, you will suddenly find God. It's a form of Pascal's wager.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

You think the wind matters because of what your ears tell you, and the lack of any technical data to suggest a difference elsewhere.

PU's are one just one piece of the tone, along with guitar design, wood, guitar electronics, amp, speakers, tubes, cords, effects, etc. All impact the final sound; you expect to have technical data on all that? How do you calculate how these variables interact with each other?

So without specs, PU's sound the same to you because you can't trust your ears? And armed with technical data, you'll suddenly hear differences you couldn't hear before, or perhaps think you can hear differences? That's not a circular loop of deduction? Give you a graph and your ears come to life. Do you take charts with you when you go to see live music, to be able to tell if the guitar sounds good or not?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

Prevalence of opinion means nothing, if not a single opinion is informed by facts, due to any lack of facts to be had.

I disagree. When dozens of musicians of all ages, backgrounds and skill levels, in different environments, using various musical instruments have independently observed similar characteristics and phenomena in the same model pickup device, that bears some credence. It's not a 'proof', but it is a data point and certainly informative though not normative. And worth respecting as learned, experienced advice and a starting point for your own experimentation.

Considering all the emotional bias at play, if there is no proof that there is a substantial, tone-killing difference between a 57 Classic, a Burstbucker, or an original PAF, I'd have to assume they're all effectively the same.

For someone so demanding of facts and proof, that is an unusually weak and uninformed starting assumption. Just read the 'specs' for a start:
'57 Classic - Balanced coils, wax potted, Alnico 2, 6.9k
Burstbucker - Unbalanced coils, no wax potting, Alnico 2, ~6.7 - 7.1k (BB1-BB3)
Burstbucker Pro - Balanced coils, wax potting, Alnico 5, ~6.8k - 7.1k (neck - bridge)
PAF - Unbalanced coils wound until 'full' with manual stop, no wax potting, Alnico 2-5 used randomly, varies from ~7k - 9k used in all positions

 

[thanaton]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

I disagree. When dozens of musicians of all ages, backgrounds and skill levels, in different environments, using various musical instruments have independently observed similar characteristics and phenomena in the same model pickup device, that bears some credence. It's not a 'proof', but it is a data point and certainly informative though not normative. And worth respecting as learned, experienced advice and a starting point for your own experimentation.

The consensus against the 57 Classic is nowhere near as broad as you're making it out to be. We're talking about the guitar forum echo chamber, here.

For someone so demanding of facts and proof, that is an unusually weak and uninformed starting assumption. Just read the 'specs' for a start:
'57 Classic - Balanced coils, wax potted, Alnico 2, 6.9k
Burstbucker - Unbalanced coils, no wax potting, Alnico 2, ~6.7 - 7.1k (BB1-BB3)
Burstbucker Pro - Balanced coils, wax potting, Alnico 5, ~6.8k - 7.1k (neck - bridge)
PAF - Unbalanced coils wound until 'full' with manual stop, no wax potting, Alnico 2-5 used randomly, varies from ~7k - 9k used in all positions

Those are all preferential differences. There are pickups that are well reviewed that feature these same distinctions.

Contrast that with

Since their inception in early 90s, number of turns, TPL and wire type.

or

I believe it was Tom Holmes that said when working for Gibson, that Gibson didn't want to spend $2 extra dollars for a spool of wire that (is/was) more accurate for the build of the 57' Classic humbucker. That was a very telling fact about Gibson.

If there's something to this, we need to know what that cheapo wire was, and why it made the pickups worse, so on and so forth.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

or


If there's something to this, we need to know what that cheapo wire was, and why it made the pickups worse, so on and so forth.

Why ?

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

The consensus against the 57 Classic is nowhere near as broad as you're making it out to be. We're talking about the guitar forum echo chamber, here.



Those are all preferential differences. There are pickups that are well reviewed that feature these same distinctions.

Contrast that with



or


If there's something to this, we need to know what that cheapo wire was, and why it made the pickups worse, so on and so forth.

Nathan, it's good that you have an inquisitive mind. What it's gonna take from you is a little elbow grease and research. You need to start winding your own pickups and ask questions of the independent pup winders in order to glean the information you require and to gain more "hands on" experience by winding your own pickups.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

The consensus against the 57 Classic is nowhere near as broad as you're making it out to be. We're talking about the guitar forum echo chamber, here.

I think you underestimate just how broad this particular forum is.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

It's not so much that I don't have the information, it's that you don't have this information, either.

You have emotionally biased perception of sound, and you have this unproven hearsay from some guy that worked at Gibson, and some utterance about how the coil winding process has changed over the years. Adding together numerous dubious data points does not create one quality data point.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

I think you underestimate just how broad this particular forum is.

LOL, no, not at all. I've seen the same names on here for years. I'd say this is the most stagnant of all the major guitar forums. IMO.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

LOL, no, not at all. I've seen the same names on here for years. I'd say this is the most stagnant of all the major guitar forums. IMO.

The same names over time has nothing to do with it. The point is there are people here from all across the globe of all ages that play all styles using all manner and age of guitars.

Your comments are showing the most bias at this point.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

The same names over time has nothing to do with it. The point is there are people here from all across the globe of all ages that play all styles using all manner and age of guitars.

But if they all spend a lot of time on the same forum, they will collectively influence each other. What you need are people who don't interact with one another on a frequent basis, making the same observations.

Your comments are showing the most bias at this point.

How so?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

But if they all spend a lot of time on the same forum, they will collectively influence each other. What you need are people who don't interact with one another on a frequent basis, making the same observations.



How so?

Your bias against the opinions of members of a particular forum based on who is on it and your assumptions about them.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

Nathan, it's good that you have an inquisitive mind. What it's gonna take from you is a little elbow grease and research. You need to start winding your own pickups and ask questions of the independent pup winders in order to glean the information you require and to gain more "hands on" experience by winding your own pickups.

I think the key is admitting that no one is entitled to information like this. It's not like demanding McDonalds tell us what's in a McNugget, or whether there is lead in the water supply. You don't have a right to this information. You get what you get, when either someone is kind enough to share, or sometimes a disgruntled former employee has an axe to grind, in which case you have to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

It's not so much that I don't have the information, it's that you don't have this information, either.

You have emotionally biased perception of sound, and you have this unproven hearsay from some guy that worked at Gibson, and some utterance about how the manufacturing process has changed over the years. Adding together numerous dubious data points does not create one quality data point.

If you had the information you wouldn't be asking these damn inane questions and sound like a broken record. It's highly likely that you wouldn't be able to understand or discern the information and data anyways. The Tom Holmes comment was from a Tone Quest Report article. Tom Holmes is the man behind the Gibson 57' Classic humbucker. I suggest that you do your due diligence so that hopefully you will be able to actually offer something of value to this forum before talking out of the other side of your arse.

If you want to talk pup technicalites I suggest that you talk to Dave Stephens of Stephens Design Pickups. He'll give you more than an earful on the subject. utahere:

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

I think the key is admitting that no one is entitled to information like this. It's not like demanding McDonalds tell us what's in a McNugget, or whether there is lead in the water supply. You don't have a right to this information. You get what you get, when either someone is kind enough to share, or sometimes a disgruntled former employee has an axe to grind, in which case you have to take it with a grain of salt.

+100%

 

[thanaton]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

You're right, I take it all back. You all make fine points, and I've seen the error of my ways.

 

[Imperfect]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

Maybe start a poll.

 

[leevc5]

Re: Why do Gibson pickups cost so much?

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