Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

[theodie]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I would agree that Duncan has some holes in their lineup! I would agree with that 100%! I would like to see more models or a model that are in the 10-12K range. Something thats not a vintage kind of pickup and something that is not a gainiac metal pickup. Thats most of their lineup right now IMO!

You do not need a F-spaced pickup with a 1 11/16 nut width. According to Dimarzio, an F-spaced or a standard spaced will work fine with a 1 11/16 nut. I have used Duncan standard spaced pickups in the neck of 1 11/16 axes and the string were still lined up in a satisfactory manner over the poles.

I will agree that Duncan should make everything in F-spaced. I have heard that you can get all Duncans in trem spacing by getting it as a floor-custom model instead of paying way too much IMO as a custom shop model for the same pickup in a wider spacing. If you wanted a true custom pickup I can understand these kind of charges. Actually, its quite reasonable IMO. I can not confirm this though! I would contact a good Duncan dealer such as Black Rose Customs to see if this may be possible.

 

[Dave Z]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Believe it or not the folks at SD do listen to constructive criticism and on a couple of occasions they have even taken user suggestions and ran with them....

...Some people are fanatical about trem spaced pickups but having tried both std and trem speced JBs in my Strat in the bridge position I can say that the tone was the same. In the neck position where the spacing will be even tighter you won't hear a difference....

When asked what consumers disliked about the SD line, confusion about the many choices was also mentioned. Too many pickups to choose from is a problem for many people it seems. .

Hi Robert,, thanks for taking my post the way it was intended. And also about your impressions of F-spaced & regular pickups, believe me it'd make my life easier to do a non-F pup (jazz) in the neck in this case.

Also, I hear you about the consumer input - we have similar product issues at my company and similar decisions to make.

I appreciate you taking the time to 'listen' here on the forum.

--Dave Z

 

[Dave Z]

Re: F-spacing

Re: F-spacing

I have used Ibanez guitars in the past (used to own a 550 and a 770, one of my first guitars was a Destroyer) I did pickup swaps in them MANY times. I used F spaced pickups (used to be a Dimarzio guy) in the bridge and standard spaced in the neck. The alignment is fine. and the tone is just fine. You are NOT going to need an F spaced pickup in the neck on ANY guitar with an an 1 11/16" nut width it really doesnt matter WHAT Ibanez says. ANd to be honest I dont believe they are going to say that for a moment. CHeck with them....or check with the guy that runs Ibaezrules.com (RIch) and see what his advice is. Its not going to be getting an F spaced neck pickup.

I have used non f spaced pickups in Fenders and cant detect a difference. F spacing (trembuckers) are great, and yes it looks better to have the poles line up. But is it critical? Not for a bloody moment. I am one of many that argues that F spacing is cosmetic more than anything.

Run it by Tim at bare knuckle pickups.....he will agree that a neck F spaced pickup is also totally unneeded.

I think I am going to wind some pickups to 11 or 12K and see what happens. I do like what that range should sound like (on paper that is)

Hi Archer, I appreciate the meat behind the argument, being an engineering type I dig for facts behind the arguments. OK I'll go with a non-F as I wanted to do a Jazz anyway....

 

[Jester700]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Just another data point about f-spaced...

I've never heard an effect of using non-aligned polepieces (like a standard bucker in a floyded guitar at the bridge) with a bucker coil. I HAVE noticed an effect with single coil type coils (mag poles), but it's subtle enough for me not to go through the hassle of swapping out.

This matters even less at the neck, where string spacing is closer.

 

[fab.regnaut]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

We all saying the same , but why not to try Dimarzio after all ?
It is when you experience yourself that you really learn .
It was my deep philosophical contribution :cool3: :cool3: :cool3: :cool3:

 

[Dave Z]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Hey Fab, I will be trying a Dimarzio FRED (have one in my testbed guitar & like it) but there is a screamin demon trembucker on ebay who knows, if this guitar ends up being dark I might give that a go for a head-on comparison of the 10k superPAFs. Meanwhile the Fspacing inthe nek question seems to be addressed....it'll be a jazz in the neck, had one before in my test axe & liked it a lot. But if I get a deal on a pafpro I'll give them a head-to-head comparison as well.

 

[chill]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Pull that DDn out of the neck and drop it in the strat! Pull that DDn out of the neck and drop it in the strat! :burnout:

 

[adrian]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

When it comes to philosophy and pickup changes. One probably has to decide if one wants a modern pickup or a post-modern.
Modern: something never tested before, an ought-to-be, a test process to find something completely new.
Post-modern: an ironic comment to modernity and a paradoxical longing for something already in the past, an attempt to find something almost identical vintage, but not entirely so.

Dimarzio: modern.
Duncans: post-modern.

Problem solved.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I've installed standard spaced bridge humbuckers in Strats and if the two E strings are not centered over the polepieces I can definately hear that they have a weaker tone than the other four strings. No doubt about it. I can even hear the high E string get louder when I bend it because it is then pulled into position over the polepiece.

For that reason I always install Trembucker spaced pickups in my Strats with a bridge humbucker.

I have FOUR: two with 59 Trembuckers, one with Custom Custom Trembucker and one with a Custom Trembucker.

Don't own any guitars with Dimarzios, BTW! :laugh2: I like the way Seymour, Tom Holmes, Lindy Fralin and Harmonic Design voice thier pickups but Dimarzio's sound kind of metallic or grainy or nasal to me...kind of like the way some New Yorkers talk! :laugh2: My '78 or '79 Hamer Sunburst had a nice Dimarzio neck pickup in it though...I think it was thier take on a paf and I did like that one.

I like humbuckers with more of a vintage paf vibe, even if they're wound alot hotter than a vintage paf. Duncans are my fave.

Lew

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I have been with this board since the beginning and one thing I have noticed is that the emphasis tends to be on deploying and supporting existing products rather than the development of new products. There’s a gold mine worth of ideas here but I don’t think anyone at SD is acting on them. I would like to see SD use this forum as a true focus group. It works for GM, Coke and Pepsi! Make the users of the forum declare and rank the genres of music they listen too in their profile. Then use these genres to qualify development tracks. Get the designers off their asses and make them start prototyping. Take away their cream and led zeppelin records and make them think. Their goal would be to design around what’s new not what’s been done. Then post clips of the prototypes with notes from the developer as to what they were after and offer votes on the product.

Where I would fault SD is their conservatism. They seem to build to the lowest common denominator. Their overwhelming bias seems to be pseudo-vintage. Most of the products are built with the idea that vintage is good and that vintage has to be the basis for future design. I think this leads to a mindset where classic tones are emphasized over new tones. I think marketing might have a big part in this though. I am sure there are marketing people who sit there and shoot down prototypes because they look at the market and can’t figure out where to place a design or how to promote it since it isn’t vintage enough? They look at the cost of advertising, the cost of production and tooling. They start to convince themselves that they can’t afford to produce a pickup that doesn’t have mass appeal. That’s why I like GFS pickups they don’t seem to be hung up on mass appeal. They will build an oddball, describe it well in their literature and then give sound clips to let the buyer decide. When I listen to the GFS sound clips I go “wow they nailed it! I have always heard that sound in my head!” when I listen to SD sound clips I go “I can see where it would be useful but that’s been done before”.

There also seems to be a platform bias with SD products too. You either play a strat, tele or LP. What about the super strats? I think for every LP there are probably a dozen super strats. This is where I think Dimarzio has an edge they build around the super strat platform. They build a pickup around a sound rather than a platform.

Snowdog

 

[wildstar]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

When it comes to philosophy and pickup changes. One probably has to decide if one wants a modern pickup or a post-modern.
Modern: something never tested before, an ought-to-be, a test process to find something completely new.
Post-modern: an ironic comment to modernity and a paradoxical longing for something already in the past, an attempt to find something almost identical vintage, but not entirely so.

Dimarzio: modern.
Duncans: post-modern.

Problem solved.

That post by adrian is 100% pure genius.

Either that or 100% total insanity.

But I'm putting my money on genius.

 

[david kornblatt]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

threre are many great pickups out there but i think we should all get along

 

[fab.regnaut]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Hey Fab, I will be trying a Dimarzio FRED (have one in my testbed guitar & like it) but there is a screamin demon trembucker on ebay who knows, if this guitar ends up being dark I might give that a go for a head-on comparison of the 10k superPAFs. Meanwhile the Fspacing inthe nek question seems to be addressed....it'll be a jazz in the neck, had one before in my test axe & liked it a lot. But if I get a deal on a pafpro I'll give them a head-to-head comparison as well.

Good , to try is the only way to find your tone , even if it means expenses .
So you'll try pafpro in neck and fred in bridge ?
It'll be interesting to compare it with Jazz and Demon if you can .

 

[Dave Z]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Good , to try is the only way to find your tone , even if it means expenses .
So you'll try pafpro in neck and fred in bridge ?
It'll be interesting to compare it with Jazz and Demon if you can .

Yeah, do have to feed the family too of course which is why I try to buy used, but....yes, FRED is in the bridge of the test axe, a Jazz is on the way & I will order a pafPro (Fspaced as I may try that at the bridge as well). Got to get a fspaced FRED after I do the neck bucker comparison in the test axe.

If I can get the demon trembucker for a reasonable cost I'll try that as well.

Putting the finish on the body & neck of the superstrat- that should be done in another week or so. May not get to assembly til xmas break. Cheers.

 

[adrian]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

That post by adrian is 100% pure genius.

You are exaggerating. Slightly.

:eyecrazy:

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Where I would fault SD is their conservatism. They seem to build to the lowest common denominator. Their overwhelming bias seems to be pseudo-vintage. Most of the products are built with the idea that vintage is good and that vintage has to be the basis for future design. I think this leads to a mindset where classic tones are emphasized over new tones. I think marketing might have a big part in this though. I am sure there are marketing people who sit there and shoot down prototypes because they look at the market and can’t figure out where to place a design or how to promote it since it isn’t vintage enough? They look at the cost of advertising, the cost of production and tooling. They start to convince themselves that they can’t afford to produce a pickup that doesn’t have mass appeal. That’s why I like GFS pickups they don’t seem to be hung up on mass appeal. They will build an oddball, describe it well in their literature and then give sound clips to let the buyer decide. When I listen to the GFS sound clips I go “wow they nailed it! I have always heard that sound in my head!” when I listen to SD sound clips I go “I can see where it would be useful but that’s been done before”.

You really hit the nail on the head with this post. Fortunately for SD, musicians are VERY traditional as far as the tones and gear they like, hence, SD's success in the pickup market. Many people assume this "vintage = good" type sentiment in the musical marketplace.


But then there are others who really strive to innovate and don't seem to care what "mass appeal" thinks. This is why I like Dimarzio as well. These guys have TONS of oddball pickups for niche jobs that sound great. They do some serious messing around with weird designs and aren't afraid to release them. Read some of the pickup descriptions on their website....they're dead-on you'll realize after trying the pickup and sound like nothing else. They embraced the super-strat trend and even made many pickups catered specifically to that platform of instrument. Meanwhile SD is bogged down with this:

What most of you probably don't understand is the amount of work that goes into making a production pickup. Even one that's derivative of other designs (e.g., "hot PAF"). There's no such thing as a no-brainer. Even the easiest, most basic pickup, goes through six months to a year of concepting, defining the product, market research, prototype construction, alpha and beta testing, creating bills of material, taking out part numbers, creating assembly procedures, creating fixtures and jigs, writing marketing copy, creating test procedures, creating production drawings and documentation, and -- literally -- hundreds more steps that I haven't mentioned. It's a very long and involved process. We have a small R&D team and everything we do is decided based on cost-benefit calculations.

Now, I understand how things are always more complicated then they may seem on the outside....but seriously...this kind of complication is for building automobiles and medical instruments....not pickups. No wonder they can't get things out the door. This will hurt new product placement for sure in the long run....I've seen it happen to too many companies. Fortunately for SD, they have a big classic pickup line to always fall back on....but they'll rarely be able to forge ahead with much success.


As a lover of classic tones myself I love some of the SD products but I have to say this from my experience with both companies:

If you want to sound like everyone else...go Duncan. If you want to sound like YOU....go Dimarzio.


With that being said, I'm looking to put both a Custom and a Bluesbucker in my guitar

 

[gOgIver]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

If you want to sound like everyone else...go Duncan. If you want to sound like YOU....go Dimarzio.

Some people say the same about Gibson vs. Fender.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

With all due respect to Mr. Skopp it sounds like SD needs to de-bureaucratize, and de-politicize their development staff. Encourage the designers to create prototypes on their own time and allow them to use this board as a test audience to see if their designs have merit and potential consumer appeal. I don't think the perfect pickup for playing Lamb Of God is going to come from tweaking a 59.

What bothers me about Fender and Gibson is how esoteric their guitar lines have become. There's no lack of choices in their line as long as you want a strat or a Les Paul. You pay big money for minor detail improvements.

Snowdog

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

No disrespect taken. As long as you don't take as disrespect your lack of understanding as to what steps and processes need to be taken in order to bring a product to market. I may not be the world's greatest guitar player, but I do know a fair bit about bringing products to market. I'm actually a college-level instructor and this is my subject.

When I read comments like:

this kind of complication is for building automobiles and medical instruments....not pickups. No wonder they can't get things out the door.

I realize the level of understanding I'm dealing with.

Last year we got the following "out the door," the SFX-02 Tweak Fuzz and Basslines Passive Soapars, as well as a redesigned Rails series, covered Trembuckers, pre-matched pickup sets, and other OEM products. In 2006, expect to see a new artist pickup set that is so far from vintage you're gonna take back everything you ever said ; plus a new Stack design for Strat, an extremely cool SFX-03 stomp box, plus OEM products like the Nuno Bettencort Washburn pickup -- and much more that you don't hear about.

Plus, the exact same R&D team is pumping out D-TAR products including the revolutionary 32-bit Mama Bear (brand new technology), plus two new D-TAR pickups.

And how big do you think this R&D team is that's doing all this? It's just three guys: Kevin, Wayne and James. That's it. Sorry, bro, but we don't have enough people to be bureaucratic -- I wish we did.

Here's the deal. We could write specs on a napkin and pump out products based on an engineer's whim and a hearty thumbs-up from the UGF. And, perhaps, that's how some pickup manufacturers work. But that's not what got us to where we are today. Ask yourself this:

When you buy a Seymour Duncan product, do you want it to work as advertised?

Do you want it to last longer than the warranty period?

Do you want a JB built in 2005 to sound exactly like a new one sounded in 1985?

Do you want Seymour Duncan pickups to be mid-level priced (as opposed to boutique priced)?

Do you want our new products to be responsive to greatest chunk of the markets' needs, while we still run a custom shop for special requests?

Do you want the Seymour Duncan company to be profitable enough to maintain a website and this forum (and maybe the occasional UGD)?

Well we do too. And this is how we got to where we are. We're constantly refining our process and doing our best to make it better and reduce the development cycle. And at the same time, we allow our engineers the luxury to create new products based on their ideas and dreams. That's how Mama Bear came about. That's how the new SFX-03 came about. And that's how some of our coolest pickup designs were born.

But, by and large, it's not about throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks. One of the ways we got where we are is with innovative new products that respond to the market's needs and are priced right. And by creating and working a product development process that allows for us to make the most effective use of our R&D resources with minimal wasting of time and maximum return on our investment.

Again, I don't mean to condescend. Everyone has their opinion and we welcome you to express them on this forum. But the amount of mis-information I read on here is starting to get disturbing.

Feel free to say what you like. But take what you read here with a grain of salt.

And feel free to come to the Seymour Duncan board and profess your admiration for our competitor's products and policies. I'm sure if our competitors had a board, they'd welcome the same level of discourse.

Doncha think?

Peace.

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Unfortunately Evan you are fighting against the company's own legacy. The JB is by your own admission one of the biggest selling pups ever. It was product number one was it not? My gut feeling is that design didn't undergo the scrutiny it would today and sold incredibly well which begs the question why can't you catch lightning in a bottle twice?

I'm not saying its a fair question or a reasonable expectation. It just is what it is unfortunately.

On a completely semi related question
1) Would it be possible to define a little better what is and is not possible as a shop floor custom product?
2) Would a little more detail on the custom shop products be possible? I don't think its unreasonable for a little more information be made available on the website about those products.