Wire does it affect the tone ?

[Pat_rocks_and_rolls]

Hello, any infos about wire ? (their tonal properties)

Enamel, formvar, Poly etc...

same question about wire thickness.

Does it affect the tone ?

 

[Mincer]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

If it does, I can't hear it. My first thought is no, unless it is wire that isn't insulated or really fragile and breaks inside the insulation.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

I'm somewhat of a Luddite here but believe tone can be shaped by the fact that insulations differ in thickness and therefore may have a larger size coil for the same amount of winds around the bobbin, etc.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

Hello, any infos about wire ? (their tonal properties)

Enamel, formvar, Poly etc...

same question about wire thickness.

Does it affect the tone ?

Not if it’s the same thickness and has the same build (thickness) of insulation.

Formvar (formal varnish) is generally heavy build for pickups. So each wind is farther from the others. This makes it sound similar to heavier gauge wire. But heavy build poly will sound the same.

And plain enamel sounds like poly or single build formvar.

The effect of wire thickness is generally the heavier the wire, the more highs and lows, which gives it a mid scoop, loose/round kind of tone. Thinner wire has a tighter tone with more mids.

But it all depends on the design of the pickup


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[AlexR]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

Not if it’s the same thickness and has the same build (thickness) of insulation.

This is true......however there is not always such quality of wire construction to be sure that even within a single roll of wire the dimensions are consistent. Big makers will try and buy from the best sources to ensure consistent supply.
Many boutique winders will want to have significant variability as this mimics the measured inconsistencies present in vintage wire.....and indeed spec a typical variation.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

Not if it’s the same thickness and has the same build (thickness) of insulation...

In my experience the different coatings have different dielectric properties. So it’s all dependent upon what your definition of “same” is. Tim Shaw’s intent with his PAF types during his Gibson era was to match the insulation thickness of the old plain enamel with a poly coating. There are other differences as well, in addition to the wire but I’m pretty sure Tim would tell you that there is still a difference even if you match the thickness.

 

[BlueFrankie]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

You guys are way over my head.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Wire does it affect the tone ?

In my experience the different coatings have different dielectric properties. So it’s all dependent upon what your definition of “same” is. Tim Shaw’s intent with his PAF types during his Gibson era was to match the insulation thickness of the old plain enamel with a poly coating. There are other differences as well, in addition to the wire but I’m pretty sure Tim would tell you that there is still a difference even if you match the thickness.

To quote Mike Sulzer from the Pickup Maker’s Forum:

“How much of an effect can it be? Cable capacitance is quite a bit bigger than pickup capacitance, and so you really cannot change the total capacitance very much.”

Which is my thoughts on the matter. Maybe at radio frequencies.

Do we even know what the dielectric constant is for each coating? If you read up on the specs, that detail is never given. I’m guessing that when wire manufacturers develop new insulations they would perform at least as good as the one they are replacing.

The one problem with plain enamel is when it’s old it develops cracks, which obviously is not a good thing.

In my experience I haven’t heard a difference in insulation types, as long as the insulation build is the same.



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[AlexR]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

David Plummer from Zhangbucker is the man around here to add in on this. He's done a lot of experimentation.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

Just giving this a friendly bump for more info. Good stuff so far.

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[GuitarDoc]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

Some interesting things I didn't know. Glad that you guys are sharing this knowledge.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

I can't hear any difference between poly and PE but formvar is very definitely different -- not as airy and sparkly, a bit thicker midrange. This may have less to do with the actual material than with the fact that formvar is almost always double-build, meaning two layers of the insulation, not just one. However, I have not tried any single build formvar so whether it's the material or the extra layer or some combo of the two remains to be seen.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Wire does it affect the tone ?

I can't hear any difference between poly and PE but formvar is very definitely different -- not as airy and sparkly, a bit thicker midrange. This may have less to do with the actual material than with the fact that formvar is almost always double-build, meaning two layers of the insulation, not just one. However, I have not tried any single build formvar so whether it's the material or the extra layer or some combo of the two remains to be seen.

Yep. I’ve used single build formvar. Sounds like poly. I’ve also used double build poly, which sounds like double build formvar.


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