Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

[Diminished Triad]

I've read some posts and articles that indicate the majority of guitar players do not think there is much difference in tone between wood mounted and pickguard mounted pickups. In the SD Forum it seems from reading posts that most here believe the type of wood used to build a guitar has a significant impact on the tone produced by the pickups. At the Warmoth Forum, it's my opinion that a majority of members do not believe the type of guitar wood has much effect on tone and your choice of wood should be more for looks and appearance but not much for sound.

If the type of guitar wood makes a real difference in the sound produced by the pups, would it also not mean that there would be a real difference between wood mounted and pickguard mounted pups? If this is the case, what is the real difference? Thanks so much!

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I've read some posts and articles that indicate the majority of guitar players do not think there is much difference in tone between wood mounted and pickguard mounted pickups. In the SD Forum it seems from reading posts that most here believe the type of wood used to build a guitar has a significant impact on the tone produced by the pickups. At the Warmoth Forum, it's my opinion that a majority of members do not believe the type of guitar wood has much effect on tone and your choice of wood should be more for looks and appearance but not much for sound.

If the type of guitar wood makes a real difference in the sound produced by the pups, would it also not mean that there would be a real difference between wood mounted and pickguard mounted pups? If this is the case, what is the real difference? Thanks so much!

Your logical train of thought does not follow. Whether wood makes a difference has only tertiary connection to direct mounting vs pickguard mounting.

Some people claim there is a sonic difference. I haven't tried direct mounting vs pickguard mounting the same pickup in the same guitar. Basically in pickup rings, pickguards and direct mounting, there is a fairly stiff connection from the pickup to the body If there is any height adjustment available, all systems will be very similar in that the pickup is suspended by string or tubing, and connected to a stiff mounting point which connects with the body.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

It always rubs me the wrong way how so many people at the Warmoth forums do not believe wood has an impact on tone. I have pretty much only been a lurker over there for this very reason. My ears tell me there is a difference and I really can't understand how so many people from the Warmoth forums do not hear it.

Now, from a physics standpoint, my answer to your wood mount vs. pickguard mount is a maybe. To me, the biggest impact possible would be materials coming into direct contact with the way the bridge mounts on the guitar or the material coming into contact with the tuning machines (i.e. wood in most cases on electric guitars). My reasoning is these materials can impact the string vibration directly. Honestly though, there are a lot of factors at play here including the pickups, type of bridge, bridge materials, strings, and electronics (pots, caps, etc) besides wood. Wood is only part of the equation. That being said, physics teaches us that any materials coming into contact with the vibrating string can color the frequency response. Obviously these "materials" are/can be fingers, pick, bridge, tuners and of course since the tuning machines and bridge also transfer vibrations it is only logical to understand the impact wood can also have on this process. This is only taking into consideration the vibrating physics too, there are many unknown factors too.

So, in conclusion, I would have to say maybe on the wood versus pickguard tonal difference possibility but if it did have an impact on the tone it would be one of the things on the very bottom of the list of possibilities.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

The big reason why the mounting method has little impact on the tone at the end is that the pickups are not receiving energy from the wood. They are reading the strings above it.

The wood does impart qualities to the vibration of the strings which the pickups then pickup. But the pickups are not "listening" to the wood directly. Its coming through the strings.

Ive actually done it both ways where I have had direct mounted guitars that I changed to rings then ive had ring mounted guitars that ive changed to direct mount and there is not a sonic difference that I can attribute to the mounting methods.


Think about its pretty simple... take the pickup out of its mounting and put it over by where you rest your arm... lay it against the wood... and play... what sound do you hear come through the pickup? Without steel strings vibrating in the magnetic fields the pickups are effectively "deaf"

 

[blueman335]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

I've got a soap bar P-90 SG that I changed to direct mount. In the PU cavities I built up a platform with wood shims glued on top of each other and screwed the PU's into them. The tone had a little more low end with more sustain. Not a radical change, but there was a discernible difference.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

The irony is it is the Warmoth group probably building more guitars and concluding the type of wood used doesn't have much effect on the tone eventually produced by the pups. The info above is helpful in understanding why mounting pups directly into the guitar wood has little change in pup tone. The wood effects the strings more than anything else so mounting on the pickguard or directly to the body of the guitar matters little. Thanks for the explanation - seems like mounting on a pickguard or on pickup rings is a little easier than going directly to the guitar body. Thanks again!

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

seems like mounting on a pickguard or on pickup rings is a little easier than going directly to the guitar body. Thanks again!

Its definitely easier, its also way way way easier to make adjustments to the height of the pickups. If you have shims you have to remove the pickups and add or remove shims. Where pickguard mounted you just turn the screws.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

If you have shims you have to remove the pickups and add or remove shims. Where pickguard mounted you just turn the screws.

Which is why I've only put shims in one guitar so far.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

At the Warmoth Forum, it's my opinion that a majority of members do not believe the type of guitar wood has much effect on tone and your choice of wood should be more for looks and appearance but not much for sound.

Unless their comments on that subject are limited to figured caps and/or veneers, this is your first indication that this particular group of people knows absolutely nothing about a guitar. While a figured top has a distinct effect on the acoustic tone of an electric guitar, the effect on the amplified tone depends largely on the thickness of the top, with the amount of wood in contact with the bridge being the primary factor there. A hardtail or v-trem sits flat on the figured top, while the inserts for a tuneomatic rest mostly in the core body wood, not the cap, and as long as the bridge does not rest directly on the cap, the core body wood will be the determining factor.


A pickup is not a microphone, and thus cannot detect vibrations from the wood, ergo the method of mounting is irrelevant to the end-result. The only thing direct-mounting can possibly do is add mass to the body, or to be more specific, act as a substitute for the wood removed for the pickup cavity. In blueman335's example, adding wood shims to the pickup cavity to set the pickup at the desired proximity to the strings resulted in filling in the hole with wood AND adding a pickup, and the total mass of those shims and pickup were at least equal to, but more likely greater than, the mass of the wood removed to make the cavity in the first place.

As the string vibrates, the wood resonates. A truly solid-body guitar - one that has no cavities for pickups or controls - will resonate differently before it is routed for pickups, even if those cavities are just big enough to hold the pickup. When the cavity is routed, there is a loss of connection between the wood on either side of the cavity.

By direct-mounting a pickup, the pickup acts as a prosthesis for the amputated wood, transferring the resonance to the body rather than it being diminished by the empty cavity as is the case of a ring/guard-mounted pickup.

However, the pickup takes no notice of this directly, no matter how it's mounted, as it is focused by design only on the strings.

If one were to build a completely solid guitar with no cavities and mount a pickup on an external frame that suspended the pickup over the strings in the correct position (i.e. as it would be were it mounted in the guitar), with the frame not touching the guitar in any way, the amplified result would be considerably different than when the body was routed to fit the pickup.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

The body of a guitar whether it be mostly 1 wood with a veneer, or split evenly between a back wood and a thicker top will always resonate based on the way the two bits combine. As the glue used forms a solid connection between the two (the the wavelengths of many of the produced frequencies are longer than the depth of the body) the two always act a a whole. The specific vibrations being a mix always of the initial motion (tiniest fractions of a second) plus the associated internal reflections (the longer resonance which you then perceive as the 'bodies natural tone').

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Unless their comments on that subject are limited to figured caps and/or veneers, this is your first indication that this particular group of people knows absolutely nothing about a guitar. While a figured top has a distinct effect on the acoustic tone of an electric guitar, the effect on the amplified tone depends largely on the thickness of the top, with the amount of wood in contact with the bridge being the primary factor there. A hardtail or v-trem sits flat on the figured top, while the inserts for a tuneomatic rest mostly in the core body wood, not the cap, and as long as the bridge does not rest directly on the cap, the core body wood will be the determining factor.


A pickup is not a microphone, and thus cannot detect vibrations from the wood, ergo the method of mounting is irrelevant to the end-result. The only thing direct-mounting can possibly do is add mass to the body, or to be more specific, act as a substitute for the wood removed for the pickup cavity. In blueman335's example, adding wood shims to the pickup cavity to set the pickup at the desired proximity to the strings resulted in filling in the hole with wood AND adding a pickup, and the total mass of those shims and pickup were at least equal to, but more likely greater than, the mass of the wood removed to make the cavity in the first place.

As the string vibrates, the wood resonates. A truly solid-body guitar - one that has no cavities for pickups or controls - will resonate differently before it is routed for pickups, even if those cavities are just big enough to hold the pickup. When the cavity is routed, there is a loss of connection between the wood on either side of the cavity.

By direct-mounting a pickup, the pickup acts as a prosthesis for the amputated wood, transferring the resonance to the body rather than it being diminished by the empty cavity as is the case of a ring/guard-mounted pickup.

However, the pickup takes no notice of this directly, no matter how it's mounted, as it is focused by design only on the strings.

If one were to build a completely solid guitar with no cavities and mount a pickup on an external frame that suspended the pickup over the strings in the correct position (i.e. as it would be were it mounted in the guitar), with the frame not touching the guitar in any way, the amplified result would be considerably different than when the body was routed to fit the pickup.

But if wood mounted pickups move slightly differently than pickguard mounted pickups, wouldn't this lead to a difference also in how the wood mounted pups pick up string vibration? If wood does have an effect on how strings vibrate then i would expect something similar with the pickups and if so then some difference between wood mounted and pickguard mounted pickups. Maybe not very much though...

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

But if wood mounted pickups move slightly differently than pickguard mounted pickups, wouldn't this lead to a difference also in how the wood mounted pups pick up string vibration? If wood does have an effect on how strings vibrate then i would expect something similar with the pickups and if so then some difference between wood mounted and pickguard mounted pickups. Maybe not very much though...

No this wouldnt happen like this. Pickups dont "hear" vibration. Put a set of nylon strings on your strat and then tell me how much sound comes out your amp. The guitar will still vibrate, but unless its a steel string which can interact with the magnetic field and cause inductance then you wont get any sound from it.

The only way the mounting method can make a difference in amplified sound is if the change in the method changes how the strings vibrate.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Here is another thought I have. On two of my HH guitars with neck humbuckers mounted via mounting rings I get a slight vibration of the humbuckers rubbing against something when certain notes are played. It drove me nuts for a long time but I have learned to live with it. Of course, the amp does not pick up this vibrating nuisance at all because as Edgecrusher said, there is nothing for the magnets to pick up here as it is plastic rubbing against plastic.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Here is another thought I have. On two of my HH guitars with neck humbuckers mounted via mounting rings I get a slight vibration of the humbuckers rubbing against something when certain notes are played. It drove me nuts for a long time but I have learned to live with it. Of course, the amp does not pick up this vibrating nuisance at all because as Edgecrusher said, there is nothing for the magnets to pick up here as it is plastic rubbing against plastic.

If the pups can detect the slightest change in movement or vibration of strings....in this example caused by a change in the type of wood.....then why would the pups not also be able to detect the apparent movement of strings but not from vibrating wood effecting the bridge or other involved pieces but the pups themselves? If you move the target in one example, but in another you move the camera....both will sense and reflect a different sound/picture than if all things remained still. If the pups detect/reflect string changes in different ways because of what is going on with the pups, wouldn't this be eventually reflected in sound?

 

[Shooter.556]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Wood makes a huge difference in tone... Anyone who says it doesn't needs their ears looked at.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

If the pups can detect the slightest change in movement or vibration of strings....in this example caused by a change in the type of wood.....then why would the pups not also be able to detect the apparent movement of strings but not from vibrating wood effecting the bridge or other involved pieces but the pups themselves? If you move the target in one example, but in another you move the camera....both will sense and reflect a different sound/picture than if all things remained still. If the pups detect/reflect string changes in different ways because of what is going on with the pups, wouldn't this be eventually reflected in sound?

The wood affects the strings and how they vibrate over the duration of the note
A pickup ring is not affecting the strings

end of story.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

If the pups can detect the slightest change in movement or vibration of strings....in this example caused by a change in the type of wood.....then why would the pups not also be able to detect the apparent movement of strings but not from vibrating wood effecting the bridge or other involved pieces but the pups themselves? If you move the target in one example, but in another you move the camera....both will sense and reflect a different sound/picture than if all things remained still. If the pups detect/reflect string changes in different ways because of what is going on with the pups, wouldn't this be eventually reflected in sound?

Sorry ive given you a couple of different examples and you are just not understanding it. Let me try this one. Pickups DO NOT sense all types of vibration. They cant sense wood vibrating. The strings on the other hand are ferrous metal meaning they can be effected by a magnet. This vibrating in the magnetic field generated by the pickup CAN be sensed. This is why i said try nylon strings. Without the steel the pickups wont hear them.

the camera analogy has no bearing here pickups are not cameras and do not operate on the same principles at all.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

Your guitar will be 10% more cool with direct mounted pups.

 

[Lachezar Dochev]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

What about a wooden pickguard insread of plastic? If it is tighltly bolted to the body will it not increase the reflecting qualities of the system (compared to the plastic pickguard) and thus affect the tone?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Wood Mounted vs. Pickguard Mounted Pickups

What about a wooden pickguard insread of plastic? If it is tighltly bolted to the body will it not increase the reflecting qualities of the system (compared to the plastic pickguard) and thus affect the tone?

Reflecting qualities? No idea what you think its reflecting. If you do something that changes the way the body vibrates it might change the tone. If the guitar already had a pickguard changing it from plastic to wood would be insignificant any tonal change would be very slight. The pickguard doesnt form a "resonating chamber" if thats what your thinking