Zephyr Silver background

[frankfalbo]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Do ya'll really anticipate people plugging Marshall heads into hi-fi cabs?
Ditch the 4x12 with greenbacks for a Meyer line array?
Really??
Again, never seen or even heard of anyone doing that with an "electric" guitar before...

It's no different than mixing an album. It has to sound good on a car stereo, boom box, ear buds, Bose home theater, etc. But you wouldn't make critical mixing decisions on those things. If you could, you'd go to Paisley Park or <insert favorite control room here>. In addition I'm sure you're pretty happy with your own control room setup and you can get great mixes on it. And in a pinch, you can mix pretty good tracks into cans if necessary after calibrating yourself to the cans with some reference tracks. But then later going back to the control room, you might expose many smaller details difficult to hear on headphones, fix them, and lo and behold the mix sounds better on the headphones too!

Think of the fancy-pants amps and cabs as test equipment, used to expose things in greater detail like a good control room. We use oscilloscopes, tone generators, and other super-nerd test equipment on pickups too, but you shouldn't put that on your album either. Unless it's that kind of album...:scratchch

 

[sosomething]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Welcome, Phil.

I appreciate the lengthy and exhaustive explanation. I feel I understand this product much more clearly now; the high-end audiophile paradigm applied to magnetic guitar pickups. I'm probably not your customer, but I can get behind the concept.

I'd also like to add that you're an excellent communicator, which is refreshing to see at the executive level.

Thanks again.

 

[Despair]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

>>I'm surprised at how many people are pulling in audiophile speaker cable discussion insanity, when that's got nothing to do with the use.<<

When I refer to audiophile applications as inspiration, I'm not thinking so much about speaker cables but rather silver applications in phono and line-level interconnects, moving coil, interstage, and output transformer windings, moving coil phono cartridges and even tape heads.

I caught that, I was talking about others dismissing silver as buzzword or snake-oil.

>>I'm puzzled by a number of decisions, though. So forward-looking in materials, yet so staid a pickup design.<<

We're not nearly done. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Zephyr is going to be a product series and Zephyr Silver is just a start. We took a step that we could R&D in a short period and launch at NAMM. Now we go from here. You'll see further development from this point of departure.

I'm looking forward to seeing where things go.

J Moose commented about not having heard of people doing that with electric, I certainly have. Les Paul's recording guitar, any number of people attempting to get acoustic sounds out of electrics... xxxplorer's mention of the L-500 is well taken, or Bill Lawrence's L-45S.

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Thank you for the nice and clear explanation behind the concept and the possible future products.
I already found myself thinking about getting a CS PATB made with Zephyr specs. That means, your posts had a good impact on me.
I know it is expensive, but Flatscreens where expensive too. Somebody have to start somewhere!

I also appreciate the sound evaluation technique. Using Zu speakers for finding out the details is pretty much clever, especially to find out the smallest details like saturation, power handling, sustaining the body of the tone etc. Of course we are not going to use our guitar signal on Audiophile tube amps, but those small details are good to find out the benefits of the expensive material, or lack of.

I would try them on Diezel Einstein pretty badly.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Well, ok... if you're gonna go here;

It's no different than mixing an album. It has to sound good on a car stereo, boom box, ear buds, Bose home theater, etc. But you wouldn't make critical mixing decisions on those things. If you could, you'd go to Paisley Park or <insert favorite control room here>. In addition I'm sure you're pretty happy with your own control room setup and you can get great mixes on it. And in a pinch, you can mix pretty good tracks into cans if necessary after calibrating yourself to the cans with some reference tracks. But then later going back to the control room, you might expose many smaller details difficult to hear on headphones, fix them, and lo and behold the mix sounds better on the headphones too!

Think of the fancy-pants amps and cabs as test equipment, used to expose things in greater detail like a good control room. We use oscilloscopes, tone generators, and other super-nerd test equipment on pickups too, but you shouldn't put that on your album either. Unless it's that kind of album...:scratchch

Actually I DO have a scope up most of the time... I'm looking for phase discrepancies that I can't hear among other things. Most of the big consoles, SSL, Raindirk etc. even have scopes built right into the meter bridge. Any 'pro' analog console, even the budget ones like a $3k Allen & Heath have tone generators built into them as well.

As for mixing & speakers I have three setups in the control room...

Dynaudio BM15s - big full range... goes down to about 45Hz before they roll off.

Tannoy PBM6 - typical 'bookshelf' studio monitors... like NS10s

RadioShack piece of crap with a 4" driver... mono... sits about 5 feet from the console.

Truthfully I do about 80% of my EQ'ing and core 'mix framing' on the Dyn's. and about 80% of my balance decisions are made on the 4" radio shack.

I'm not alone in that... Bob Clearmountain has repeatedly said that his favorite speakers for mixing are little powered Apple speakers.

From bob's blog; http://www.mixthis.com/blog.html

3. Listen to your mix on as many different sets of speakers as you can get your hands on, and keep changing monitor levels randomly. Ironically, the only type of speakers that really mean nothing for pop & rock record mixing are large, soffet-mounted studio monitors. Believe it or not, I find the easiest speakers to judge vocal, bass and bass drum levels & eq are my little self-powered Apple computer speakers, that, of course they stopped making.

So I guess we're a couple of freak's for mixing on crappy speakers and boom boxes eh? I'll take that company!!!

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

No you and I are definitely saying the same thing. You have to mix to sound good on all of those things, but if you have the ability to also mix in a good control room, then you do it. You would agree that if you only mixed on the 4" radio shack then you would not have the complete picture. Of course we've listened to the Zephyrs on a full compliment of amplifiers and pedals.

 

[WGTP]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

I may have missed this somewhere, but will the Zephyrs be special versions of existing p.u.s, like JB's, Customs, or etc. or will they be new designs? What a can of worms...

 

[Blix]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

I may have missed this somewhere, but will the Zephyrs be special versions of existing p.u.s, like JB's, Customs, or etc. or will they be new designs? What a can of worms...

From the "New for 2011" posted:


Zephyr Silver pickups combine four distinct innovations unbound from pickup tradition:

Silver Wire Coils — Known as "The Great Conductor" among metals, silver and silver-plated wire's sonic excellence is well established in high fidelity audio applications, including moving coil phono cartridges, vacuum tube amplifier output transformers and cabling. Just as silver in audio makes music reproduction more convincing and alive, in pickup coils it gives your guitar punchier, jumpier, burstier feel with harmonically dense, dripping tone.

Nickel and Stainless Steel Bi-Metallic Pole Pieces — Combining these two premier transformer metals to shape and focus the magnetic field disturbed by your guitar's vibrating strings further contributes to the vivid, energetic sound of Zephyr Silver.

Glass Fiberfill Nylon Bobbin — Every dialectric material imparts its own sonic properties. In listening tests of new, more stable bobbin materials, we chose glass-filled nylon for slight advantages in definition and detail, as well as excellent material stability and consistent finish.

Cryogenic Treatment — Supercooling materials renders permanent improvement to their grain structure. Also an established enhancement in high-end audio, where cable, vacuum tubes and even entire electronic components are cryogenically treated for improvements in clarity and realism, we achieved similar results for guitar tone by cryogenically treating completed pickups, copper and silver alike. Cryo treatment enhances string definition and boosts the "way huge" potential of your guitar.


Each of these options is now available with any Custom Shop order

I'd take that as a yes...

 

[xxxplorer]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

I am intrigued about these pickups, but at a cost that is more than I paid for my guitar, I wouldn't buy them any time soon. If I could afford something like a total custom worked guitar with these then I may.

Then there is the whole thing where I feel guilty enough for buying used WCRs at 200 bucks a set as my skills suck lol. I would need EVH meets Malmsteen meets Paisley meets Les Paul skills hahaha.

I still think that the best sounding guitar stuff is the 'rejects' or mistakes... stuff with personality and quirks. Just my opinion.

Now you gotta make gold pickups and platinum... and sherbert.... tehehehe.

 

[WGTP]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Unobtainium??? What about wire directionality???

I can see a hybrid coming... One coil the Zephr, the other an Antiquity... Best of the old and the new.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

No you and I are definitely saying the same thing. You have to mix to sound good on all of those things, but if you have the ability to also mix in a good control room, then you do it. You would agree that if you only mixed on the 4" radio shack then you would not have the complete picture. Of course we've listened to the Zephyrs on a full compliment of amplifiers and pedals.

I dunno man, I don't think we're saying the same thing... not really.

In audio production its about knowing the transducer and how it translates to the outside world. Experience tells us what's going happen if we do 'X' or hear 'Y' happening and make a change to the controls. Keeping a solid reference point is pretty clutch too.

Stick me in a room with just a set of NS10's and it'll still be pretty groovy. Couple years ago my buddy Dave Martin did a live radio broadcast/recording of The Time Jumpers at the Station Inn in Nashville... mixed at the back of the room on a set of headphones, record got a grammy nomination.

FWIW the Jumpers still play every Monday night at the Station Inn... HIGHLY recommend the show to anyone. Hands down one of the best nights of live music I've ever experienced.

where was I...

Right. Wide/narrowband gee'tar amps.

Reading the whole 'full-range driver' thing is a bit scary... reminded me of a gig I did a long long time ago in my college days. Think it was a benefit show. For reasons that are somewhat unclear I ended up playing, I think it was just my guitar & pedals into a marshall 900 into a 2x10 bass cab. Not a crappy piezo one but something decent like an Eden or SWR and just HATING it the whole time.

Too much top, too much mud... level control on the horn wasn't helping any. it was like pluggin' a dirt box right into a console. Just ugly and harsh. I sorta recall turning the cab around so it was facing a wall or something. Ugh. Lots of alcohol was consumed that night. That's a pretty clear memory!

Man, forgot all about that one.

Anyway I'm all for pushing forward & cracking new ground. I'd LOVE to have a moog guitar... parkers are kinda cool but ultimately not my thing. One of my real good friends is a mutant who plays a Klein through a rack of room and a tweed deluxe. Hes pretty damaged. I've used EMG's plenty of times, bardens... they've got a fairly unique voice.

I just think its kinda odd that nobody has really said or drawn comparisons to any other pickups, past or present from any other builder. I think sound is pretty easy to qualify regardless of price so long as its audible difference. If it takes more then a half dozen flip-flops in an A/B test to make any sorta call then ultimately it doesn't really matter. Get back to making music.

"Feel" is something that's entirely hard to express and qualify, and some gear does indeed "feel" better to play then other pieces. But "feel" is somewhat of an ethereal thing as well and entirely subject to interpretation and RE-interpretation, even on an individual basis... and even by the hour!!!

'Ya know, I'd bet that the vast majority, thought not all... not by a long shot, but most cats, if 'ya gave 'em a bottle of whiskey and a big phat doobie they'd start feeling a whoooole lot better!!

:friday:

At that point all bets on 'feel' are off, from a technical standpoint anyway...

Ultimately though, I guess I agree with one thing kimock said, which was that until it gets into the hands of real players it remains to be seen if this is a "better" pickup or simply a more expensive pickup.

And then how many people have a whole drawer or shelf full of pickups and other projects already sitting around? :scratchch

 

[J Moose]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

I guess to get direct and not be quite so wordy with it... if ya'll have listened to these extensively, then what do they sound like?

Active-ish? Passive? High output? Low output? Lots of chunky mids?

Toss us a bone...

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Thanks for giving such a thorough explanation of the R&D process on these pickups. It made it much clearer to me what the motivation was.

Knowing Frank, and listening to your thought process is what makes me know that the spirit of what Seymour has always been about is alive and well.

First, the idea that traditional pickups still have room for technological advancement is important, because no matter how much the trend is to forge ahead with uber output noiseless pickups, the focus for real tone aficionados and audiophiles is still based in the vintage realm. And this is what you're wise in doing.

You mentioned that of course R&D is factored into the added cost of the Zephyr features. One question on everyone's mind is how low the cost of these features could potentially be, stripping away the development recoup.
This is what determines the numbers sold of course.

You mentioned one of my favorite ideas....using identical guitars of each popular style in order to make accurate comparisons. One idea I've always had (and I'd be a good clinician in this regard, I might add) would be to supply dealers in all the major cities with a backloaded guitar that has demo pickups which snap in. Clinics could be set up to do live demonstrations of popping in various Duncan models, then the demo guitar left with the store for customers to try out. Just an idea you might give some thought to.

Overall, I'm impressed with your approach, and congratulate the Seymour Duncan company for hiring someone with passion and obvious wisdom for all things audio and business related. Your writing says a lot. I particularly laughed out loud at this mastery of the English language! haha
As a matter of fact, I'm making it my signature at the bottom of each of my posts!

"Some of the guitar players in-house gave me the oblique squint when I first started describing what I heard, but as they listened, the hairy eyeball got holstered."

 

[skynyrd]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

welcome Phil,, how about a Gary Rossington signature pup from his 59 LP Bernice ? Billy Gibbons got his Pearly Gates,, Gary should get his Bernice

 

[Artie]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Do ya'll really anticipate people plugging Marshall heads into hi-fi cabs?

Again, never seen or even heard of anyone doing that with an "electric" guitar before...

Oddly enough, my main system is any one of several front-ends, (Johnson J-Station, Yamaha FX-500 or MagicStomp, etc.), plugged into a Teac mixer>Crown DC-150A amp>Yamaha NS-1000m studio monitors. Its a cool setup for hearing the differences between guitars and pups . . . and it sounds great. I also like just playing through my Hughes & Kettner, but the studio setup is perfect for "clean".

On the subject of "clips", I don't think this will be very useful. The Duncan CD's of clips that I have now are more a collectors item, or novelty, than purchasing aid. You wouldn't compare a Mark Levinson to a Krell with clips, and I don't think these Zephyrs will reveal themselves either. Nor will A/B guitar store demos. You'll just have to buy one and live with it awhile. I think.

As for the price structure, I'll probably never be able to own a Bugatti Veyron, but I feel better knowing that someone, somewhere, makes them, sells them, and buys them.

 

[fretburner]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

The Zephyr Silver is like an Aston Martin One-77. The Veyron is Ugly!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

First off, I think some of you guys are mistakenly expecting these to be "bar guitar" pickups. While you could certainly replace the import pickups in your agathis/plywood Epi or RG or LTD with Zephyrs, quite frankly that'd be f'n stupid.

By the same token, you could drop them into your VOS Gibson LPC and take it out to your local bar gig, or even your world tour, playing them through your direct-to-p.a. setup.

Will the average audience give a rat's butt? No.

Is silver really something you want to sweat on?


These are (from what I can see in Phil's explanation) Audiophile pickups. There's nothing wrong with that. It's admirable, and probably the last thing missing from the Audiophile World.

However, the problem is the "average guitarist". How do these sound compared to a JB? How about "not"? "We" try to relate everything to a simplistic reference point like that. While not a bad thing, "we" have to accept the fact that not everything made is going to fit everyone, and just because it looks like a duck, it does not have to quack like a duck or walk like a duck.

 

[Artie]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

The Zephyr Silver is like an Aston Martin One-77. The Veyron is Ugly!

Granted. I was thinking more in terms of ultimate performance.

These are (from what I can see in Phil's explanation) Audiophile pickups. There's nothing wrong with that. It's admirable, and probably the last thing missing from the Audiophile World.

You said, (much better than me), what I was trying to say. These pups will be for the "executive" noodler, who plugs them into their Manley Voxbox, then into their Perreaux 750, and into their "left" Infinity SRS that they pull out from the basement. (After they spilled beer on the "right" one.) It will be "fun" noodling.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

Can't wait for the awesome rock'n'roll in cryo and silver!
.....

 

[Gr8Scott]

Re: Zephyr Silver background

So to put the Zephyr pickups in perspective, it's sort of Seymour Duncan Corporation's analog to the Bugatti Veyron. The Veyron was meant to push the boundaries of the company and it's technology. It was built to see what was possible instead of just what is marketable. I personally think it's interesting even though I don't think I'll be taking a stab at silver wire any time soon. I'm not a good enough player to warrant that kind of expenditure on pickups. If I were a pro, I might be thinking differently however.

On the subject of making money. I don't begrudge anyone for making a dollar, so long as it's an honest dollar. If you put out a product that people want to buy and they are satisfied with their purchase, what could possibly be wrong with that? Best of luck to you and the rest of the folks in Santa Barbara. I hope you do well with this new product and I will be interested in seeing what develops as a result of this new product as well. Seems like there has already been an impact on the options at the custom shop. I welcome it.