Passive bass pickups with active EQ--underrated setup?

[Inflames626]

I like to leave the 100 hz to 200 hz range for the bass to live in also.

I find chugs often depend upon compression settings and whether you want some mild pumping on the low end.

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't lopass guitars at all these days. It's not like there's much going on up ther anyway. Most speakers tend to have a sever rolloff at like 5-6K. I like the little frying bacon texture to power chords, LOL. Makes me think "Swedish Death Metal".

I also used to use multiband compression on guitars to tame the palm-mutes, but these days, I just dial in my tones a little lighter on bass overall and have the palm-mutes hit hard when they need to.

I saw a vid with Josh Middleton where he says he doesn't hipass or lopass at all. I do love his tones, although I don't think Sylosis' mixes are his doing at all.

I do like my guitars very wide-range, like I said. And even though I was a bassist for the longest, the first thing I listen to in all mixes are the rhythm guitars and then the huge-sounding drums.

I love the bass tone on Alive or Just Breathing being very prominent. But at the same time, I think the guitar tone suffers from that being all wiry, thin, and scratchy. I also love the bass tone on Pantera records, especially from FBD and later, but I don't really play anything like Pantera, and I don't think their aesthetic would fit my style.

[El Dunco]

.

I’m right with you. I’m sick of aggressively hi-passed guitars. I get surgical with the guitar track’s low end in the studio, narrow cuts to wobbly “junk” frequencies, gentle dips where it may clash with the other instruments and lo-passing to where you can only just hear the difference for clarity.

I can’t abide the armchair engineer advice of lo-passing guitars at 200hz. It might make it easier to mix but to use construction as an analogy, to that’s like using really loose tolerances. I prefer purpose built, tight tolerances. EQd and balanced perfectly for the right balance of clarity in the mix and keeping the body intact and feeling the cabinet thump. To use one of our songs as an example, there’s a lot happening here but everything is crystal clear. When the guitars play on their own at 3:51 (and the all out thrashing before), you still hear the low end punching you in the chest.

[Chistopher]

This is why I leave this type of buisness to the sound guys. The only rules I know about mixing is always plug into a speaker sim then DI box before you go to the mixer.

[Inflames626]

For me a lot of this depends on "sizzle," "grit," "fry," etc., in the high end of the guitar signal, or as I call it, scratchiness. I find it competes with the cymbals if the guitar isn't dialed in right.

It's one reason why, for rhythms, out of SD's lineup I may go for a Custom instead of a Distortion. There's less breakup and more clarity. A single guitar with a scratchy pickup, maybe two, might be fine, but if I start adding on more guitars than that, it becomes a mess.

Something else is depending upon register on the neck cymbals and guitar solo notes can start to rub.

Mostly I find if you just start with a good pickup/sample instead of trying to salvage a bad one that saves you a lot of work later.

[Inflames626]

Something else is the percussive, palm muted low end of a guitar and the cabinet thump from that sounds very different from a bass, which doesn't really sound good palm muted in metal, IMO.

Tube sag settings in plugins also affect this, I think. I think of a longer, looser sag time as being associated with a Dual Rec sound that produces a pleasant sound.

A bass on chugs, especially if it's just a DI sound and isn't compressed, seems to lack a lot of punch, even though it does produce a very clean and articulate top end.

[Rex_Rocker]

I've never had a problem with my guitars' high-end competing with cymbals, but then again, I've laways used pre-mixed cymbal samples (Steven Slate Drums). Although, TBH, his cymbals aren't very well-regarded. They do sound kinda thin, TBH.

I do undestand your approach to mixing is different than mine. You seem to go more for a tight Thrash Metal aesthetic, and I go more for a Swedish Death Metal aesthetic.

I don't really like narrow-sounding guitars in Metal, personally. I've not really spent much time judging other genre's productions. I do know, for example, I hate Fluff's approach to dialing in his tones. He seems to go very light on bass and very heavy on mids.

[Inflames626]

I've never had a problem with my guitars' high-end competing with cymbals, but then again, I've laways used pre-mixed cymbal samples (Steven Slate Drums). Although, TBH, his cymbals aren't very well-regarded. They do sound kinda thin, TBH.

I do undestand your approach to mixing is different than mine. You seem to go more for a tight Thrash Metal aesthetic, and I go more for a Swedish Death Metal aesthetic.

I don't really like narrow-sounding guitars in Metal, personally. I've not really spent much time judging other genre's productions. I do know, for example, I hate Fluff's approach to dialing in his tones. He seems to go very light on bass and very heavy on mids.

Fluff's sound to me is pretty thick but he writes what I called "dad riffs." It's very Godsmack-ish. Sully Erna used to work as a contractor I think, so I call it "carpenter rock." Beards and flannel. It's for guys who like to write riffs in drop tunings but don't do Paul Gilbert style stuff, which, despite its age, is still useful for developing alternate picking chops and doing something slightly more advanced--say Amon Amarth.

Fluff is super pedestrian. I can't think of a single original song of his. He's a guy who's famous because he makes videos for Gen Z kids wanting to learn recording, so he gets his name put on plugins, sample packs, and whatnot. Next thing you know he may try a guitar company. He's an influencer, not a real musician or recording artist.

Compare this to Kiko Loureiro who did his stuff in Angra and now Megadeth and puts out instructional guitar videos of real quality. Dirk Veurberen as well (loved Dirk in Scarve and Soilwork, although he doesn't put out many videos anymore).

YouTube guitarists/producers are essentially gear/software selling infomercials. Why should I buy an impulse response pack from one guy when another guy is selling something nearly identical, or I can just find free, open source IRs? That said, they're usually of a younger generation who weren't old enough to record/tour in the 90s, the last time metal music was truly marketable in terms of album sales. "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey," might have shown this extend to 2006 or so, but the scene went underground again not by being buried but by there being so much content published online that good bands were hiding in plain sight.

Also by Swedish death metal, I think a lot depends on Stockholm vs. Gothenburg. Stockholm sound like old Entombed is a lot more raw. Gothenburg mostly sounded more polished but the bass in those mixes is in there more as a glue than as its own thing. I did think it was interesting in the mid 00s when Ola Flink of Soilwork was using Gibson basses. He had a really up front, vintage tone for a time.

Relative to 80s thrash metal, thumpy, felt kicks are getting more massive and clicky all the time. Double bass and blast beats used to be rare things used to impress. Now they are on all the time. Meanwhile guitar wants more low end, but tight low end. Between those two there really isn't anywhere for the bass to stand out, IMO.

It's not quite at 80s levels, but I think the bass in a lot of modern death metal is pretty suppressed in the mix, mostly to showcase the kick and low end of the guitars. It's heard as far as it is felt, but instead of hearing a distinct instrument, with the bass you're hearing a bridge between the kick and low end of the guitar that holds everything together.

[Inflames626]

Something else is on a lot of basses with dual coil soapbar pickups the mids tend to be scooped out. This seems really popular on metal basses right now--essentially 5 string hum canceling Jazz basses--whereas I prefer more of a PJ sound. Those scooped mids make the bass felt more than heard.

[Rex_Rocker]

Fluff's sound to me is pretty thick but he writes what I called "dad riffs." It's very Godsmack-ish. Sully Erna used to work as a contractor I think, so I call it "carpenter rock." Beards and flannel. It's for guys who like to write riffs in drop tunings but don't do Paul Gilbert style stuff, which, despite its age, is still useful for developing alternate picking chops and doing something slightly more advanced--say Amon Amarth.

Fluff is super pedestrian. I can't think of a single original song of his. He's a guy who's famous because he makes videos for Gen Z kids wanting to learn recording, so he gets his name put on plugins, sample packs, and whatnot. Next thing you know he may try a guitar company. He's an influencer, not a real musician or recording artist.

Compare this to Kiko Loureiro who did his stuff in Angra and now Megadeth and puts out instructional guitar videos of real quality. Dirk Veurberen as well (loved Dirk in Scarve and Soilwork, although he doesn't put out many videos anymore).

YouTube guitarists/producers are essentially gear/software selling infomercials. Why should I buy an impulse response pack from one guy when another guy is selling something nearly identical, or I can just find free, open source IRs? That said, they're usually of a younger generation who weren't old enough to record/tour in the 90s, the last time metal music was truly marketable in terms of album sales. "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey," might have shown this extend to 2006 or so, but the scene went underground again not by being buried but by there being so much content published online that good bands were hiding in plain sight.

Also by Swedish death metal, I think a lot depends on Stockholm vs. Gothenburg. Stockholm sound like old Entombed is a lot more raw. Gothenburg mostly sounded more polished but the bass in those mixes is in there more as a glue than as its own thing. I did think it was interesting in the mid 00s when Ola Flink of Soilwork was using Gibson basses. He had a really up front, vintage tone for a time.

Relative to 80s thrash metal, thumpy, felt kicks are getting more massive and clicky all the time. Double bass and blast beats used to be rare things used to impress. Now they are on all the time. Meanwhile guitar wants more low end, but tight low end. Between those two there really isn't anywhere for the bass to stand out, IMO.

It's not quite at 80s levels, but I think the bass in a lot of modern death metal is pretty suppressed in the mix, mostly to showcase the kick and low end of the guitars. It's heard as far as it is felt, but instead of hearing a distinct instrument, with the bass you're hearing a bridge between the kick and low end of the guitar that holds everything together.

Oh, yeah, I do like the Gothenburg sound more, but I do like Entombed's tones.

I think of Fluff kinda like that character Steve Buscemi plays that's like "Hello, fellow kids" or whatever. On his vids he's so excited about the new Tom Delonge sig. I'm like, dude... aren't you a little old for Pop Punk? LOL.

[Inflames626]

Oh, yeah, I do like the Gothenburg sound more, but I do like Entombed's tones.

I think of Fluff kinda like that character Steve Buscemi plays that's like "Hello, fellow kids" or whatever. On his vids he's so excited about the new Tom Delonge sig. I'm like, dude... aren't you a little old for Pop Punk? LOL.

Exactly my criticism with him. He's sort of a Pacific Northwest 90s hipster masquerading as a 2020s Dad rock metal dude.

[Inflames626]

Something else I'm considering doing next time I mix is instead of doing the boost, sweep, and cut method, narrowing the Q as little as possible to find the fundamental frequency of each instrument and then gradually expanding from there until the instruments overlap and gel.

Wide frequency response is fine when something plays by itself but if a lot of it just gets shelved in a mix it's a waste IMO.

It would also help if I knew how to route Voxengo Span a little better so I could see all instruments in different colors on screen at once. But usually there is so much overlap in a full mix that mixing with one's eyes is kind of useless.

[El Dunco]

There was supposed to be a video link in my last post.

Fixed so the timecode makes sense.

[Rex_Rocker]

Something else I'm considering doing next time I mix is instead of doing the boost, sweep, and cut method, narrowing the Q as little as possible to find the fundamental frequency of each instrument and then gradually expanding from there until the instruments overlap and gel.

Wide frequency response is fine when something plays by itself but if a lot of it just gets shelved in a mix it's a waste IMO.

Different approaches to mixing. I like my mixes very guitar-centric, but I also like big roomy drums (although with a dry typewriter kick). I'm guilty of liking very mainstream 2000's Metal production, TBH. Guitly pleasure of mine.

What's your favorite mix, curious? What do you like to reference? For me, it's As I Lay Dying - Shadows Are Security. Very Gothenburg-y vibe to the mix (and music), just a little more polished and 2000's. I do prefer what Colin Richardson does with drums, though. So for me, An Ocean Between Us is right up there. I also liked what Jens Bogren did on At War with Reality. And Deceiver of the Gods.

[Inflames626]

At this point anything post 2000 or so sounds really clinical and same-ish. I'd have to get back to you on it.

The 90s IF records were a big influence but at the time they very much reminded me of AJFA. Lots of preamp distortion, scooped (I didn't know they were in C as a teenager--I just thought they had more low end dialed in). Bjorn's drums were paper thin. Johann Larson's bass was, for IF, very mid forward. I used to not like it but now whenever I hear "Whoracle" I like the bass counter melody to the acoustics. It's a bass sound I wish they'd get back to.

When I was coming up during the nu metal period everything was very bass forward. Tony Campos of Static X comes to mind. At the same time the bass was mid scooped. The kicks aren't super busy in nu metal, or the bass is in sync a lot with the kick, so they can do that. Everybody wanted to be Fieldy, but I though Chi Cheng of Deftones had a better bass tone.

I was more influenced by late 80s/early 90s stuff, and Gothenburg to my ear was just taking that and turning it up by making the drums faster and the guitars thicker.

Generally I find my mixes well-balanced but thin. They lack a lot of depth. This is probably from my dislike of using any more compression than is necessary, since most compressors are used badly. I tend to master with presets and then tweak a bit to taste. Less than ideal listening environment so I do whatever I like that sounds good at home and how it turns out in the car or on other systems is just how it turns out. You can't make it perfect on every system.

It seems like most bands now want loudness, fullness, thickness, and lots of dynamic range. I get that. But I also want clarity because I can remember hearing a lot of albums in the 90s where I was frustrated that I couldn't hear the parts against each other to learn them.

A lot of 80s Queensryche inspires me, especially the articulation of the bass (Neil Kernon did "Rage for Order" and later worked with Cannibal Corpse, a band that sounds completely unlike Queensryche). Kernon and Peter Collins, who did "Operation Mindcrime," are both English, as was Martin Birch, producer of most of the classic Iron Maiden records up until 1995.

A lot of the Testament and Death records inspired me as well, although with Death I don't like fretless bass for metal because it peeks in and out of the mix even though the fills sound glorious.

By about 2005 I was 25 and largely over being influenced. Everything started sounding the same. My buddy Justin (I posted a link to his band Poisonwood on another thread) is really inspired by Mors Principium Est, although I don't listen to them much.

I like the Therion records also--especially their lyrical themes about academic topics and obscure esoterica.

I liked Sylvia Massey's work on Tool's "Undertow" album, although I consider her very much an early 90s grunge/alternative type of producer.

Of course, Fleming Rasmussen and Michael Wagner's work on "Master of Puppets" is classic.

Back then it sounds like they really had to tweak and work at getting good sounds. Now everything sounds kind of canned. "High gain death metal tone. Just add water." (Metalocalypse reference.)

I mean, Job for a Cowboy, Daath, Converge, Knocked Loose, most of the stuff played on SiriusFM's "Liquid Metal" just sounds the same.