Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

I kinda was minding my own business actually All I said in the other thread in reply to the post above me was that I use my ears when I play...not theory 'cuz I find that to be a better, more effective & fun approach to the sort of stuff I do. That's what set this off in the other "theory' thread..

This thread that I started was again about how I was able to re-affirm my position based on the various blogs/websites I checked out 'cuz I had'nt read anything anywhere that 'caused me to change my views. I then said anyone was free to add their two bits if they felt differently. I did'nt ask anyone anything about theory at all 'cause I've got bugger-all interest in it ...as I've repeatedly said before

..& I'll be waiting with baited breath

Don’t remember the other thread, so this one appeared to be you baiting people into a fight. Apologies if I misunderstood the intent.

I may not be able to shred the blues as you do, but I can downpick “Master of Puppets” at 220bpm. I’ll record some stuff in the near future.

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

I hear ya, but consider this:

I absolutely agree with you about the whole “to each his own“ thing, but the difference between someone who plays with no knowledge of theory whatsoever and someone who plays and has tons oh theory background isn’t quite as black and white as you make it seem. Just because someone knows theory, DOESN’T mean that they sat around doing nothing musically during the time of their study. I know LOTS of musicians (as do you I’m sure) and my experience has been that most of the guys who know theory well started out with just their ears. They didn’t need to “pass a course“ or anything like that in order to be able to play, but rather learned the theory because they were interested in it or had a desire for further knowledge.

But theory is absolutely NOT a requirement of good musicianship. I think it’s like any other subject. For instance, I work for a paint manufacturer and have been selling paint for about 30 years. About three years ago I started working at our factory/ distribution center as our buyer and at that time started rubbing elbows more with the guys who actually make the products. To be honest, I am a guy who knows the features and benefits, but to this day when they start talking about all the additives, binders, pigments, defoamers, resins, and other sciency stuff that goes into a gallon of paint my eyes still glaze over because I could give a rats ass about what’s in it. I know it’s important, but I simply don’t care enough about it to feel like learning it.… and I don’t NEED to learn it in order to be able to sell it. But at the same time I have nothing but respect for those who DO care about it... I need them as much as they need me, and every once in a while, no matter how hard we try NOT to, we learn something from one another that actually comes in handy.

Music theory is the same way… If you want to cruise by with just your ears then that’s absolutely what you should do, but don’t pretend that the guys who do enjoy learning theory have nothing to offer musically. Learning theory, despite some of the talk out there, does NOT squash creativity one iota.


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Agreed. Never said all guys who know next to everything about theory play like **** or I would'nt be buying, Yngwie, Vai & Dream Theater albums for the last 30+ years ...and I have plenty of each. I said I'm not bowled over by everyone who announces to me that they're theory genius's...or starts spouting streams of music theory jargon 'cause I've heard a lot of those guys playing atrociously afterword. Tin-eared/tone deaf & lacking any kind of chops/bends/vibrato/musicality. Sorry if I come across as unkind..but I'm just stating facts. I assume it's because they're unable to process all that information in their heads down to their fingers. Maybe it's lack of practice, ear-training or whatever...I don't know or really care. Just saying they're out there.. and plenty of them. Just as their are plenty of great players both with & without theoryl know-how.

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Don’t remember the other thread, so this one appeared to be you baiting people into a fight. Apologies if I misunderstood the intent.

I may not be able to shred the blues as you do, but I can downpick “Master of Puppets” at 220bpm. I’ll record some stuff in the near future.

It's all good. I do my stuff, you do your's.. (the way we want to do it) ...we both enjoy ourselves in the bargain & don't bad mouth each other's ****.

...& there's no problem as far as I'm concerned

[Francois]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

What you read on those blogs were lame excuses not to learn something usefull.

Any knowledge can be lead to new musical ideas. Do not write them off.

I don't particularly admire cold music school-like shredding and prefer music played from the soul, but :

Lately i met a guitarist tuned in drop A but he called it "Drop B" and he also complained that he did not liked playing in A.
After enquiry I found out that for him playing in A meant "Standard E tuning"
How disgracing not even knowing the name of the strings.

Some people think they loose time learning basics. I also into exotic languages and I remember some people who thought they might learn faster asiatic languages by non learning the script... But in reality they are just missing important concepts that woud have help them to really learn the language.

[Gtrjunior]

Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Don’t remember the other thread, so this one appeared to be you baiting people into a fight. Apologies if I misunderstood the intent.

I may not be able to shred the blues as you do, but I can downpick “Master of Puppets” at 220bpm. I’ll record some stuff in the near future.

That’s hardly shredding. Quickly moving your fingers haphazardly through a scale does not a shredder make

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Agreed. Never said all guys who know next to everything about theory play like **** or I would'nt be buying, Yngwie, Vai & Dream Theater albums for the last 30+ years ...and I have plenty of each. I said I'm not bowled over by everyone who announces to me that they're theory genius's...or starts spouting streams of music theory jargon 'cause I've heard a lot of those guys playing atrociously afterword. Tin-eared/tone deaf & lacking any kind of chops/bends/vibrato/musicality. Sorry if I come across as unkind..but I'm just stating facts. I assume it's because they're unable to process all that information in their heads down to their fingers. Maybe it's lack of practice, ear-training or whatever...I don't know or really care. Just saying they're out there.. and plenty of them. Just as their are plenty of great players both with & without theoryl know-how.

Pretty sure you’re referring to me here
Please , go find a post...any post where I claimed to be “theory’s genius”.

I’m flattered that you think that of me though [emoji8][emoji8][emoji8]

[devastone]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

I'm not talking about advanced theory, knowing chord extensions, or being able to write anything on paper. I'm talking rudimentary ear stuff, like being able to play in key around a tonal center. I hate to be critical, but since you started this thread looking to argue about why you don't need to know anything and came out with guns blazing, here you go. It all of the clips you posted, technique aside, it sounds like playing random notes across basic chord progressions. The soloing has no tonal center, therefore there is never any resolution, it can't be called "outside", because it's never "inside". It sounds like mindless flailing on the strings. So, yes, some learning some basics would do wonders for you, like learning the pentatonic scales and how they work across chords. And since you brought up "theory doesn't teach you how to bend, or vibrato", you need to work on controlling your bends so they hit a specific note, not just moving the string, I notice you pull the string down in some of the videos, try bending up, at least on the g, b, and e strings (the skinny ones), it will give you more control.

Sorry, I honestly feel bad posting this, hopefully it will have a positive outcome. Of course, based on previous posts, you may be impervious to it.

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

To the question “Is theory necessary for rock & Metal?,” the correct answer is indeed “No, but...”

Can you provide an example of someone completely ignorant to any theory who’s playing is considered interesting by most?

[GuitarStv]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

well, I agree with you and that's basically what I've been saying all along myself. I don't have to get it from a book...that's the difference. If you're (ie..anyone's) out their poring over theory books, attending theory classes etc & I'm out there playing what your learning that way already by using my ears ..well that's just fine by me then (way I look at it)

I personally don't have any interest in how things work in music as long as my ears tell me they work. You (ie...anyone) are most welcome to do whatever the **** you please though...that's your thing...leave me at mine

I followed the same approach for a long time myself. The elementary school that I went to was in a small community in Northern Ontario. We didn't have music in the school. When I went to high school, there was no music teacher either. Because of this, I picked up guitar entirely on my own. And I was super proud of that. Screw theory. I can do everything myself. By listening to songs and trying to play along, memorizing the shapes of chords, trying to figure out stuff by ear. And it works. Kinda. But only to a point.

Eventually I wanted to write music. Like for a whole band. Not having the musical language to tell a drummer what pattern I want him to play is a huge disadvantage. Not knowing scales/chords and how they go together means that when you go to write a bass part it will take an awful lot longer. I ended up with dozens of cool riffs and song ideas that ended up going nowhere . . . because I didn't understand enough about theory to fit them properly into a song. Trying to learn other instruments (mandolin, harmonica, tenor guitar) was effectively impossible . . . because there just aren't enough hours in the day to figure out stuff by ear and memorize it without developing a giant system to keep track of things. Even if you are a genius and do eventually develop your own system of how sounds work together . . . you know what that system is called? Music theory.

So whatever. I gave up on writing music. That must be for nerds. Maybe I'd just become a great soloist. And not like one of the ones that needs to know how to play lots of weird scales. A great blues soloist. So I memorized a minor pentatonic scale and went to town. I could suddenly play over every blues song ever! And the notes might not always sound great, but they didn't usually sound like ****! Awesome. No need to waste time on theory. Except what I noticed was that no matter how nicely I'd vibrato, slide, and bend notes, every once in a while I'd hit a note that sounded amazing and every once in a while I'd hit a note that sounded kinda bleh. But I couldn't figure out exactly why this was happening. So **** it. The minor pentatonic obviously wasn't the right scale. I memorized a blues scale box. Same damned thing. I wanted to be able to lay into that amazing note at will . . . but to do that I had to understand what was playing in the backing track, and why certain notes would sound a certain way over a certain chord. Just memorizing notes wasn't enough. Just using my ears to pick out something that sounds good was way too slow while in the middle of a fast progression. ****. Music theory again.

So, again . . . **** it. I can become the greatest rhythm guitarist in the world. I just need to memorize a few chord shapes and I can play any song. Easy-peasy. So I memorized barre chords - the A, Am, E, and Em shapes. Then I memorized the notes on the E and A string. Bam. Done. Now I can play any song, just gotta look up the chord chart or spend a few hours listening to it. Wait what the ****. I'm playing the right chords . . . but they don't sound quite right. What is going on. On no. I need to learn about inversions, voice leading, and how the bass and guitar work together to make something greater than the sum of it's parts. There are thousands of chords. Way too many to just memorize. Damned music theory is in everything!

So yeah. Boring as it can be at times, seemingly useless as it can be at times . . . I eventually started to teach myself little bits of theory here and there. And lo and behold . . . everything on guitar got easier. It was easier to learn tunes by ear. It was easier to memorize solos. It was easier to write music. It was easier to pick up other instruments. It was easier to write and figure out cool rhythm parts. I lost nothing, but gained a huge amount. It ended up making me much more creative and productive . . . because so much less time was wasted faffing around guessing at what would sound good.


I'm not an advocate of sitting down and spending weeks/months just reading through a music theory book. What works best is picking one small part of a theory concept, and then figuring out how applying it to the music you like to make is awesome. So, for example . . . I wanted to solo over blues. I had memorized the minor pentatonic box pattern. Then I figured out where the root notes, 4ths, and 5ths were in that pattern. Then I spent some time listening to the chords in the background and figuring out that targeting the root of the chord on the backing track always sounded great. Boom. A small, digestible, completely useful chunk of music theory.

Then expanding the same concept, I figured out where the third and fifth of the chords on the backing track were . . . and realized that targeting them instead of the root note still sounded good . . . but in a different way. Etc. Because I learned these concepts using music theory and not by figuring them out by ear, I was able to apply them to other styles of music. I was able to expand upon them into other areas (chord building/upper extensions, modal concepts, etc.) Then these areas lead to others. My point is that tiny, usable chunks of music theory are applicable, and really should be something that every musician regularly works on simply to make their lives easier.

It's possible to learn this stuff without a book and on your own, but you're really short changing yourself by doing so because you will miss out on all the crossover benefits that learning proper theory will teach you.

[GuitarStv]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Uh . . . TLDR - Maybe you hate theory because your approach to it is wrong. Theory is best enjoyed in small, practical chunks.

[Masta' C]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Wow, how is this thread still rolling?

Here's the take-away:

• Is advanced theory required for rock/metal? No
• Does it hurt to learn theory? No
• Could the OP benefit from theory?

While several of the responses here are genuinely valuable to a *reasonable* person asking themselves if they would benefit from investing some time in theory, the OP clearly isn't *reasonable* and wasn't really asking a question that needed an answer. This thread feels a bit like a circle-jerk with no happy ending.

Obviously, there's no convincing the OP of anything different than what he already believes. He plays within a limited scope and has convinced himself that he will never benefit from theory within that scope. That's fair. We each have our journey, goals and interests and there's no "right way" to do any of this. No sense in trying to convince him otherwise.

[devastone]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

I'm sorry, I had stepped out, but curiosity got the better of me and I had to listen to the videos that got posted, took me a while to figure out they were the OP, but they all had a common theme, or lack thereof.

Yes, I agree, he is not going to listen, this thread is a dead horse, so have a nice day gents.

[Mincer]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

I agree. This seems like someone arguing for limitations. It doesn't belong here.