How does a bobbin matter in sound?

[SJ318]

Been a question in my mind for a long time now,
Evan Skopp said when comparing 2 different pickups in a recent post that everything about the Antiquity was different than some other pup, forget which, but he named off everything you can, wire gauge , magnet calibration, base plate, etc. All the things most of us know, but for years now I have never been able to understand why the material a bobbin is made from matters.
Are they not all some kind of plastic?
If they are, plastic shouldn't matter in the pickup sound. The only thing that I can figure would be if the bobbin was a different thickness or shape. But if the bobbin shape is the same, why would different plastics change the sound. Plastic is inert, and has no sound or magnetic properties to it. So someone tell me what is wrong with my thinking, as everyone says this, from Throwbak to Stephen's D. To S.Duncan.
Thanks,
SJ

 

[El Supremo]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

I wouldn't think it would differ soundwise (like you said). Use of other materials these days had something to do with heat during the wax potting process if I remember correctly.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Duncan uses AFAIK, three types of humbucker bobbins: Polycarbonate, Butyrate and "Glass Fiberfill Nylon" on their Zephyr line.

Polycarbonate is used in their production types, like the '59, JB, all Trembuckers, etc.

Butyrate is used in their more "Vintage accurate", like Antiquity, Seth Lover and in Custom Shop offerings.

All three have slight differences in the dimension and the shape of the core, which is said to have a great impact in the basic tonal footprint, that can then be shaped with the way the wire is laid. Also, different materials have different rigidity factors in providing counter-torque physical support for the wound bobbin, giving more or less flexibility to allow more or less room to vibrate, factor known as "microphonics", which, to a certain degree, is desirable, specially to the PAF lover.

I have a theory in which the basic tone of a bobbin is set by its geometry of TPL, tension and scatter, within the first half of the total turns, being the second half what it gives the desired output the design calls for.

Not having access to precision-measuring equipment, I don't have any hard evidence to prove my claim; it's just a "hunch", based on observation and close listening for a number of years, but fallible as subject of personal taste bias.

HTH,

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

The differences in bobbin material shouldn't make a big difference. However each bobbin material has slightly different resonant properties and the material used can effect the capacitance of the pickup. So the bobbin material should have less effect on tone than the choice of baseplate material, magnet, polepiece length, polepiece style, wire gauge and number of wraps per coil.

 

[ExplorersRock]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

If anyone at Duncan is out there, can you confirm or deny the suggestion that your stock pickups are ABS?

 

[uOpt]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Mechanical effects matter. That is very easily proven by Asian pickups that have been potted to death so that nothing moves anymore and that sound bad. Good pickups are all a bit loose in some way or another, especially high end custom shop or boutique style pickups.

Hardness of the bobbins would be one of the more exotic things to blame for sound differences, and difficult to test since you can't exchange the bobbin for the same coil. But I wouldn't dismiss it.

 

[Mr. B]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

If the plastics had different electrically-insulating properties, would that not have an effect on the electrical current in the wires touching them?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Somewhere I read Duncan uses ABS on most because it survives their wax potting process better. Butyrate is vintage correct so they use it on pickups that they want to be true to original PAF specs, but apparently doesn't do so well with the modern potting process. I have not heard of bobbin material impacting sound.

 

[SJ318]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Thanks everyone.
Never would have thought there could be that many differences possible. By the accounts here, I would assume the wood spacer material could have a difference too. Pretty soon I am going to think that all materials must be produced with Beethoven playing in the Bobbin room and Mozart in the winding room, while the magnet alloys are mixed only with BB king in the background. Then Albert King paying loud while the parts are put together so the whole pickup vibrates best to the pitch of guitar electric guitar strings only.
God Almighty. You know, some people don't give a s**t, don't hear or can't tell the difference between a BB1 and JB. Unfortunately I am not one of them. I DO hear the differences.
You would think a guy like me, at 62 years of age and 20 years on the road playing LOUD, 5 nights a week, 5 hours a night, would have such ruined hearing I couldn't tell the difference any more. However, It seems my ears are even MORE sensitive now. Or I know too much now and know what to listen too. But that isn't true- when I was 21, on the road somewhere, I had to replace an old T-Top with a "new"T-Top and it sounded terrible, I had no idea of these things then. Now I know why. The magnet must have been much stronger in the new one, I remember the old one sounded "airy". I had one friend back then and we never stopped trying to figure these things out. Did it matter if the "T's" faced different directions, or faced each other? You get the Idea.
SJ

 

[AlexR]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

A lot of the aspects of making pickups matter less when it is for high gain, when it is heavily potted, or when you add processing. In fact some of the things you 'lose' can actually be things most desired for certain players, tightening up the response and increasing the attack for certain types of playing.

A lot of the very minor technicalities of the PAF have been more recent, certainly long after the staples of the Duncan lineup were designed and produced.
Needless to say, I don't think Duncan would (or should) try to produce an all-out PAF clone. From the ones I've tried, they can be quite fickle and like certain guitars better than others.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Duncan uses AFAIK, three types of humbucker bobbins: ABS, Butyrate and "Glass Fiberfill Nylon" on their Zephyr line.

ABS is used in their production types, like the '59, JB, all Trembuckers, etc.

If anyone at Duncan is out there, can you confirm or deny the suggestion that your stock pickups are ABS?

It's actually not ABS its Polycarbonate, as made public in some of the shop tour videos.

Incidentally ABS is my personal least favorite bobbin material sonically. I could find no redeeming qualities.

You are all correct the differences are extremely small. But as others have suggested the variance is partially a microphonic byproduct, and even more theoretical is the dielectric property. There's a lot of bobbin surface area where coil wires from different layers are right up against one another and the bobbin, with (hopefully) grounded pole pieces in very close proximity.

 

[SJ318]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

AlexR-
True about higher gain making minor differences less important. Seems past 9.5-10K is when they start to stop mattering.
A PAF through a Marshall still seems to matter, even with all that amp gain. But toss in a gain pedal or just a hot pickup and game over. I had to play through Jimi Hendrix's amps when I played with Eric Burden, 2 stacks, 4 cabs, and they were too loud, but I had no choice. They did not change the way my guitar sounded, just made them so loud I hated it.
True, an honor to play through the great man's amps, but just plain stupid in a sunset strip rehearsal hall.
I actually got in trouble for wearing earplugs. Eric made a big deal and threatened me if he caught me using them again.
The Marshalls did not break up much, so my guitar sounder better through my Bassman.
Truth is, all these little things I hear as my favorite amp is a Princeton Reverb on 4-5, very good sound, the pickup and wood work so good together with that amp. Now that I've found my favorite humbuckers, I never need anything else for the rest of my life, except upkeep on my gear, and to solve my middle Strat single coil problem. Which I will do.
So then butyrate is used on Antiquities and Seth's? With my A4 mags no wonder my pickups sound like good PAF's!
Mr. Falbo- how cool it must be to use "dielectric properties" in a sentence! Top Kudo's on that one.
Lt. Pepe, and the rest of you nice people who responded, great information, another reason I like this forum more than the the other ones I go to.
Thank you all very much,
SJ

 

[LtKojak]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

It's actually not ABS its Polycarbonate, as made public in some of the shop tour videos

OK, I obviously did miss that little bit of info from the videos, which, for the record, I did watch. Man, I'm ooooold!!!!!!!

I so stand corrected. :bowdown:

To have more detailed info on the subject, have a look at the biggest source of info this site has to offer, which is also the most overlooked: Seymour's Q & A.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/126150/

Look at questions #148 and #149.

HTH,

 

[dotsdad]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Double cream bobbins are loud and shrill :18:

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

I think my OP came up discussing the differences between the Antiquity humbucker and an APH-1. I have pretty good ears, but I can't hear the difference in most plastic bobbin materials outright. But I can hear the difference in a metal covered pickup with butyrate bobbins that hasn't been wax potted vs. one with polycarbonate that has: particularly in a high-gain situation.

I know we like to laugh at guys who claim they can hear the differences between certain battery types in their stomboxes or what direction their cable is plugged in; but there are guys out there with those kinds of ears. Someone I know very high-up in the Fender organization once told me that he could hear the difference between humbuckers wired with single conductor hookup cable and four-conductor; and he knew a guy who could hear the difference between a single-ply and a triple-ply pickguard.

During the development of the D-TAR digital acoustic guitar preamp Mama Bear, we were working with one of those guys. He was playing his rosewood Martin OM through an emulation of a guitar--and none of us knew what it was. The "Ears Guy" said, "I hear koa." And I watched as the engineer looked up the emulation on his clip board and sure enough, he was playing through an emulation of a koa guitar.

So while I can't hear the difference between bobbin materials or spacer materials, I believe there are folks out there who can. And even more importantly, for pretty much all of us who are reading this thread, you can hear the difference between similar pickups built with different materials, like the Antiquity and APH-1. So all of those things: bobbin material, spacer material, bottom plate material, wax potted, cover material, magnet type, wire type and gauge--all of these components are integral ingredients that determine a pickup's flavor or tone.

 

[DreX]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

It never occurred to me that bobbin material would effect microphonics. I wonder if Seymour Duncan or another pickup maker could try using a material, or structuring the bobbin in such a way that might even eliminate the need for wax potting at all, and if they succeeded, would the pickup still have desirable microphonic qualities, or would this deaden the pickup the same as if you were to drown it in wax?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

I think my OP came up discussing the differences between the Antiquity humbucker and an APH-1. I have pretty good ears, but I can't hear the difference in most plastic bobbin materials outright. But I can hear the difference in a metal covered pickup with butyrate bobbins that hasn't been wax potted vs. one with polycarbonate that has: particularly in a high-gain situation.

I know we like to laugh at guys who claim they can hear the differences between certain battery types in their stomboxes or what direction their cable is plugged in; but there are guys out there with those kinds of ears. Someone I know very high-up in the Fender organization once told me that he could hear the difference between humbuckers wired with single conductor hookup cable and four-conductor; and he knew a guy who could hear the difference between a single-ply and a triple-ply pickguard.

During the development of the D-TAR digital acoustic guitar preamp Mama Bear, we were working with one of those guys. He was playing his rosewood Martin OM through an emulation of a guitar--and none of us knew what it was. The "Ears Guy" said, "I hear koa." And I watched as the engineer looked up the emulation on his clip board and sure enough, he was playing through an emulation of a koa guitar.

So while I can't hear the difference between bobbin materials or spacer materials, I believe there are folks out there who can. And even more importantly, for pretty much all of us who are reading this thread, you can hear the difference between similar pickups built with different materials, like the Antiquity and APH-1. So all of those things: bobbin material, spacer material, bottom plate material, wax potted, cover material, magnet type, wire type and gauge--all of these components are integral ingredients that determine a pickup's flavor or tone.

Based on my experience starting out as a music fan who knew nothing of how music was made, to learning to play multiple instruments, and eventually training with a professional studio engineer from a major studio and learning how to listen for specific things, I would be willing to assert that all people already can hear these things, it's just so few have learned or been trained to recognize all the details in everything they are hearing.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

I think my OP came up discussing the differences between the Antiquity humbucker and an APH-1. I have pretty good ears, but I can't hear the difference in most plastic bobbin materials outright. But I can hear the difference in a metal covered pickup with butyrate bobbins that hasn't been wax potted vs. one with polycarbonate that has: particularly in a high-gain situation.

I know we like to laugh at guys who claim they can hear the differences between certain battery types in their stomboxes or what direction their cable is plugged in; but there are guys out there with those kinds of ears. Someone I know very high-up in the Fender organization once told me that he could hear the difference between humbuckers wired with single conductor hookup cable and four-conductor; and he knew a guy who could hear the difference between a single-ply and a triple-ply pickguard.

During the development of the D-TAR digital acoustic guitar preamp Mama Bear, we were working with one of those guys. He was playing his rosewood Martin OM through an emulation of a guitar--and none of us knew what it was. The "Ears Guy" said, "I hear koa." And I watched as the engineer looked up the emulation on his clip board and sure enough, he was playing through an emulation of a koa guitar.

So while I can't hear the difference between bobbin materials or spacer materials, I believe there are folks out there who can. And even more importantly, for pretty much all of us who are reading this thread, you can hear the difference between similar pickups built with different materials, like the Antiquity and APH-1. So all of those things: bobbin material, spacer material, bottom plate material, wax potted, cover material, magnet type, wire type and gauge--all of these components are integral ingredients that determine a pickup's flavor or tone.

And I can't even hear the difference between an acoustic and an electric guitar (or a uke).

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Pfft. I can hear the thickness of the pick the player's using, AND his shoe size :lol:

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: How does a bobbin matter in sound?

Another piece of the tone chain that's rarely discussed is the strap.