$1000 average run-of-the-mill Mexican Stratocasters how did we get to this point ?

[ErikH]

I certainly do not see that much a value in the old MIM Strats. Now, the Player Series instruments that are made in Mexico, those are a completely different animal and a much better instrument than any old MIM Standard I've played. They are consistently better in every way. $1000 better? That's pushing it. Their new/used prices fall in line with what I'd expect in that price range. There are EVH brand models made in the Mexico facility that go for $1000. Folks jump all over those without batting an eye.

Woods in the MIMs were way different than American Standards. Hardware and electronics have always been different. The only thing that they share is the shape and name on the headstock. WhoFan did a tour a good while back and posted some videos. The best wood planks were sorted and kept in the Corona, CA facility. The rest was shipped to the Mexico facility. This was before the changes to the American line and the MIM Standard line being retired for the Player Series. It may be the same still, IDK for sure.

 

[JMP/HBE]

The demand curve for Fenders is inelastic. This means that Fender can charge higher prices without lowering demand in proportion. Therefore the equilibrium price sets higher. There ya go monkey boy.

Just be glad that Fender is in monopolistic competition rather than almost a true monopoly like Hammond.

.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

If what I was told years ago is true, the only difference between the American and Mexican Strats is where they are assembled. Fender dealer told me years ago that the Mexican Strats were using the same American parts as the American Strats, they were just being assembled in Mexico vs the US.

That may have been a line of crap, if it were true, things could of changed along the way but if they are the same parts as the American Strats, there isnt much difference between the two except where the parts were assembled.

This is completely untrue.

They're not the same parts. Almost everything on the USA guitars is made in house in their factory in Corona. I've been there, I've seen it. Many of the metal parts on the MIM guitars are imported and made by Ping.

Not to mention the finishes are completely different. MIA guitars are either finished in nitro or polyurethane. MIM guitars are finished with polyester.

MIA takes the best blocks for their bodies - usually nothing less than 3 pieces. Anything else gets sent down to Mexico where they may have bodies up to 5, 6, or 7 pieces.

 

[Top-L]

I certainly do not see that much a value in the old MIM Strats. Now, the Player Series instruments that are made in Mexico, those are a completely different animal and a much better instrument than any old MIM Standard I've played. They are consistently better in every way. $1000 better? That's pushing it. Their new/used prices fall in line with what I'd expect in that price range. There are EVH brand models made in the Mexico facility that go for $1000. Folks jump all over those without batting an eye.

Woods in the MIMs were way different than American Standards. Hardware and electronics have always been different. The only thing that they share is the shape and name on the headstock. WhoFan did a tour a good while back and posted some videos. The best wood planks were sorted and kept in the Corona, CA facility. The rest was shipped to the Mexico facility. This was before the changes to the American line and the MIM Standard line being retired for the Player Series. It may be the same still, IDK for sure.

What makes a wood plank good or bad?

I used to think I had the answers, but I don't think so any more.

The thought I have been operating under is that "bad" wood hasn't been dried or prepped the same way as "good" wood. IOW, there isn't much time from tree to guitar with bad wood, but "good" wood is dried and aged.

So they may be sending the wet freshly cut planks to mexico. Which begs the question, do they dry out and improve over time, even once finished?

I have a basswood chinese superstrat that sounds better now than it did new ten years ago. Very resonant piece of guitar as good as any guitar in my small collection. Did it dry out? Or did a couple thousand hours of playing change it? How much cheaper can you get than a cheap piece of asian basswood? And it sounds great.

Like I said, I used to think I had the answers, but I don't any more.

 

[ErikH]

What makes a wood plank good or bad?

I used to think I had the answers, but I don't think so any more.

The thought I have been operating under is that "bad" wood hasn't been dried or prepped the same way as "good" wood. IOW, there isn't much time from tree to guitar with bad wood, but "good" wood is dried and aged.

So they may be sending the wet freshly cut planks to mexico. Which begs the question, do they dry out and improve over time, even once finished?

I have a basswood chinese superstrat that sounds better now than it did new ten years ago. Very resonant piece of guitar as good as any guitar in my small collection. Did it dry out? Or did a couple thousand hours of playing change it? How much cheaper can you get than a cheap piece of asian basswood? And it sounds great.

Like I said, I used to think I had the answers, but I don't any more.

They look at the wood grain, how many knots are in it (if any), knock on it and hear if it has some resonance to it or does it thud, is it straight, would the piece be served well in a 2-3 piece body or send of it off for 5-6 piece bodies. I'm sure whether it is dried out or not has something to do with it but not the end-all be-all because they still put the planks through a drying process before they are cut and CNC'd in to bodies. That doesn't guarantee that every one will be good when made in to a guitar but the chances are higher when you have a good piece of wood to work with.

 

[Top-L]

They look at the wood grain, how many knots are in it (if any), knock on it and hear if it has some resonance to it or does it thud, is it straight, would the piece be served well in a 2-3 piece body or send of it off for 5-6 piece bodies. I'm sure whether it is dried out or not has something to do with it but not the end-all be-all because they still put the planks through a drying process before they are cut and CNC'd in to bodies. That doesn't guarantee that every one will be good when made in to a guitar but the chances are higher when you have a good piece of wood to work with.

Here is the thought I keep coming back to. If the body resonance has no affect on what is picked up by the pickups, then guitar resonance is just a feel/acoustic thing which lends the guitar some mojo.

But if resonace in the body is the metric by which a guitar is judged, why aren't ALL electric guitars chambered or hollow body?

It seems anachronistic to me to build guitars in this traditional way that are at the mercy of "good" and "bad" wood, when a different construction technique would completely override wood quality.

That being said, bolt on guitars in my experience are almost always more resonant than neck through guitars, so why do we even build neck through any more?

After playing for 30ish years, my short hand for understanding guitar tonality is that the bridge has the largest impact on resonance, followed by neck joint. If you go with neck through, you get a playability advantage at the sacrifice of some "resonance".

OTH, if you believe that guitar resonance represents energy being filtered out of the strings, (which I do) then a less resonant guitar would actually have more energy in the strings, which is why boat anchor guitars that dont vibrate the same way as a bolt on strat, still have value.

I saw a video of Paul Reed Smith tapping wood blocks to discern the tonality of the wood before construction, and I think that is all cork sniffing bullshit at this point. Some of my cheapest and lightest guitars are also the most resonant. But that isn't the final word in plugged tone.

 

[Chistopher]

Here is the thought I keep coming back to. If the body resonance has no affect on what is picked up by the pickups, then guitar resonance is just a feel/acoustic thing which lends the guitar some mojo.

But if resonace in the body is the metric by which a guitar is judged, why aren't ALL electric guitars chambered or hollow body?

It seems anachronistic to me to build guitars in this traditional way that are at the mercy of "good" and "bad" wood, when a different construction technique would completely override wood quality.

That being said, bolt on guitars in my experience are almost always more resonant than neck through guitars, so why do we even build neck through any more?

After playing for 30ish years, my short hand for understanding guitar tonality is that the bridge has the largest impact on resonance, followed by neck joint. If you go with neck through, you get a playability advantage at the sacrifice of some "resonance".

OTH, if you believe that guitar resonance represents energy being filtered out of the strings, (which I do) then a less resonant guitar would actually have more energy in the strings, which is why boat anchor guitars that dont vibrate the same way as a bolt on strat, still have value.

I saw a video of Paul Reed Smith tapping wood blocks to discern the tonality of the wood before construction, and I think that is all cork sniffing bull**** at this point. Some of my cheapest and lightest guitars are also the most resonant. But that isn't the final word in plugged tone.

People say tone is in the fingers, but as I get older I find tone is in the head.

Does the nuance of a bolt-on versus neck-through survive long enough in my signal chain to make it through my Beetronix Octahive? Probably not.

Does feeling like I understand how my tone works (right or wrong in it) make me feel more confident and thus play a little better? Most of the time.

 

[Chistopher]

I have a basswood chinese superstrat that sounds better now than it did new ten years ago. Very resonant piece of guitar as good as any guitar in my small collection. Did it dry out? Or did a couple thousand hours of playing change it? How much cheaper can you get than a cheap piece of asian basswood? And it sounds great.

Is that the only part of your rig that's changed in the last 10 years?

 

[GuitarDoc]

And why is gas $4.00 a gallon? When I was in college I paid $0.19 a gallon. The cost of crude has not increased that much, and the refining process is still the same. Speaking of that, since diesel gas requires less refining than regular gas, why is it nearly a dollar more? Diesel always used to be cheaper than regular. But here's the thing, when diesel was cheaper car manufacturers were pushing diesel powered cars as more fuel economical in the long run. People bought lots of diesel cars. Now that there are so many of them on the road the gasoline suppliers can charge way more and get away with it because people will pay the price (after all, it's cheaper than buying a new car at today's prices!).

But more intriguing to me than how MIM Strats sell for $1000 these days, is how some import guitars (of very decent quality) can sell for $200! I pay more than that just for the front/face slab of raw uncut wood for my guitars (admittedly, they are all exotic hardwoods with ratings of Exhibition, Extra Fancy, AAA or better grades)! But still...$200 for a well-built completed guitar?!!!

 

[JMP/HBE]

As a US Veteran with 50 years in skilled trades including as a Union Meat Cutter [and] a Guitar player everytime i hear ye old " tonez is in da digits [fingas} and to be honest i never hear that in the 60's / 70's or 80's just tha last 15 years on guitar forums.
If tone is in your fingers chop off your fingers, gather them in a pile and try to plug them into an amp and see what tones you get.

 

[Securb]

If tone is in your fingers chop off your fingers, gather them in a pile and try to plug them into an amp and see what tones you get.

I think what people mean about this is, technique is more important to your tone than any piece of gear. There are many factors that contribute to a good or bad guitar tone. If you gave a novice player access to the best of the best pickups, effects and amps they will still sound like a novice. Freting, intonation an picking dynamics will all suffer. Whereas an experienced guitarist playing on a subpar rig with a subpar guitar will be able to overcome the shortcoming of the setup and produce something musical out of the setup.

 

[GuitarStv]

I think what people mean about this is, technique is more important to your tone than any piece of gear. There are many factors that contribute to a good or bad guitar tone. If you gave a novice player access to the best of the best pickups, effects and amps they will still sound like a novice. Freting, intonation an picking dynamics will all suffer. Whereas an experienced guitarist playing on a subpar rig with a subpar guitar will be able to overcome the shortcoming of the setup and produce something musical out of the setup.

Yep.

You can radically change the tone of a guitar just by picking. Harder sounds different than softer, closer sounds different than further from the bridge, legato rather than picking every note sounds different, fingerpicking rather than using a plectrum, choosing to slur notes by hammer on/pull off vs slide vs bending . . . and that's just one tiny aspect of playing.

 

[JMP/HBE]

Well by that theory you're saying gear doesn't matter then you should be able to race Formula 1 w/a Toyota Prius or LeMans w/a Chevy Chevette.
2 or my favorite guitarists that could not read or write music notations are SRV & George Lynch yet their tastes in guitars & gear define thier tone where its instantly recognizable to me anyway and they would not achieve the same effect w/a "hello kitty" guitar & PV backstage.
Gear does matter or at least it did. Those of us who care will be dead in another 10 to 20 years and then you'll be left with Beyonce' & Kid Rock.

 

[Top-L]

As a US Veteran with 50 years in skilled trades including as a Union Meat Cutter [and] a Guitar player everytime i hear ye old " tonez is in da digits [fingas} and to be honest i never hear that in the 60's / 70's or 80's just tha last 15 years on guitar forums.
If tone is in your fingers chop off your fingers, gather them in a pile and try to plug them into an amp and see what tones you get.

After the holocost, I want you in my tribe.

 

[Securb]

Well by that theory you're saying gear doesn't matter then you should be able to race Formula 1 w/a Toyota Prius or LeMans w/a Chevy Chevette.

Thank you for making my point. A novice driver in a Prius or a Formula One car is still likely to hit the wall. Whereas an experienced driver will be able to masterly navigate the track in any vehicle.

I did not say gear doesn't matter, did I? Go back and read. I said there are many factors that impact tone technique being one of them.

 

[GuitarStv]

Well by that theory you're saying gear doesn't matter then you should be able to race Formula 1 w/a Toyota Prius or LeMans w/a Chevy Chevette.

2 or my favorite guitarists that could not read or write music notations are SRV & George Lynch yet their tastes in guitars & gear define thier tone where its instantly recognizable to me anyway and they would not achieve the same effect w/a "hello kitty" guitar & PV backstage.
Gear does matter or at least it did. Those of us who care will be dead in another 10 to 20 years and then you'll be left with Beyonce' & Kid Rock.

You bring up a good point here. Gear matters when it's total shit. SRV wouldn't sound sound the same playing a broom strung with one string.

But SRV and Lynch would very likely sound just like themselves playing pretty much any properly set up guitar into any amp that isn't crap. Look at Paul Gilbert. That dude always sounds like Paul Gilbert . . . whether he's playing upright bass, ukulele, or custom guitar.

 

[Securb]

2 or my favorite guitarists that could not read or write music notations are SRV & George Lynch yet their tastes in guitars & gear define thier tone where its instantly recognizable

Boston has one of the most recognized guitar sounds in modern music. Def Lepard recorded the album "Hysteria" with Rockmans, and ZZ Top used them on Afterburner. At no point when hearing a track from those albums does the listener think "Hey that is Boston"

 

[JMP/HBE]

Boston has one of the most recognized guitar sounds in modern music. Def Lepard recorded the album "Hysteria" with Rockmans, and ZZ Top used them on Afterburner. At no point when hearing a track from those albums does the listener think "Hey that is Boston"

 

[JMP/HBE]

Rockman tones always sound like Rockman tones to me.

 

[Securb]

Rockman tones always sound like Rockman tones to me.

So you are saying the first time you heard Pour Some Sugar On Me, you thought it was Tom Scholz?