A cab size discussion...

Actually, I take that back. I think they only have variations on two core models, the Quick Rod (the hot-rodded 800 one) and the Nitro (the scoopy/bassy/gainy amp KSE were using). Most of the other models derive from those, making them single/dual channel, different wattages, etc.

All solid boutique-quality amps with good beefy transformers and components. I wouldn't mind owning any of the models myself. They always came across like more of a hot-rod Marshall design that I'd dig (aggressive!) than Friedman (smooth and polite).

I didn't always consider myself an EL34 kind of guy. I found the then new DSL 2000s really weak when I tried them in Guitar Center around 2000. Then around when I turned 30 or so I found I started liking a boosted Marshall sound more than a Diezel or Engl kind of sound. The boost was giving the Marshalls the gain saturation they needed to sound like a more modern amp.

I found 5150s to be an acquired taste, like when you go past the 7 sweet spot or so on a Marshall and it starts sounding oversaturated and fizzy.

Mostly the Brit voicing is for the mix. Mesas and such sounded good by themselves--almost like the guitar, bass, and kick in one chug--but I found I'd have to roll off a lot of low end or lose the bass and kick in the guitar tone.

I'd always wanted one of those Mick Thomson sort of Riveras with maybe some Marshall tone but really complex front end tone shaping controls--like a Road King. But that was high quality, boutique stuff and I had moved on from tubes by then.
 
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I didn't always consider myself an EL34 kind of guy. I found the then new DSL 2000s really weak when I tried them in Guitar Center around 2000. Then around when I turned 30 or so I found I started liking a boosted Marshall sound more than a Diezel or Engl kind of sound. The boost was giving the Marshalls the gain saturation they needed to sound like a more modern amp.

I found 5150s to be an acquired taste, like when you go past the 7 sweet spot or so on a Marshall and it starts sounding oversaturated and fizzy.

Mostly the Brit voicing is for the mix. Mesas and such sounded good by themselves--almost like the guitar, bass, and kick in one chug--but I found I'd have to roll off a lot of low end or lose the bass and kick in the guitar tone.

I'd always wanted one of those Mick Thomson sort of Riveras with maybe some Marshall tone but really complex front end tone shaping controls--like a Road King. But that was high quality, boutique stuff and I had moved on from tubes by then.
Riveras have got a HUGE low-end. Bigger even than Rectos.

I don't like Marshalls in general. At least not the ones I've tried (DSL, 900, and 800 briefly). The frequencies their tonestack controls work at are super alien to me. The bass freq is too high, the mid knob is weird where if you lower them, you loose the bite, and if you raise them, everything sounds super cloudy and stuffy. That's not to say they're bad, but they're certainly not how I'm used to. I would like to try the JVM, though.

I did like the Marshall Mode Four, but at the same time, it's far from being my dream amp either. It's kinda like the anti-Marshall Marshall, LOL.

I don't find Rectos hard to fit in a mix. Rectos must be the most mix-friendly scoopy amps I've ever known. Just boost them, use high-output lean-sounding pickups, keep the bass knob around 11:30-ish, and that's it. They're on countless records as evidence of how mix-friendly they are.

Then again, keep in mind when I started really getting into tone and tweaking, I got a POD 2.0 and the first model I reached for was the Recto model. So that's "home" for me. I can think of a lot more records that I like the tone of where the Recto makes an appearance than a Marshall. Matter of fact, the only Marshall tones that come to mind right now that I like are some of the later Arch Enemy sounds and Death.
 
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Riveras have got a HUGE low-end. Bigger even than Rectos.

I don't like Marshalls in general. At least not the ones I've tried (DSL, 900, and 800 briefly). The frequencies their tonestack controls work at are super alien to me. The bass freq is too high, the mid knob is weird. That's not to say they're bad, but they're certainly not how I'm used to. I would like to try the JVM, though.

I did like the Marshall Mode Four, but at the same time, it's far from being my dream amp either. It's kinda like the anti-Marshall Marshall, LOL.

I don't find Rectos hard to fit in a mix. Rectos must be the most mix-friendly scoopy amps I've ever known. Just boost them, use high-outpu lean-sounding pickups, keep the bass knob around 11:30-ish, and that's it. They're on countless records as evidence of how mix-friendly they are.

I think for me the mid scooping is an issue and the endless debates about where "mids" actually are. Low mids around 400 hz always get scooped, whether it's toms or guitars.

But there are a lot of "mid scooped" amps and they all sound drastically different. Randalls are considered high gain scooped amps, but they do not sound like Rectos. And as I've gotten older, I've started to prefer Marks blended with Rectos to offset that mid scoop.

It might be like Pantera vs. Godsmack. Both mid scooped sounds. But drastically different. Randalls sound way more saturated and bright, but Mesas have more of a warm tube sound.

For me, if the scoop isn't 1) in the right place, 2) contoured correctly via properly adjusted Q, and 3) at the right amount of reduction, it disappears. It sounds fine on its own but bad in a mix, or sounds great in a mix but kind of weak on its own (a struggle we all deal with because we have to decide what's going to get the listener's main attention in the mix).

Plus, maybe there's a little bit of arrogance about not wanting to be yet another EMG/Recto kid in his 40s pumping out metalcore riffs. It's like, move on, ffs.
 
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My good friend who did the Poisonwood stuff I posted that I helped out on via Recabinet would mix Amplitube 4 5150s and Mesas, blend to taste. This was 2010-ish. Date is important with amp software, lol. Because a lot of the boutique chugga chugga like Bogners and Engls have really terrible software emulations, I find. Almost as tough as finding a good Plexi emulation because those mids are so complex and saturated, yet the clarity has to come through.
 
I think for me the mid scooping is an issue and the endless debates about where "mids" actually are. Low mids around 400 hz always get scooped, whether it's toms or guitars.
Exactly! And the mid knob is centered lowered on Rectos and 5150's than on Marshalls. Of course, amp tonestacks are super wide, rudimentary, and all the knobs interact with each other making things worse, but roughly and overgeneralizig, a Recto's or a 5150's mid knobs scoop the "bad" mids and leave the "good" mids alone.
 
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Also, man, how many Dark Tranquillity albums have I heard and it sounds like they've literally recorded everything with the same settings they used on Damage Done. I know they've swapped out a bunch of gear going from Studio Fredman and Nordstrom to Rogue Studios and Brandstrom, but the tone is pretty much consistently the same. Maybe We are the Void saw a bit of a dip in quality, but it's always sounded very consistent since 2002 or so.
 
Plus, maybe there's a little bit of arrogance about not wanting to be yet another EMG/Recto kid in his 40s pumping out metalcore riffs. It's like, move on, ffs.
Rectos and 5150's do a whole lot more than Metalcore.

When I think 5150, I think Carcass, personally. Or Colony/Clayman.

When I think Recto doing Metal, I think Cannibal Corpse... as well as many others, of course. Or Nevermore.
 
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Exactly! And 400-600 Hz is around where the "mid" knob is centered on Rectos and 5150's. Of course, amp tonestacks are super wide, rudimentary, and all the knobs interact with each other making things worse, but roughly and overgeneralizig, a Recto's or a 5150's mid knobs scoop the "bad" mids and leave the "good" mids alone.

Something I think Rectos need to have out of the box is something my late 90s Randall Cyclone (just under the original Warhead) has--a parametric mid control, traditional 3 band with presence, and a graphic mid control. Would probably help to have a Q there too but I'm not sure that's practical on amps since their pots have to be set at certain values.

You can set *where* you want those mids to be. Yet in practice I found the knobs would make a dramatic difference in a few key regions, then they wouldn't really do anything but make the amp make the same tone, but louder.

The manual's here if you're curious. I have it paired to my 2x15" Randall cab.

www.randallamplifiers.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2020/02/Cyclone-Manual.pdf
 
Something I think Rectos need to have out of the box is something my late 90s Randall Cyclone (just under the original Warhead) has--a parametric mid control, traditional 3 band with presence, and a graphic mid control. Would probably help to have a Q there too but I'm not sure that's practical on amps since their pots have to be set at certain values.

You can set *where* you want those mids to be. Yet in practice I found the knobs would make a dramatic difference in a few key regions, then they wouldn't really do anything but make the amp make the same tone, but louder.

The manual's here if you're curious. I have it paired to my 2x15" Randall cab.

www.randallamplifiers.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2020/02/Cyclone-Manual.pdf
Yeah, I went a bit too specific on the frequencies. I can't for the life of me find where I read 400-600 is where their mid knobs is centered. One thing I know for sure, though, it it is lower than on Marshalls.

Kranks do that to an extent as well, except the sweep knob moves the frequencies of ALL the knobs.

I love Kranks, but 5150's are way easier to dial in because of that. I'd rather have a well-thought-out stratightforward tone stack than a highly tweakable one, personally. I would go out and say that's part of the reason 5150's are so popular. They sound good, yes, but they're also really easy and intuitive to tweak.
 
Also, man, how many Dark Tranquillity albums have I heard and it sounds like they've literally recorded everything with the same settings they used on Damage Done. I know they've swapped out a bunch of gear going from Studio Fredman and Nordstrom to Rogue Studios and Brandstrom, but the tone is pretty much consistently the same. Maybe We are the Void saw a bit of a dip in quality, but it's always sounded very consistent since 2002 or so.

You know what, I haven't really thought about it, but you're totally right, LOL.

I personally really enjoy Dark Tranquillity. But I don't think they'll ever be my favorite band. At least not with that they play these days. They're getting formulaic, you're totally right. But at the same time, it's a formula that I really enjoy.

At least they don't sound like 30 Secons to Mars like In Flames did for a few records, LOL.
 
Yeah, I went a bit too specific on the frequencies. I can't for the life of me find where I read 400-600 is where their mid knobs is centered. One thing I know for sure, though, it it is lower than on Marshalls.

Kranks do that to an extent as well, except the sweep knob moves the frequencies of ALL the knobs.

I love Kranks, but 5150's are way easier to dial in because of that. I'd rather have a well-thought-out stratightforward tone stack than a highly tweakable one, personally. I would go out and say that's part of the reason 5150's are so popular. They sound good, yes, but they're also really easy and intuitive to tweak.

The down side to set tone stacks I think is that's going to change a bit depending upon tuning and pickups.

Generally the more knobs I see on the front of it the more I feel compelled to own it. :) But I know it will be a PITA to get dialed in.
 
You know what, I haven't really thought about it, but you're totally right, LOL.

I personally really enjoy Dark Tranquillity. But I don't think they'll ever be my favorite band. At least not with that they play these days. They're getting formulaic, you're totally right. But at the same time, it's a formula that I really enjoy.

At least they don't sound like 30 Secons to Mars like In Flames did for a few records, LOL.

Sometimes I want to pull Bjorn aside.

"Look, you need to hang around Anders...a little less. You know, grow your now silvery mane back out like it's 2000, and just rediscover yourself a little. Maybe get the flared Cliff Burton pants from Colony out of storage. Maybe play an ESP? It's getting to where I don't even know you guys--especially your bass players and drummers--anymore."
 
Sometimes I want to pull Bjorn aside.

"Look, you need to hang around Anders...a little less. You know, grow your now silvery mane back out like it's 2000, and just rediscover yourself a little. Maybe get the flared Cliff Burton pants from Colony out of storage. Maybe play an ESP? It's getting to where I don't even know you guys--especially your bass players and drummers--anymore."
In Flames is a lost cause at this point.

I listen to them and I'll almost say the last record was a guilty pleasure of mine. It's not like I had it on repeat or anything, but I didn't mind it when I heard it. But it's almost like listening to a different band. To me, these days, they're more of a band that I casually enjoy that the iconic pioneers they were in the 90's. It's like two different bands altogether, one far better than the other.

I liked Halo, personally. I'm not going to say they sound like 90's In Flames, but to me, it gives me an idea of what In Flames would sound like if they kept evolving along the same path they started out at. It's not like Halo is groundbreaking avantgarde propositional music, but it's solid Melodic Death from the people that know how to write good Melodic Death through and through.
 
In Flames is a lost cause at this point.

I listen to them and I'll almost say the last record was a guilty pleasure of mine. It's not like I had it on repeat or anything, but I didn't mind it when I heard it. But it's almost like listening to a different band. To me, these days, they're more of a band that I casually enjoy that the iconic pioneers they were in the 90's. It's like two different bands altogether, one far better than the other.

I liked Halo, personally. I'm not going to say they sound like 90's In Flames, but to me, it gives me an idea of what In Flames would sound like if they kept evolving along the same path they started out at. It's not like Halo is groundbreaking avantgarde propositional music, but it's solid Melodic Death from the people that know how to write good Melodic Death through and through.

Halo is too much like Dark Tranquillity for me. And a lot of it is because Jesper is lazy now and won't play JR and Whoracle style melodies/solos himself anymore. Engelin does all the heavy lifting. And even then live the harmonized melodies are on backing tracks and the riffs are live, which I think is backwards to how it should be. Or just drop some parts for the live experience a la earlier Iron Maiden.

The most important point--IF to Reroute and especially to Colony was written with the RECORDED song and album in mind. Later material favored LIVE product.

They had too many parts on the albums for a live performance. As they subtracted live parts, they had to depend more on the vocal. This made the songs less interesting for those interested in a traditional death metal experience. They replaced those fans and more with emo kids, one generation of which doesn't remember anything pre-Reroute, and another generation of which doesn't remember anything pre-Playground. Foregone begins yet another new group of fans.
 
Yep. The amount of audio bull**** that he cuts through in those videos is astounding.

Although his videos are interesting, they often have rather inaccurate conclusions. For example when he builds a telecaster running from one bench to another, he was claiming the wood didn't matter.

What he'd actually done is made a guitar out of two massive benches :-)

Edit-Just realized I'd missed this already covered earlier in the thread...
 
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Halo is too much like Dark Tranquillity for me. And a lot of it is because Jesper is lazy now and won't play JR and Whoracle style melodies/solos himself anymore. Engelin does all the heavy lifting. And even then live the harmonized melodies are on backing tracks and the riffs are live, which I think is backwards to how it should be. Or just drop some parts for the live experience a la earlier Iron Maiden.

The most important point--IF to Reroute and especially to Colony was written with the RECORDED song and album in mind. Later material favored LIVE product.

They had too many parts on the albums for a live performance. As they subtracted live parts, they had to depend more on the vocal. This made the songs less interesting for those interested in a traditional death metal experience. They replaced those fans and more with emo kids, one generation of which doesn't remember anything pre-Reroute, and another generation of which doesn't remember anything pre-Playground. Foregone begins yet another new group of fans.
I think we discussed that before. Halo sounds nothing like DT to me other than vocals. Well, at least as far apart as two bands from the same place that more or less play the same style of music can get. But we both hear things differently, so I'm not saying you're wrong.

Personally, out of the OG Gothernburg bands, In Flames always came off to me as the least Death-y. Not to say they were bad or anything. I like them. I personally like old In Flames better than even old Dark Tranquillity. But I always thought In Flames were more upbeat. At the Gates are my favorite. Although I discovered and fell in love with In Flames and Dark Tranquillity way before than At the Gates.

To me, apex In Flames is Whoracle and Jester. But I think Colony was the last album where they still sounded like themselves. You could tell they were starting to toy with the idea of going more mainstream, though. Clayman, to me, was their Black Album. Both Colony and Clayman are absolute perfection as far as production goes, though.
 
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I think we discussed that before. Halo sounds nothing like DT to me other than vocals. Well, at least as far apart as two bands from the same place that more or less play the same style of music can get. But we both hear things differently, so I'm not saying you're wrong.

Personally, out of the OG Gothernburg bands, In Flames always came off to me as the least Death-y. Not to say they were bad or anything. I like them. I personally like old In Flames better than even old Dark Tranquillity. But I always thought In Flames were more upbeat. At the Gates are my favorite. Although I discovered and fell in love with In Flames and Dark Tranquillity way before than At the Gates.

To me, apex In Flames is Whoracle and Jester. But I think Colony was the last album where they still sounded like themselves. You could tell they were starting to toy with the idea of going more mainstream, though. Clayman, to me, was their Black Album. Both Colony and Clayman are absolute perfection as far as production goes, though.

For me what determines Halo sounding like DT is how restrained the guitars are for the sake of building a dark, minimalistic ambience.

Back in the day IF had melodies and full blown solos (on JR performed by DT's Fredrick Johansson I think). Halo still sounds more restrained to me, like they don't want to do solos but just big melodies. Which is nonsense because Niclas was doing them in Gardenian. "Self-proclaimed Messiah" has like a one minute intro solo. Niclas is a better guitarist than Bjorn is IMO, but spent years playing uninteresting riffs in mediocre songs--which is why I think Niclas left IF. Lack of creative control.

But after Jesper left Bjorn kind of blew up on the solos and wah. Each song had a real solo, not just an extended melody/bridge that covered where a solo would have been. But they stopped doing layered stuff like Zombie Inc. because Bjorn was writing everything and whoever the other guitarist of the week was was getting the stripped down parts. They should have let Niclas write more for a fuller two guitar experience and not just Bjorn and some guy doing rhythm. They're wasting Broderick now doing that but they won't let him do anything because Bjorn and whoever else is next won't be able to play it.

Neither DT nor IF nor ATG were Arch Enemy or Soilwork in the technical department, but with Halo I still hear restrained melodies trying to be carried by the vocal so they don't have to do anything more complicated than the bare minimum.

If Halo had OG IF riffs like "Upon an Oaken Throne," "Dead Eternity," or "December Flower," I'd say they were back. Even "Episode 666," which is kind of a lazier, less busy song. Even "Wayfarer" with its crazy synthesizer solo and thrash style riffs. But the things they are playing are just not as complex or interesting as they were in the 90s and early 00s.

That said, I want to see Halo improve, especially as DT seems to stagnate.

Long story short--they're not going to be at their best unless Jesper can get/stay clean, consistently tour, and play like he did in the 90s, which, according to Euge Valovirta, Jesper isn't 100% interested in because he's bored of their old style of melodic death metal.
 
For me what determines Halo sounding like DT is how restrained the guitars are for the sake of building a dark, minimalistic ambience.
That's the thing. For me, Halo is not dark at all. It's pretty upbeat and reminds me a lot of Dialogue with the Stars or Man Made God.


That doesn't sound dark to me whatsoever.

Neither DT nor IF nor ATG were Arch Enemy or Soilwork in the technical department, but with Halo I still hear restrained melodies trying to be carried by the vocal so they don't have to do anything more complicated than the bare minimum.​
​Agreed, but they don't have to be technical to be good. Personally, the best parts from Arch Enemy for me are not the shreddy solos, but the catchy melodies that soon morph into heavier riffs. That is the esscence of the Gothenburg sound for me. When I think shreddy Melodeath, I think more COB, Norther, Kalmah, or Wintersun and the Finns.

ATG's solos are nothing to write home about technically, I agree... But Anders is such an underrated rhythm player. The guy is a downpicking machine. I do like his taste in melodies for solos, though. I think he doesn't just throw random shit for the sake of throwing a solo in there like Amon Amarth, LOL.

But at the same time, Gothenburg Melodic Death has never been about technical prowess, but rather, about the constant change from heavy to catchy in the songs. To me, anyways.
 
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Riveras have got a HUGE low-end. Bigger even than Rectos.

I don't like Marshalls in general. At least not the ones I've tried (DSL, 900, and 800 briefly). The frequencies their tonestack controls work at are super alien to me. The bass freq is too high, the mid knob is weird where if you lower them, you loose the bite, and if you raise them, everything sounds super cloudy and stuffy. That's not to say they're bad, but they're certainly not how I'm used to. I would like to try the JVM, though.

I did like the Marshall Mode Four, but at the same time, it's far from being my dream amp either. It's kinda like the anti-Marshall Marshall, LOL.

I don't find Rectos hard to fit in a mix. Rectos must be the most mix-friendly scoopy amps I've ever known. Just boost them, use high-output lean-sounding pickups, keep the bass knob around 11:30-ish, and that's it. They're on countless records as evidence of how mix-friendly they are.

Then again, keep in mind when I started really getting into tone and tweaking, I got a POD 2.0 and the first model I reached for was the Recto model. So that's "home" for me. I can think of a lot more records that I like the tone of where the Recto makes an appearance than a Marshall. Matter of fact, the only Marshall tones that come to mind right now that I like are some of the later Arch Enemy sounds and Death.
Damn straight. Rectos are both huge sounding and very mix friendly. The chugs are incredibly meaty even after the very slight tweaks to make it fit perfectly in a dense mix. I find there’s only so much low end that guitar can have before it stops being useful. Some people complain that my guitar demos “could use more low end” because they seem to hear the guitar as the guitar and the bass and don’t understand that my ear hears how the guitar ought to sound in the mix and I don’t compensate for playing in isolation by cranking the low end.
 
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