Amp choice - pointers please

[sombersoul]

For over a year I have been considering changing my setup. This obviously shows it's not just GAS. My band has turned into a direction that requires different sounds. So far, I've been playing a Peavey 6505. The thing is: We're not really a metal band. We do have a handful of really heavy songs, and here the Peavey obviously shines. But then we also have just as many songs which can be considered alternative and demand good cleans and different kinds of distortion. Naturally, the Peavey 6505 doesn't really provide (good) cleans, and it's also an amp that, in my opinion, doesn't respond well to overdrive pedals at all. I've been using an EHX Big Muff for some songs, but the sound is acceptable at best, and most of the time is just unsatisfying. Most other stompboxes sound harsh and bodiless through the Peavey.

My ideal amp would be one with fenderlike cleans, a classic crunch channel and an Peavey-like distortion. Naturally, such an amp probably doesn't exist.

So, I'm looking for alternatives. I've grown very fond of the kind of distortion so-called classic (or rock) amps produce: warm, full-bodied, natural sounding, harmonic overdrive. I've been thinking that perhaps I should get an amp with an outstanding clean channel and good overdrive channel that takes distortion pedals really well, so I can also produce brutality for some of our songs.

I have this little Peavey Nano Valve amp in my bedroom, and I love the sounds I'm getting, both clean and overdriven. And it responds well to distortion pedals, too. Of course, I'm not thinking about a low-wattage class A amp for my main rig, but this gave me the idea of trying out the classic amp + stompboxes way.

Naturally, there is an overwhelming choice of amps. I've spent the last few months researching and have come up with the following classic-oriented heads, which according to videos on YouTube and sound files on the net would fit my bill in that they have a good or even outstanding clean channel and also produce the kind of overdrive I described above. They apparently also take pedals in front well.

Classic 30
Koch Twintone
Orange Rockerverb
Bogner Shiva

I know that these amps range from 500 to well over 2500 Euros, but I'm prepared to spend more, if I'm convinced that the amp in question might be the way to go.

Unfortunately, I have no experience with any of these models except the numerous videos on YouTube and user soundfiles I found on the Internet. The only good music store in my vicinity doesn't have any of these on display.

The Peavey Classic 30 certainly is the most affordable amp. It sounds good to me from what I've heard. It might be a good way to test whether I really want to do the classic amp + stompboxes thing without spending too much money. However, I'm a bit concerned that 30 watts may not be enough headroom for the cleans.

The Koch Twintone seems to get the best of reviews, and it's always mentioned that the cleans are outstanding. The head itself is apparently often compared to the Bogner Shiva (i.e. being a more affordable version of it). Is 50 watts already enough for clean headroom at rehearsal volume? Not sure. Regarding the features, it certainly excels over the Peavey Classic 30. The only reservation I have is the fact that it only has an 8 or 4 ohm output (conditioned by the built-in powersoak). My current 4x12 cab, for instance, only has a 16 ohm input. But that's not a problem, since I'm changing to a 2x12 cab anyway. Still, for gigging (and I mean taking the head and using the venue's backline), a little more ohmage flexibility would be nice.

Now, the Orange Rockeverb is probably last on my list, but I guess I should still consider it. It seems to have much gain on tap, maybe even enough so that I won't need a metal distortion, not sure. I wonder if I would like the "natural" clean channel. As written above, I'm looking for something round and fenderlike.

What I've been reading about the Bogner Shivas has for the most part convinced me. I found excellent videos on YouTube, and it's often said that it has the best clean channel in its field. A good basis for pedals, too, I guess. The overdrive also sounds very full and meaty, lots of low-mids. That's what I like. For high-gain I could easily use my EHX Metal Muff, I suppose. There have been some problems with the F/X loop, but it seems that this has been fixed with more recent versions. Anyway, this amp would require serious saving up on my part, but it's possible. If it's really such a great amp, I think I would go ahead and get it. I don't want any compromises anymore (been there, done that).

Maybe there are amps I haven't even considered yet?

 

[sombersoul]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

Now, of course I've also been researching amps that would give me a great clean channel as well as a brutal high-gain channel. Basically, the two I have come up with are

Koch Powertone II
Diezel Herbert

The Powertone II looks great in theory. Plenty of features, 3-channel-structure, according to many users a great clean channel. But I'm a bit worried about the overdrive, since I've been reading so many times that it's an instant love or hate reaction. There is not much to be found on the Internet, just a couple of sound files, and obviously the ones from the homepage, which, in my opinion, are terrible! So, either people totally love this amp or hate the distortion for being too trebly, fizzy, mid-deprived, or just strange. I hesitate to give this amp a try because of that. I might be one to love it or to hate it.

The Diezel Herbert is often named as the high-gainer with the best clean channel. Yes, the videos I've seen are convincing. The high-gain side is obviously also good. I'm very tempted by this head. But I wonder if I wouldn't prefer the classic kind of distortion the Shiva or similar amps produce.

Well, questions over questions.
If any of you have experience with the aforementioned amps or even some other models, I would be more than happy to hear some opinions and possibly get some pointers.

In a nutshell: I would like fenderish cleans, round and warm, which stay reasonably clean at rehearsal volume. The clean channel should also accept stompboxes like the Big Muff, the Metal Muff, or Maxon 808 well. The overdrive channel should sound rich and harmonic, mid growl (low-mids even) preferred. If the amp can do both, clean and high-gain, all the better. If not, then, as I said, it should take pedals up front exceptionally well.

So, am I on the right track for what I want for my band and my sound? Or am I doing it all wrong?

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

My ideal amp would be one with fenderlike cleans, a classic crunch channel and an Peavey-like distortion. Naturally, such an amp probably doesn't exist.

Maybe there are amps I haven't even considered yet?

Mmmm . . . .

. . . so you want Fender cleans, classic crunch, and Peavey (which Peavey ? Peavey Classic 50 ?) Distortion ?

If the Answer ir Peavey 50 Distortion, then look no further than Fender's very own Super Sonic.
Do a youtube search, these amps are very under rated !

IF, on the other hand, you want a harder Peavey distortion, you might wanna look into a Mesa Boogie Lone Star or even a Stiletto (...Stiletto for a more modern Marshall-like tone).
It is my understanding that the Mesa Roadster can do everything you want too :

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Rectifier_Series/roadster/roadster.html


Hope this helps !
James

 

[JohnnyGuitar]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

I think the Peavey line has a few amps for a fair price with 3 channels. I don't know how you would feel changing from a 6505 to a Classic 30... can't even make a comparison between them. I own a Classic 20 and it excepts my Big Muff badly actually... never tried it with bigger brother though.

What about the Rivera Clubster 45? two channels with full EQ, enough headroom for cleans, a good sounding high gain boost... and fairly priced.

If you really want to stick with the Big Muff BTW, the only amps I love it with are Fenders - Hot Rods, Twin Reverbs, whatever...

 

[sombersoul]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

Just for clarification: When I said Peavey distortion, I meant this as a synonym for high-gain distortion, i.e. brutals. But it doesn't HAVE to be like that.

I haven't considered any Mesa amps so far, since I'm not a big fan, at least not of the Rectifier series. I realize, of course, that the Roadster, Roadking etc. offer something else. However, the Roadster in particular has way too many knobs for me. I like to keep things simple.

I also would prefer a head, so that rules out Fenders, I guess?

But I'm going to look into the suggested amps, no doubt.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

Peavey Classic 30
Crate V33
Mesa Lone Star Special

While I would love to have a Mesa Lonestar Special the Crate and Peavey can be had without breaking the bank and take pedals well. When I was gigging on my Crate V32 I ran a TS9 into the clean channel for pushed tones and into the distortion channel for the nastier business. No problems covering AIC and harder stuff that way and the clean and pushed tones are very nice. With the Crate V32s foot switchable boost I ended up with 6 different tones and they were all very good.

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

I also would prefer a head, so that rules out Fenders, I guess?

.

Ermmmm, Fender Super Sonic :


http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?base_pid=480875&cpd=0OEY&doc_id=99371&index=0

Not alot of knobs at all - but a lot of diff tones !!!

Vibrolux / Bassman / Hi-Gian voicings :cool2:

http://fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2160100000


What is good enough for Jeff Beck is good enough for me !



James

 

[PVFan]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

If you can afford an Ecstasy or the Herbert you mentioned, do one of those and I'm sure you'll be very happy.

Or A/B the 6505 with a used Fender Twin or something like that and run your pedals through that.

I have the 6505+, and the separate EQ/Presence/Resonance for clean/crunch allows for dialing in better cleans and crunch without affecting the heavy channel than with the non+ version.

 

[sombersoul]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

Ermmmm, Fender Super Sonic :

Oh, I didn't know about that model! The one store I use for looking up amps doesn't have it! But I checked another big store and yes, they got it. It's not even such an expensive head. I have to check out YouTube and other places to see if the sound comes close to what I want. But I definitely got more options now, thanks! I'll report back.

Peavey Classic 30
Crate V33
Mesa Lone Star Special

Except for the Peavey Classic 30, I don't know anything about these amps. Never even heard of the Crate V33 before. But I'm going to look into them. My list is growing.

If you can afford an Ecstasy or the Herbert you mentioned, do one of those and I'm sure you'll be very happy.

Or A/B the 6505 with a used Fender Twin or something like that and run your pedals through that.

I have the 6505+, and the separate EQ/Presence/Resonance for clean/crunch allows for dialing in better cleans and crunch without affecting the heavy channel than with the non+ version.

Actually, I was more thinking about the Bogner Shiva. It seems it excels over the Ecstasy in the clean department, and many people also say the gain channel is beefier. Of course, the Ecstasy has more gain to begin with. But it's also more expensive.

I have considered A/B'ing, but that's not the way I want to go. Too much equipment to carry around.

I had the 6505+, too, but I didn't care for its clean channel, which I found ear-piercing. I honestly prefer the 6505 cleans, if you can call them that. Maybe I'm weird.


Well, a couple of new options...I'm especially curious about the Fender Prosonic. The description reads nicely anyway.

Any more opinions on the Bogner Shiva, the Herbert or even the Koch amps perhaps? I'm kind of ruling out the Peavey Classic 30 (mainly due to the low wattage).

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

Have you tried a Marshall JVM? I wouldn't say the cleans on it are super duper Fenderish, but they're still pretty good. The crunch channel is great, and you can also go to full blown out distortion without the need for a pedal on the other two overdrive channels. It has 4 channels and 3 different modes on each channel. It really is like having 12 amps in one for the most part.

 

[PVFan]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

I had the 6505+, too, but I didn't care for its clean channel, which I found ear-piercing. I honestly prefer the 6505 cleans, if you can call them that. Maybe I'm weird.

eh, nobody likes 'em. I think it's cool that I am the Lone Ranger on this. I've never found them "ear-piercing" though, good gosh. I am coming from a HUMBUCKER standpoint here, so that may explain why me and everyone else disagree on the 5150-6505 cleans issue so much. I just back off the pre and way off the mids (the amp has plenty of mids even dialed like this) and get the post up there. I get some pretty cozy, playable cleans that suit me well. With a touch of modulation and delay, even better; I'm quite happy with them. I hit the strings hard and get the smooth breakup, otherwise the arpeggios are pretty to me, and very clean, ringy, not sterile. I really do like them, not just settling for them. Tell the truth, with HUMBUCKERS, I've had a much harder time dialing in cleans I liked that were playable to me on the boutique amps, with all the headroom and boominess. But, I've never owned boutiques and single-coils at the same time, which is probably how most people go about their cleans - they use single coils.

I am not familiar with half the amps mentioned, but any Bogner clean would more than suffice, I am sure.

Go try them all!

 

[sombersoul]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

Reporting back:

I listened to the sound samples on the Fender homepage for the Super Sonic amp, and I also looked up some videos on YouTube. Well, I'm not convinced that this is the amp for me. This is not to say that it's bad at all! But I expected something different. I didn't warm to the clean and drive channel(s). But I also know that samples from official homepages are often (surprisingly) bad. Anyway, the Fender is not very high on my list.

I remember testing the Mesa Boogie Roadster combo some weeks ago. My other guitarist played some riffs, and we liked the clean channel on it. But this is one monster of an amp! So many knobs and potis! I'm not sure I would want that. Besides, I've never been a big fan of the Rectifier distortion to begin with, although the Roadster seems to do so much more than that. Well, I haven't completely dismissed this amp.

The Marshall JVM might be more interesting, especially because of the pricing, but again, it seems to be more than I actually need. 12 (4) channels? Too much. But it's definitely still on the list. I saw one at the music store, so I probably should try it out.

As it stands now, I'm torn between the Diezel Herbert, the Bogner Shiva or one of the Koch Amps, and additionally perhaps the Marshall or the Boogie. It seems that I'm onto the pricier amps.

eh, nobody likes 'em. I think it's cool that I am the Lone Ranger on this.

That's cool, though! The thing is: I originally got the 6505+ exactly because I was expecting better cleans. But I never got anything that I liked out of this amp. Maybe it' also the fault of the cab. I was playing through a 5150 cab for a long time, and it definitely emphasizes the piercing top end. Then I heard the cleans from the other guitarist's 6505 (non-plus), and they sounded darker and fuller. I also liked the distortion of the original head better. I switched.

I have to say that I don't think the cleans on the 6505 are super-terrible. They are usable at best, though. And while they usually sound ok at the rehearsal, they never sound good in recordings or live. I find they lack expression and harmonic richness. I think they're fine if you play heavey music with some clean passages here and there. But since my band is moving into a more alternative/ambient/indie direction, I really would appreciate better cleans.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

You owe it to yourself to try out the Mesa Stiletto and Lonestar, as well as the Roadster. I love my Road King... Does it out Fender a Fender or out Marshall a Marshall? No, but Unless you have all 3, it's the next best option.

Also, even though the Roadster is based off the Recto, you don't have to dial it in to sound like Creed or Korn...

 

[PVFan]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

I also liked the distortion of the original head better. I switched.

They have the same distortion, but different tapers to some of the pots, most noticeably on ch.2 pre gain and low. To me, pre at 5 on the non-plus = pre at 8 on the plus. They dedicated an additional preamp tube to ch.1 on the plus, but I don't think that design change affected or subtracted distortion from ch.2. The taper on the gain control is the difference you heard.

You are so correct about speaker cabs making a huge difference.

There is a store I don't frequent that often in my area that started carrying Herberts. I don't go within 5 miles of the place's gravity pull. The last thing I need is $4000 worth of GAS.

 

[sombersoul]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

They have the same distortion, but different tapers to some of the pots, most noticeably on ch.2 pre gain and low. To me, pre at 5 on the non-plus = pre at 8 on the plus. They dedicated an additional preamp tube to ch.1 on the plus, but I don't think that design change affected or subtracted distortion from ch.2. The taper on the gain control is the difference you heard.

In fact, the distortion of the 6505+ is a bit different after all. It's tighter and brighter. Like the 6505 with a boost pedal. Look at www.fjamods.com. They even offer a lead channel restoration for the 6505+. I tried both heads, the plus and the non-plus through the same cab, side by side, and yes, I can definitely hear the difference. As I said, the 6505+ is more focused but lacks some of the low-mid grind the original version has. However, the difference is a very slight one at best.

There is a store I don't frequent that often in my area that started carrying Herberts. I don't go within 5 miles of the place's gravity pull. The last thing I need is $4000 worth of GAS

I hear ya! The price is really a put-off. I still don't know if I could justify spending such a ludicrous amount of money. But GAS... Over here in Europe, the Herbert head costs about EUR 2999,-. Unfortunately, this does not include the Columbus footswitch, which goes for another EUR 379,- That would make a total of approx. EUR 3400,- Cheaper than in the USA, I guess, but still a fortune.

You owe it to yourself to try out the Mesa Stiletto and Lonestar, as well as the Roadster. I love my Road King... Does it out Fender a Fender or out Marshall a Marshall? No, but Unless you have all 3, it's the next best option.

Also, even though the Roadster is based off the Recto, you don't have to dial it in to sound like Creed or Korn...

Yes, sir! At my next trip to the music store, if they still have the Roadster combo.

 

[PVFan]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

It's the tapers. The settings on the 2 amps would look a lot different to get the same sounds. Requires a lot of tweaks while comparing. At the same settings they would indeed sound different. Similarly, this is also one of the biggest differences between revisons 1 and 2 of the Uberschall, according to Bogner: the taper on the pre-gain control pot was made to be more linear as it gets turned up. Which is probably why the first revision Uber seemed to have so much more distortion (to me).

But never mind what I think about that 6505 and its pots. You're looking for a new amp. From your list I'd pick the Shiva. There is a 6L6 version and an EL34 version, and you should try both. And with these, speaker cab choice skyrockets in importance.

 

[sombersoul]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

But never mind what I think about that 6505 and its pots. You're looking for a new amp. From your list I'd pick the Shiva. There is a 6L6 version and an EL34 version, and you should try both. And with these, speaker cab choice skyrockets in importance.

Are the Shivas that picky? I was planning to use a custom-built oversized 2x12 cab with Eminence Governors. Since the original Shiva cab is equipped with V30s, I think my choice of cab should be appropriate.

I only found the EL34 version on sale here. Reverb or non-reverb.

Actually, I would probably like both, the Herbert and the Shiva. Haha, but obviously I can only afford one (and only want one!). I'm just afraid that the moment I plug in the guitar, I realize that the OTHER amp would have been the perfect one. There is no way of testing either amp beforehand. As I said in some earlier post, there are only the usual suspects at the music store.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

I'd go Shiva from that list. Pick the EL34 model if you lean Marshall, and the 6l6 model if you lean fender.

I agree about speaker choice: I haven't really liked the EL34 Shivas I've heard with V30s, the midrange gets a bit congested to my ears. However I recently heard one through greenbacks and it was stellar. Obviously you'd need a quad of them to handle the 80w, but it is an excellent sound amp.

 

[sombersoul]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

I'd go Shiva from that list. Pick the EL34 model if you lean Marshall, and the 6l6 model if you lean fender.

I agree about speaker choice: I haven't really liked the EL34 Shivas I've heard with V30s, the midrange gets a bit congested to my ears. However I recently heard one through greenbacks and it was stellar. Obviously you'd need a quad of them to handle the 80w, but it is an excellent sound amp.

I only saw the EL34 version around here anyway. Hm...I'm not such a big fan of the Greenbacks, and I also want to go 2x12. This rules this speaker out, I guess. But since the original Bogner Shiva cab comes with V30s, I'm thinking that the more mellow Governors should be fine. I saw this video on YouTube, which really has convinced me of the Shiva's capabilities. Just love the tone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRifqwuR3hE&feature=related

That guy is playing through a Bogner oversized 2x12 cab.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Amp choice - pointers please

Sure, the Shiva is a great amp regardless. In the end it's personal taste. I just found that the Shivas I heard with V30s weren't doing it for me compared to the XTC with V30s. Then I heard a Shiva with greenbacks...