Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

[Petrovsk Mizinski]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I solve this problem by not even using a tone pot in the first place

 

[glassman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Sorry guys...not really intending to resurrect this arguement but rather to add some information.

Magnet wire is tested with a LCR meter in the capacitance range to determine the dissipation factor of the insulation. The meter outputs a capacitance value and a dissipation factor. This dissipation factor (Df) is a measurement of the losses across the dielectric which varies greatly based on the degree of cure of the dielectric material. The capacitance value was not a factor of quality in this test with magnet wire.

I use a LCR bridge to measure capacitors but have never really paid attention to the Df result...maybe the difference lies there?!?

I don't have any PIO or other exotic caps to compare...may have to look into it at some point though.

This thread can die now...

 

[aegert]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Sorry guys...not really intending to resurrect this arguement but rather to add some information.

Magnet wire is tested with a LCR meter in the capacitance range to determine the dissipation factor of the insulation. The meter outputs a capacitance value and a dissipation factor. This dissipation factor (Df) is a measurement of the losses across the dielectric which varies greatly based on the degree of cure of the dielectric material. The capacitance value was not a factor of quality in this test with magnet wire.

I use a LCR bridge to measure capacitors but have never really paid attention to the Df result...maybe the difference lies there?!?

I don't have any PIO or other exotic caps to compare...may have to look into it at some point though.

This thread can die now...

Yes for sure.. I didn't want to go that technical...

GLASSMAN: If your not him don't ask LOL....If you want to try the PIO pm me and I'll send you a pair of k40's free gratis yes no charge.. pun intended... I have about 1000 .022's and many other values.. My .022's are 630v though but that is no issue they will fit no problem... This is only if you are in USA or Canada... If outside you can pay shipping inside I'll cover it..

I was thinking about making a mold for potting and making my own version of the bumble bee. I have to see if the 630v will fit in the same size as a 400v BB... If I did that and could mill the mold my self I would charge cheep for um'

But that will start the 400v vs. 630v sound comparison ROFL! If anything the 630's would sound better ... If you were a DOG! LOL

So glassman PM me and you can see for yourself..

I for one am not a good enough guitar player to tell the difference. The brass block, saddles, bridge made the biggest diff for me... then pickups... That does not account for tone wood...

I do see a big diff between blown glass, molded glass, steel and brass slides though LMAO!

I like to laugh

A

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Unless you install a switch in your guitar that lets you switch back and forth between two caps (one PIO and one Poly) which you have measured and know are exactly the same value, you'll never know for sure what, if any difference exists between the two types of caps in a guitar's passive tone circuit.

Install the switch, turn your tone control down a bit and throw the switch and see if you hear a difference when you toggle between the two caps. Turn the tone control down a little more and toggle between the two caps and see if you hear a diff. Turn it down some more and toggle between the two. Turn the tone down all the way and toggle between the two caps and see if you hear a diff. I heard no dramatic or truly notable difference.

Those who continue to insist there IS a difference are those who have REFUSED to do this test. Those who insist they hear very little or no difference are those who HAVE done this test. Simple as that.

But if you're unwilling to do this test I've got to think you're just unwilling to put your beliefs to the test and suffer the possible embarrassment (although only to yourself) of proving yourself wrong.

Or maybe it'll be the opposite. Maybe you'll prove yourself right.

I've only done this test with Stratocaster pickups. Perhaps there is a more noticeable difference with humbuckers which is why when I'm feeling better I'm going to do the test in a dual humbucker Strat I have. Sick as I'm feeling, I can't handle solder fumes right now. But when I'm back on my feet I'll do the test with humbuckers. And I'll report the results honestly. If I've been wrong I'll admit it.

No one loves good tone more than me. If I hear a better tone with humbuckers using PIO caps I'll switch.

BTW, I do have a Hovland PIO cap in my favorite solid body guitar, my '54 Tele which has Barden pickups. I'm not opposed to using them - I just don't hear any improvement when I use them.

 

[FuelGTRX]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I think I have created a monster:wizard:

Got the ceramic disc caps in the LP last week, but my amp crapped out on me before I could try it. Now I'm dealing with replacing a blown output transformer tonight before I can even try it out :smack:

I have personally heard differences in the past between ceramic and mica caps, but I have noticed more of a difference from switching to 50's wiring and switching values than that, so it wasn't huge. I'm doubting much of a change. This LP Standard is a dang monkey on my back

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I wanted to do a bit of leg work before responding.

I've installed all kinds of caps into guitars over the years and honestly don't hear much of a difference between them.

But I think that may vary from person to person.
I think the best way to test for yourself is what Lew suggested.

I wanted to talk to a couple of luthiers and tech's I know before answering.
The common consesus?

Don't hear much of a difference,but using good parts installed correctly will help overall sound.

One thing I used to advise people was when they upgraded their pick-ups I would suggest that at some point they improve the pots and have the entire guitar resoldered as a bad solder join can do more damage to sound than low priced parts from my experience.

So - IMO - if you want to use the different caps be prepared to not hear much of a difference.
You may,but as I said I think that will vary from person to person,(hell,Eric Johnson claims to hear the difference between batteries in his pedals)

We're beating a dead horse on this issue,but I too have done the testing via an installed switch that I could toggle back and forth....My testing was also done "only" on one of my strats....Not to continue a war,but I still agree with Lew's findings and have been there myself..I find the cap value increase or decrease makes a difference though.My ears and my highend isn't like that of a 20-30 year old and I will factor that into the equation also though.Just like Lew and those who really know me,tone is first and foremost and I would spend bigger money on tone caps in any one of my guitars,if "I" honestly felt the tonal difference was substantial enough.From a guy that has modded probably a 100 pedals and more for players to improve on their tone!

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

It's funny how this posting went full circle! ;o)

 

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Unless you install a switch in your guitar that lets you switch back and forth between two caps (one PIO and one Poly) which you have measured and know are exactly the same value, you'll never know for sure what, if any difference exists between the two types of caps in a guitar's passive tone circuit.

My 22 nF set has two ceramics in there (in addition to the PIO and the musicap). One ceramic is a randomly picked one. The other one I hand-picked from a 100 pack to have the closest value to the musicap that I could fine (on a multimeter supporting capacitance).

There is no audible difference between those two ceramics, but both sound different from the musicap.

The +- 10% really don't matter at all.

Install the switch, turn your tone control down a bit and throw the switch and see if you hear a difference when you toggle between the two caps. Turn the tone control down a little more and toggle between the two caps and see if you hear a diff. Turn it down some more and toggle between the two. Turn the tone down all the way and toggle between the two caps and see if you hear a diff. I heard no dramatic or truly notable difference.

No, that's useless. The switch must be controlled by a different person without you seeing it.

I've only done this test with Stratocaster pickups. Perhaps there is a more noticeable difference with humbuckers which is why when I'm feeling better I'm going to do the test in a dual humbucker Strat I have. Sick as I'm feeling, I can't handle solder fumes right now. But when I'm back on my feet I'll do the test with humbuckers. And I'll report the results honestly. If I've been wrong I'll admit it.

I couldn't hear anything with single coils either.

Only high-quality PAFs, namely my Antiquities.

And I can only hear it when listening to what I recorded before. I can not tell while playing.

No one loves good tone more than me. If I hear a better tone with humbuckers using PIO caps I'll switch.

BTW, I do have a Hovland PIO cap in my favorite solid body guitar, my '54 Tele which has Barden pickups. I'm not opposed to using them - I just don't hear any improvement when I use them.

That's because the difference is very small.

Maybe you also need to record it?

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

No, that's useless. The switch must be controlled by a different person without you seeing it.

I'm not sure that's true - what's important is that you don't know which switch position corresponds to which switch.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I'm not sure that's true - what's important is that you don't know which switch position corresponds to which switch.

True. But if you depend on recordings to tell that would make it very difficult, since you need some kind of log for that which a person flipping the switch could write.

You could do a computer controlled relay I suppose.

Remember you need a good sample size to have a meaningful blind test.

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

When testing and comparing different types of capacitors regardless of what kind they are a few things need to be considered.

1. If your Tone control is on 10 you will not hear any difference at all because the caps are not doing anything, even if you use some type of switching method.

2. When you are testing caps how far are you rolling off your Tone control, do you test them at 8-then 6-then 4- then then 2-rolled and finally all the way to 0? (each cap may have it's own curve and they will vary)

3. Are you doing your testing with only a clean setting, a crunch setting or a wide variety of Tones settings on your amp?

4. Have you tested the same caps in 2 or 3 different guitars or just 1?

5. Have you tried testing them on the same amp but changing th eq settings on that amp to vary the frequencies the amp produces and see if that matters?

It's easy to say "I couldn't hear much of a difference" after spending 15-20 minutes of testing. But until you spend hours or even days dong this type of testing over several years you really have not done a thorough enough test to really know if there is any major or subtle differences between capacitors.

 

[jimijames]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

It's easy to say "I couldn't hear much of a difference" after spending 15-20 minutes of testing. But until you spend hours or even days dong this type of testing over several years you really have not done a thorough enough test to really know if there is any major or subtle differences between capacitors.

Yes, but then you've spent several years listening to sound samples, trying to find a difference so minute that the people who claim that there is one at all admit that its less than switching between 50's and modern wiring.

Think about that - years of your life gone, and the end result is that your guitar tone is so minutely better that nobody who listens to you play (even if it's solo and recorded) will be able to tell the difference than if you had just used whatever was available.

It's years that you could be practicing, years that you could be raising a family, years that you could be enjoying playing guitar rather than tweaking it. I agree tone chasing is a noble pursuit (I mean, I'm on the forum, aren't I?) but you reach a point where you need to stop chasing tone and just play.

Some of the best advice I ever read was by tom morello - he said that when he stopped chasing tone, he was free. He found something that worked, said "good enough" and moved on. That's not going to work for everybody, but it helps put things in perspective, I hope.

 

[aegert]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Yes, but then you've spent several years listening to sound samples, trying to find a difference so minute that the people who claim that there is one at all admit that its less than switching between 50's and modern wiring.

Think about that - years of your life gone, and the end result is that your guitar tone is so minutely better that nobody who listens to you play (even if it's solo and recorded) will be able to tell the difference than if you had just used whatever was available.

It's years that you could be practicing, years that you could be raising a family, years that you could be enjoying playing guitar rather than tweaking it. I agree tone chasing is a noble pursuit (I mean, I'm on the forum, aren't I?) but you reach a point where you need to stop chasing tone and just play.

Some of the best advice I ever read was by tom morello - he said that when he stopped chasing tone, he was free. He found something that worked, said "good enough" and moved on. That's not going to work for everybody, but it helps put things in perspective, I hope.

UTOPIA! Brother...

I build what I like and I love it.. Then move on to the next project. Cuz its fun and it drives my wife crazy ROFL. and love that too ;-). I only fiddle with things that are glaring.. These caps are not glaring. So I use them some times cause I have them. I use ceramic where they fit and orange drop cuz I have bags of NOS I use in amps. .. I have 500pc of k40's @630v and bags of sprauge, westron, guedeman,,, etc I use them sometimes.. I have about 40pc NOS spruage 'black cats' and a bunch of bumble bees.. all of these in many values so I use them... I do not like them in Fender/Marshall amp circuits.. To precise and hard but in an audiophile amp they are amazing.

To be frank its all in the hands of the player and 99% of people can't hear the difference between the neck and the bridge PU LOL let alone a cap but.... If you believe it makes you sound better it does...

That is not a knock it is cold hard fact.. If you see your self draining a 3 point shot you do.. If you just know you can do something it is 90% of the battle. If some one hears the difference as glaring and it makes them play better.. Awesome it does! If you think its all %#^$ and then is &#*$!



A

 

[jake_xms3_punk]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

To be frank its all in the hands of the player and 99% of people can't hear the difference between the neck and the bridge PU LOL let alone a cap but.... If you believe it makes you sound better it does...

im asuming you mean the non musician portion of the audience? 99% of the audience can't even hear a difference between single coils and humbuckers, can't tell mahogany from ash, a5 from a2 pickup magnets, let alone different bridges, nuts and all the other variables, yet we still have preferences. we have preferences for oursleves, no one else. so if you believe expensive caps make a difference to you then whats the problem?

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

MojoMan quote...

1. If your Tone control is on 10 you will not hear any difference at all because the caps are not doing anything, even if you use some type of switching method.

The loading of both the cap and the tone pot's resistance does make a difference when the tone pot is on 10....If you were to install a "No Load Tone" pot or disconnect the tone control totally,you would hear more highs and presence from that pickup..The whole reason for the No Load tone pot then,was to unload the cap and the pot resistance..

Also....the bigger the cap value,the darker your tone becomes as you roll closer to 0 on the tone pot...The larger value cap also does very slightly make the tone darker,even with the tone pot on 10....I Know from experimenting quite a bit with different caps and values from .01 up to .1...

This was my findings and of course YMMV?

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

im asuming you mean the non musician portion of the audience? 99% of the audience can't even hear a difference between single coils and humbuckers, can't tell mahogany from ash, a5 from a2 pickup magnets, let alone different bridges, nuts and all the other variables, yet we still have preferences. we have preferences for oursleves, no one else. so if you believe expensive caps make a difference to you then whats the problem?

Very valid points....When I was using a Fender Cyber Twin live for awhile,other guitar players thought I was playing through and old BlackFaced Fender combo...When I told them it was a digital modeling amp with just 2 12AX7s,I got that dis-belief look....I pretty much only play through my 66 BF Fender Pro Reverb amp these days and so I find it kinda ironic. ;o)

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

No Load Tone Pots...

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/CPFNL12/Original_Fender_No_Load_Tone_Pot__Solid_Shaft.html

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Thanks for the link.
They have some stuff I've been looking for at a pretty solid price.

You're welcome brother John John...

 

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Yes, but then you've spent several years listening to sound samples, trying to find a difference so minute that the people who claim that there is one at all admit that its less than switching between 50's and modern wiring.

Think about that - years of your life gone, and the end result is that your guitar tone is so minutely better that nobody who listens to you play (even if it's solo and recorded) will be able to tell the difference than if you had just used whatever was available.

It's years that you could be practicing, years that you could be raising a family, years that you could be enjoying playing guitar rather than tweaking it. I agree tone chasing is a noble pursuit (I mean, I'm on the forum, aren't I?) but you reach a point where you need to stop chasing tone and just play.

Some of the best advice I ever read was by tom morello - he said that when he stopped chasing tone, he was free. He found something that worked, said "good enough" and moved on. That's not going to work for everybody, but it helps put things in perspective, I hope.

Well first of all brother you don't really know me, so don't judge me because you haven't a clue who I am or what I do. Music is my Life, I have played out and taught lessons and built custom wiring for decades. What do you do for a living???? http://www.tonemojo.com/

I have been playing and chasing Good Tone for over 30 years, so that is why the word years applies.

And I notice considerable differences not minute differences between different types of caps and wiring. If there was no difference in Tone then Seymour Duncan would have wound one type of pu for each kind of guitar and called it a day.

Tone is what I do for a living so me spending time finding out what works and what doesn't helps me to feed my family vs taking away from them. I have two kids and a wife and have been married for over twenty years.

My wife has MS, so I take care of her and my 7 year old daughter, cook clean, do laundry and still work 8-10 hours a day at my business. When you are clocking in to your day job tomorrow I will be on the bench building and testing custom wiring right after I get my daughter off to school.

Other people all around the world, EU, AU, UK etc. have benefited from what I have to offer and can tell an improvement in their Tone...here is some of my ebay feed back....Check it out for yourself.

http://stores.ebay.com/Jonesyblues-Custom-Shop

A+++ Awesome product! Awesome tone! Awesome customer service! Don't hesitate!! Buyer: w_cyrier ( 10) Nov-24-09 09:47

Jonesyblues is absolutely the best in the buiz when it comes to cap's! Buyer: marks7295 ( 4 ) Nov-18-09 20:25
Sprague Vitamin Q .01 PIO Primo Tone Cap Gibson LP SG (#350268409083)

Thanks Jonesy! It's better than I expected. Buyer: ratmix107 ( 278) Oct-21-09 15:05
Fender Stratocaster Blues Tone Tune up Kit .033 PIO Cap (#350258410500)

 

[jimijames]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Well first of all brother you don't really know me, so don't judge me because you haven't a clue who I am or what I do. Music is my Life, I have played out and taught lessons and built custom wiring for decades. What do you do for a living???? http://www.tonemojo.com/

I have been playing and chasing Good Tone for over 30 years, so that is why the word years applies.

And I notice considerable differences not minute differences between different types of caps and wiring. If there was no difference in Tone then Seymour Duncan would have wound one type of pu for each kind of guitar and called it a day.

Tone is what I do for a living so me spending time finding out what works and what doesn't helps me to feed my family vs taking away from them. I have two kids and a wife and have been married for over twenty years.

My wife has MS, so I take care of her and my 7 year old daughter, cook clean, do laundry and still work 8-10 hours a day at my business. When you are clocking in to your day job tomorrow I will be on the bench building and testing custom wiring right after I get my daughter off to school.

Other people all around the world, EU, AU, UK etc. have benefited from what I have to offer and can tell an improvement in their Tone...here is some of my ebay feed back....Check it out for yourself.

http://stores.ebay.com/Jonesyblues-Custom-Shop

A+++ Awesome product! Awesome tone! Awesome customer service! Don't hesitate!! Buyer: w_cyrier ( 10) Nov-24-09 09:47

Jonesyblues is absolutely the best in the buiz when it comes to cap's! Buyer: marks7295 ( 4 ) Nov-18-09 20:25
Sprague Vitamin Q .01 PIO Primo Tone Cap Gibson LP SG (#350268409083)

Thanks Jonesy! It's better than I expected. Buyer: ratmix107 ( 278) Oct-21-09 15:05
Fender Stratocaster Blues Tone Tune up Kit .033 PIO Cap (#350258410500)

Woah, relax there - that wasn't directed as a personal attack and I certainly didn't call into question your commitment to the craft of playing guitar. I was merely calling into question your dismissal of other people's opinions as less valid because they haven't spent the same amount of time analyzing caps. I never called you a liar or said that there's no difference, and I certainly don't judge people on how they spend their time.

I'm glad you're a professional musician, but the vast majority of the members of this forum aren't - obviously my advice doesn't apply to everybody and the extent to which one chases tone is up to the discretion of that individual. What to you constitutes a worthwhile pursuit may not be worth it to the average hobbyist.

I'm not calling you names or insulting you or anything of that nature, if my comment came off as argumentative that was certainly not the intent. Relax, this thread is heated enough as it is - And I'm certainly not trying to fan the flames.

edit: I should also mention that when I used the word 'you' in my post I was using it to refer to anybody who might be reading it - it would have been truer to my intent to use the word 'one' rather than 'you'. Sorry for the confusion if that is indeed what you were objecting to.

Also I don't understand the connection you make between caps and wiring and pickups - I said that the difference between caps was more minute than the difference between 50's and modern wiring, not that there was no difference. And even if there was no difference, I don't see how one can extrapolate that to mean that there's no difference between all types of components...