Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

[AniML]

I just got mine and love it. But being an insatiable tone addict I am already curious about tube swaps.

I've tried changing out the Sovtek EL84s for JJs and I prefer the stock Sovteks - and probably won't mess with them any time soon - they've got enough headroom on tap and they crunch just fine too. But...

I am curious about the preamp tubes so I am wondering what everyone may have tried and liked / not liked. I am triing to get a bit more articulate "singing" from the thick mode. Think of the creamy Les Paul neck into a Marshall or Orange tone we all love. But I don't want to lose the characteristic Vox chime in low gain applications either - if this is possible.

My thought is maybe a bit higher gain tube and at the same time turning the gain control down.

IDK, maybe I just need to get to know the amp better, but I am interested in any experiences you guys can share.

It has been suggested that I try a Ruby 12AX7AC5 paired with a JJ ECC803S or an 83S.

Thx

 

[Wattage]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

I really like EH and Ruby pre's. JJ's always sound woofy and dark to me, very flat.

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

OK, so the lack of responses to my post affirms the fact that there is no easy answer except for patient and very subjective trial and error.

I borrowed the JJ ECC83S from my SCXD and really liked what it did to the NT in V1, with the stock Sovtek still in V2. I then reversed and the improvement was there, but minimal.

I am going to try to grab a few inexpensive NOS (RCA, GE, Sylvania, etc) off ebay because I owe it to myself to give them a try. Also, I think I will also try out the Ruby 12AX7AC5 and the JJ 803 recommended by Doug Preston, and maybe the Mullard RI and a couple of others (Sovtek LPS, Svetlana)

At this point I have learned the JJ 83 is well worth the $10 admission over the stock 12AX7WA

In the end I expect the difference will mostly be splitting hairs, but I hope to find a gem or two.

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

the nos was the way to go for me. I'm starting to really like the $20 GE I got in v1.

 

[jones]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Many people , including myself, have been impressed with the Tung-Sol reissues. I think they are better than any other new production tube I have tried. The Sovtek LPS being pretty good too. I am planning on trying the New Sensor (same company that has the Tung-Sol reissue) Mullard reissue soon, it gets good reviews too.

NOS can be a very expensive crap shoot in my experience. I bought three NOS Sylvania 12AX7's, and one went microphonic in a few months. I bought a NOS Phillips branded Mullard, that is sweet, but I spent about $80 on it. I eventually decided to only use it in my mic pre, and am now using the Tung-Sol's in my Marshal JTM45.

If you decide to go for some NOS, do your research. The old companies that made tubes often sold them to each other, and rebranded them. I have a Sylvania branded 5AR4 that is actually a Mullard GZ34.

Good luck.

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

the nos was the way to go for me. I'm starting to really like the $20 GE I got in v1.

A few Sam Adams and I just scored a pair of ANOS Mullard 12AX7s on eBay !

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

I still have to save some cash to experiment with tubes.

I am really interested on Mullard RI. I already checked the Tung Sol RI, the in other amps and they are a bit on the dark side, at least for V1.

Will keep reading your results, they could be very useful for me.

Interesting. I found the Tung Sol RI to be a bit too bright for me.

Looking forward to getting the Mullards I scored on ebay last night. They weren't unworldly priced - about twice the price of a typical decent PROD tube. I figured if I buy a bunch of production tubes, I am going to dismiss half of them anyway. And I was comfortable with the buy, the seller has hundreds of feedbacks and 100% as a tube seller

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

With regard to vintage tubes, it should be noted that many current production amps are designed and voiced around 25 cent Russian and Chinese tubes, and in many cases, vintage preamp tubes simply don't have the same effect that they would in a vintage amp. This is where some experimentation is necessary to see if it is worth going ahead and investing in vintage tubes. Should it be the case that an amp benefits from the good stuff, it is then important to understand some of the major tonal differences between the tubes made by the Golden Age companies. It stands to reason that a lot of typically American styled amps used tubes made in the US factories. RCA were always the kings when it came to tone, and their 50's blackplates are amongst the finest 12AX7's ever made, however they sound totally out of place in a British style amp. The same goes for the lesser players like the original Tung Sols and Sylvania. GE were always tonally inferior to RCA, but still made sturdy, long lasting tubes. However, none of these really shine in a British voiced amp. This is where Mullards came in.

The Mullard ECC83's (12AX7) that created the sonic legend for the likes of Marshall and Vox were the early to mid 60's Blackburn factory short plates. By the time IEC bought out Mullard circa '67, the quality of Mullard tubes (or valves as they would no doubt prefer them to be called!) had already dropped substantially. In truth, early 60's Blackburn Mullards are actually quite inefficient in the frequency extremes compared to say an RCA blackplate. Of course, this translates into what seems to be an abundance of midrange, which was an integral part of the sound of British amps from the 60's and early 70's. Combined with a set of Mullard EL-34's or EL-84's (both of which are now virtually impossible to find) they created a magical combination which many guitar players continue to seek in their tone, however technology has not been able to replicate these sounds without the presence of these wonderful old Golden Age tubes, any more than a plastic digital keyboard with a "Hammond" setting actually sounds like standing next to a B3 into a Leslie.

Also, when dealing with vintage tubes, it is not necessary to pay the exorbitant dealer prices for New Old Stock. The real bargains are in "good used" tubes that have around 90% of their life left in them, which translates to potentially 5-8 years of usable life. While many people claim that vintage tubes are overpriced, the true economy of scale presents itself when we take into account the factor of longevity. If you pay $40 for a good used Mullard that lasts 8 years, or $15 per tube for current production stock that last two years each, the truth of the matter reveals itself. This is before we have discussed the difference in tone.

But first of all, you need to find out if the amp in question will benefit from having good tubes. If not, then you will need to sift through the available current production tubes to hear what works best for you.




Cheers........................................ wahwah

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

lots of useful stuff

That was all great info!

And your band rocks!!

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Wah -

Thanks for taking the time. I am encouraged by some of your tidbits that I am on the right track with my quest. Specifically, that I have a pair of Mullards on the way for my NT and that I did not pay through the nose for them since they tested "as new" but are not NOS.

I guess the fact that I am starting with something that is among the best and well suited to a Vox, I should know rather quickly if they will make a worthwhile difference in this particular amp.

Thanks again

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

I'm following this thread with interest ...

 

[glassman]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

You may even want to consider a 12AY7 in V1 if a more dynamic, expressive feel is desired.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Wah -

Thanks for taking the time. I am encouraged by some of your tidbits that I am on the right track with my quest. Specifically, that I have a pair of Mullards on the way for my NT and that I did not pay through the nose for them since they tested "as new" but are not NOS.

I guess the fact that I am starting with something that is among the best and well suited to a Vox, I should know rather quickly if they will make a worthwhile difference in this particular amp.

Thanks again

You're welcome AniML. My vintage tube obsession started in 2003, and since then I have stocked up on a supply of both 50's blackplate RCA 12AX7's and early 60's Blackburn Mullard ECC83's. I currently have them in 4 different amps, and they have made substantial improvements to all of them. I also have some vintage power tubes, specifically blackplate RCA 6V6GT's for my Super Champs and a 60's Mullard EL-84 for my 5w Ulbrick Firebottle. For my EL-34 and 6L6 powered amps, I have settled on SED's.

If those Mullards work well in your Night Train, you won't find anything in current production stock that comes close. It really comes down to the years of manufacture, because the difference between a '63 Mullard and a '68 is substantial. If they don't make a great deal of difference or sound outright 'wrong' then it will be the case that the amp's circuitry has been designed around current production stuff, but at least then you will know what you're dealing with. If they work well, expect to notice an added dimension to the tone, and a higher degree of dynamic range and sensitivity. It will be interesting to hear the outcome.



Cheers...................................... wahwah

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

The date codes are B85 and B3F3. I understand the B=Blackburn. The seller has said one is a long plate the other a short. I don't have them yet so I am not sure which is which, but I am guessing (optimistically) they are '58 and '63, though has your example happend to point out they could be '63 and '68. I think I read somethere that the shorter (3 char) codes are the older nomenclature.

As I commented earlier, the JJ did show an immediate improvement over the stock Sovtek, but I also realize that both are production tubes. BTW, I am not a Sovtek hater and I think I prefer the Sovtek EL84s over JJs in the Vox, but I will try those again after I audition the Mullards

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

I'm against using lower gain factor preamp tubes in the night train.

One of the NT's fine points is the medium-light dirt from cranking the gain on the bright mode. my nos 12ax7's offer slightly less gain than new production stuff, so it's only breaking up a lil with the gain on 7 or 8/10. anything less and I doubt I could get much preamp breakup at all.

So unless you're bent on using pedals for your bright mode dirt, or just saying f the tone stack and using thick mode the whole time, I'd suggest a 12ax7 for v1 and 2 (according to a schematic the preamp is actually labeled v3 and v4, btw)

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Fuse: You mentioned you are using a NOS GE. How are you liking it? In part I ask because Wahwah's conventional wisdom suggests it might not pair up well with a British voiced amp. I wonder if that is just a subjective thing or perhaps it supports his suggestion that the modern amp design / technology might not be as sensitive to tube variations.

Side note #1: I tried my Ibanez swell flanger into the NT. I don't want to abuse it to the point of a gimmick, but used in moderation it is heavenly

Side note #2: It took a bit of patience and persistence, but I am very happy to see this thread is growing some legs. Keep it going!

 

[wahwah]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

The date codes are B85 and B3F3. I understand the B=Blackburn. The seller has said one is a long plate the other a short. I don't have them yet so I am not sure which is which, but I am guessing (optimistically) they are '58 and '63, though has your example happend to point out they could be '63 and '68. I think I read somethere that the shorter (3 char) codes are the older nomenclature.

I would suggest that the long plate is probably a 50's Mullard, because as I understand it, they discontinued long plate production around 1960. I'd hazard a guess that is the B85 coded tube. An audiophile would love to have that tube! It's true that the four character codes came later, although Mullard returned to the 3 character codes at various times throughout the 60's, just to confuse the crap out of us! I'd be backing the short plate to be a '63, and even go out on a limb and predict it sounds the better of the two in a guitar amp. Hearing is believing, so I look forward to hearing your findings!



Cheers....................................... wahwah

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Fuse: You mentioned you are using a NOS GE. How are you liking it? In part I ask because Wahwah's conventional wisdom suggests it might not pair up well with a British voiced amp. I wonder if that is just a subjective thing or perhaps it supports his suggestion that the modern amp design / technology might not be as sensitive to tube variations.

Side note #1: I tried my Ibanez swell flanger into the NT. I don't want to abuse it to the point of a gimmick, but used in moderation it is heavenly

Side note #2: It took a bit of patience and persistence, but I am very happy to see this thread is growing some legs. Keep it going!

mine's a bright tube with a lot of definition. With the strat bridge position, in bright mode with the gain up and master down, I have to roll the treble back down somewhere if I'm gonna use its but with past bedroom level the icepick mellows out nicely

 

[Got_tone?]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

Also, when dealing with vintage tubes, it is not necessary to pay the exorbitant dealer prices for New Old Stock. The real bargains are in "good used" tubes that have around 90% of their life left in them, which translates to potentially 5-8 years of usable life. While many people claim that vintage tubes are overpriced, the true economy of scale presents itself when we take into account the factor of longevity. If you pay $40 for a good used Mullard that lasts 8 years, or $15 per tube for current production stock that last two years each, the truth of the matter reveals itself. This is before we have discussed the difference in tone.

Cheers........................................ wahwah

+1 I got a vintage Tung sol 6v6gt for $10. I got it used of course but it has plenty of life left.

 

[AniML]

Re: Attention Night Train owners / Tube gurus

mine's a bright tube with a lot of definition. With the strat bridge position, in bright mode with the gain up and master down, I have to roll the treble back down somewhere if I'm gonna use its but with past bedroom level the icepick mellows out nicely

I'm just going by what you're describing in your own words, but it sounds like you are compensating for something that does not match up well. Granted icepick and strat bridge can be synonomous. What I am reading though is that you MUST roll back the treble to even get a desirable musical tone, rather than rolling back to mellow it out. Gain up / master down should be gritty not brittle

Bright amp + bright tube + bright guitar + bright pickup = ears