Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

I read something dead on one time, in a comic book of all places, "There is no justice, only the law." The wood in question will be seized and things will move on. Perhaps fines too but if the law says the wood cant be used anymore then we as consumers should respect that also until it changes in one way or the other. Politics of Wood. :eyecrazy::naughty::friday:

Edited to add: I meant that to knowingly buy things that are not allowed. Like Ivory from unknown sources.
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Zerberus said:
The truth hurts sometimes, you´ll have to learn to live with it. :D

Thx kojak, I hadn´t read up on the Lacey Act itself. :friday:
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Yeah but he is blaming the government of the USA. He doesn't understand that Big Business is what really controls the USA and that somewhere some big corporation is behind this, paying someone huge dollars to go after Gibson
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

You people scare me.

It's simple, right? They found illegal wood in 2009. Now they are checking back. Gibson sure straightened up their act after the 2009 raid, no? Well maybe not. We'll know soon enough.

Isn't Gibson the biggest guitar maker anyway?
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Looks like to me another example of Gibson cutting corners. They know what they bought - legal or illegal.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

uOpt said:
You people scare me.

It's simple, right? They found illegal wood in 2009. Now they are checking back. Gibson sure straightened up their act after the 2009 raid, no? Well maybe not. We'll know soon enough.

Isn't Gibson the biggest guitar maker anyway?
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Its not simple at all. They didnt find illegal wood in 2009. In fact NO CHARGES at all have been filed stemming from the 2009 raid. Its all just held up in the court system. But Gibson has never been charged with wrong doing let alone convicted of it.

And guess what the 4th amendment still exists. They cant just "check back" to get a search warrant you still have to have a judge sign off on it. They cant just say "well we found stuff there before so we can look again at will" it doesnt work that way.

Whats scarier is your lack of understanding of the constitutional violations that are going on.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

uOpt said:
Contraband is contraband. If you knowingly possess it you get busted. If you unknowingly possess it it gets confiscated.

The Gibson raid that led to this was in 2009. If they still have the same material they are simply stupid and can't claim they didn't know anything.

Keep in mind these laws have been made long before Obama.
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You didnt read anything about anything did you? You just post without knowing. The 2009 raid involved ebony from madagascar this raid involves rosewood from india and again no charges have been filed.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Barron1 said:
Yeah but he is blaming the government of the USA. He doesn't understand that Big Business is what really controls the USA and that somewhere some big corporation is behind this, paying someone huge dollars to go after Gibson
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..or maybe it is just Gibson cutting corners to save huge dollars that got them into the trouble in the past and now. It is hard to speculate without knowing all the facts of the case.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Environmental laws are a fuzzy, gray-area and the whole concept tends to be heated and divided along political-ideological lines.

My libertarian side says that the Constitution doesn't protect trees or animals but citizens, from violence or thievery. The fact is, a group of armed men with "special powers" to use violence, coming into a private business and "confiscating" private property and sellable goods is thievery, plain and simple. Instituting fines is extortion, plain and simple, when the "crime" doesn't involve violence or theft against other citizens. The idea that trees, mountain tops, wild animals and such, can be used as a leverage for extortion, thievery and force, is complete crackpot "color of law" nonsense.

I do feel that if Gibson was knowingly breaking a contract, that is one thing. However, financially damaging a company and its employees, because of shadowy color of law, based around the protection of trees is beyond the pale.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

guitarrob said:
..or maybe it is just Gibson cutting corners to save huge dollars that got them into the trouble in the past and now. It is hard to speculate without knowing all the facts of the case.
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Well, these woods, if they are illegally gotten, would be MORE expensive because of their rarity and the risk involved in attaining them. Drilling big holes in the bodies, to cut down on aggregate shipping weight on the other hand....
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Yep. If they did it then they have to man up to it. If it is just some third party trying to bankrupt them with lawsuits well that is something totally different.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

IanBallard said:
Well, these woods, if they are illegally gotten, would be MORE expensive because of their rarity and the risk involved in attaining them. Drilling big holes in the bodies, to cut down on aggregate shipping weight on the other hand....
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Well, that's what I was asking earlier. Is it a case of getting a stock of wood that is hard to come by so they went to a dealer that cut down from a protected forest.
-or did they get a big stock of wood for really cheap because of where it was cut.

Illegal products are usually lower in price....that is the idea behind taking the risk to get them. that is why people buy stolen goods everyday because they are cheaper.
There has to be something in it for them or else why bother with the risk?

What is the point of paying more for something illegal when they can just through normal channels for industry prices?

If it is a rarity thing, then to get back their money they would have to advertise what the wood is right?

Again, I am not saying they did or did not break the law just discussing the point of it.
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Wow, after looking over that and the video of the people from Gibson, it sounds really shady.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Edgecrusher said:
Its not simple at all. They didnt find illegal wood in 2009. In fact NO CHARGES at all have been filed stemming from the 2009 raid. Its all just held up in the court system. But Gibson has never been charged with wrong doing let alone convicted of it.

And guess what the 4th amendment still exists. They cant just "check back" to get a search warrant you still have to have a judge sign off on it. They cant just say "well we found stuff there before so we can look again at will" it doesnt work that way.

Whats scarier is your lack of understanding of the constitutional violations that are going on.
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A lawsuit against Gibson based on the 2009 raid was filed June 2011. I posted links earlier.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

After reading the affadavit, it would appear that Gibson (likely unknowingly, but that is at this time not yetr relevant) purchased illegal wood through Luthiers Mercantile, more specifically fretboard blanks (which are illegal to export from india) declared as veneers. That means potential fraud charges as well....

And Edgecrusher: Actually, charges were filed in june of this year, unfortunately I can´t tell you which of the seemingly countless "gibson was raided" threads the link is in, I think the one in the sound room ;)
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

drpietrzak said:
Here is the actual affidavit filed to obtain the search and seizure warrant. It details the issues ....

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wtvf/PDF/GibsonAffidavit.pdf
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Basically states that India doesn't allow Indian Rosewood to be exported in widths over 6mm, and that anyone importing Indian Rosewood blanks to manufacturer fretboards in the United States is doing so illegally.

It's also states that Gibson falsified documents to state that the blanks were actually veneers of less than 6mm thick.

India allows the export of Indian Rosewood veneers.

They also allow the export of Indian Rosewood over 6mm thick provided it is finished in India.


Isn't just about everyone using Indian Rosewood these days?
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

some_dude said:
....
Isn't just about everyone using Indian Rosewood these days?
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^^ hence my earlier statement that they should (at least in theory) be cracking down on every guitar company with a US manufacturing base. ;)
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Maybe they were exporting veneers and then layering them for fretboards?

I don't like the idea that they can shut them down without due process.
 
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