Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

BTW, how would you like being stopped when re-entering the US just because your trusted guitar maker used illegal woods?

I don''t know why people keep connecting the issue of traveling with guitars with the Gibson case in a way that defends Gibson. They put you in jeopardy by putting illegal woods on the product they sell you.

If I pick up a used amp on Craigslist that happens to have cocaine stashed away in it from a forgetful or deceased previous owner then I am still liable if I get caught with it.

And I don't see how simply dropping all laws protecting species like some here suggest somehow makes this county better.

How come PRS and Fender aren't in trouble? Why is it our best friend Juszkiewicz who has shown so much wacky behavior in the past who's getting into trouble again?
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

What I like best is that if you actually look up who made the law in question (the Lacey act), it was last changed (to include more plants, possibly what we are talking about here) in May 2008, when Bush was president.

It's simply that Obama doesn't like Les Pauls, I'm sure of it.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

guitarrob said:
Who is to say others are not following the right import procedures?
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If it's that simple then why isn't Gibson doing the same?

PRS for instances makes entire necks out of Indian Rosewood.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

some_dude said:
If it's that simple then why isn't Gibson doing the same?
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Well that is where this discussion comes in.
If it was done, why?
Was it just a mistake on their part or the importer or did they know exactly what they were doing and attempted to skirt the law to save money?
It is hard to know...if they broke the law intentionally or by mistake.
It is also hard to know if this is actually a good case or if their are other intentions behind it. It really sucks they are shut down without due process.

some_dude said:
PRS for instances makes entire necks out of Indian Rosewood.
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..or perhaps the Indians do and send them to PRS?
Is this wood type only found in the middle east?
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

IanBallard said:
My libertarian side says that the Constitution doesn't protect trees or animals but citizens, from violence or thievery. The fact is, a group of armed men with "special powers" to use violence, coming into a private business and "confiscating" private property and sellable goods is thievery, plain and simple. Instituting fines is extortion, plain and simple, when the "crime" doesn't involve violence or theft against other citizens. The idea that trees, mountain tops, wild animals and such, can be used as a leverage for extortion, thievery and force, is complete crackpot "color of law" nonsense.
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Straight frigging on :cool2:
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

uOpt said:
It's simply that Obama doesn't like Les Pauls, I'm sure of it.
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Absolutely nothing to do with Bama - Just another in a very long, long line.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

iismet said:
Due process at it's finest -
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Which is whats scary theres people here that are deciding Gibsons guilt or innocence based on the affidavit. The affidavit isnt proof it is merely suspicion the search warrant is then executed to try and find evidence to prove it. So far nothing is proven. Trying to paint Gibson as being shady or otherwise is really premature until all the facts come out.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Zerberus said:
After reading the affadavit, it would appear that Gibson (likely unknowingly, but that is at this time not yetr relevant) purchased illegal wood through Luthiers Mercantile, more specifically fretboard blanks (which are illegal to export from india) declared as veneers. That means potential fraud charges as well....

And Edgecrusher: Actually, charges were filed in june of this year, unfortunately I can´t tell you which of the seemingly countless "gibson was raided" threads the link is in, I think the one in the sound room ;)
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Then somebody should tell Henry. In the video that Pepe linked he talks about it and says that none have been filed in that proceeding.

I read the link the sound off room and in the article some of the language is hazy. If i read it right the filing was done after Gibson went to court to get its wood back the June 4th filing was to strike Gibsons claims. It wasnt the DOJ bringing this lawsuit the filing was a reaction to Gibsons. But im not positive its 4am for me and my legalese mind went to bed hours ago.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Is it possible that an official in India tipped off the US agent to this illegal shipment? According to the affidavit, India only allows the export of finished goods made from Indian Rosewood. I suppose the making of fingerboards (fretboards) could be a decent sized industry there that creates much needed jobs. So, a few unscrupulous businessmen try to circumnavigate the law (India's law regarding the export of "unfinished" wood) in order to save money.

I suppose Fender and PRS could be buying a finished product from India, or getting their Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia) from a different country? Here's a quote from Wikipedia: "...It can be found in tropical America, Southeast Asia, and Madagascar."

Another interesting tidbit from Wikipedia:

"In 2009 controversy arose surrounding the intensification of rosewood logging in Madagascar's national parks.[1] Logging was linked to criminal syndicates that laundered rosewood logs through Reunion and Mauritius before transporting timber to China for processing.[2] Finished wood and furniture was then shipped to Europe and the United States. In November 2009 Gibson Guitar Corporation in Nashville was raided by federal authorities for its alleged use of illegally sourced rosewood.[3] [4] The investigation is ongoing as of January 2010. In March 2010 the Malagasy government finally announced a ban of the rosewood export for a period between 2 and 5 years
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

ErikH said:
Interesting that India is brought up when the original article out yesterday mentioned Madagascar.

Either way, it's a load of B.S. There's more important things the gov't should be working on.
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Beerman said:
What a waste of time and money!
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Just big Goverment wasting our taxpayers money, how about jobs, fuel, housing or food, thats a worthy cause to pick up arms against.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

BrianS. said:
Is it possible that an official in India tipped off the US agent to this illegal shipment? According to the affidavit, India only allows the export of finished goods made from Indian Rosewood. I suppose the making of fingerboards (fretboards) could be a decent sized industry there that creates much needed jobs. So, a few unscrupulous businessmen try to circumnavigate the law (India's law regarding the export of "unfinished" wood) in order to save money.

I suppose Fender and PRS could be buying a finished product from India, or getting their Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia) from a different country? Here's a quote from Wikipedia: "...It can be found in tropical America, Southeast Asia, and Madagascar."

Another interesting tidbit from Wikipedia:

"In 2009 controversy arose surrounding the intensification of rosewood logging in Madagascar's national parks.[1] Logging was linked to criminal syndicates that laundered rosewood logs through Reunion and Mauritius before transporting timber to China for processing.[2] Finished wood and furniture was then shipped to Europe and the United States. In November 2009 Gibson Guitar Corporation in Nashville was raided by federal authorities for its alleged use of illegally sourced rosewood.[3] [4] The investigation is ongoing as of January 2010. In March 2010 the Malagasy government finally announced a ban of the rosewood export for a period between 2 and 5 years
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying here, but in this particular instance, they'll also have to define what India considers as a "finished" product and not what various businesses stateside do with it from there. In that case, it could be as simple as saw mill cutting the Rosewood logs into boards and grading them. There are several saw mills here in the states that do just that. Once they cut the logs and grade them, they are considered finished and sold off. One companies finished product is another companies raw materials.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Anyway you look at it, it spells bad juju for people that like to buy Gibson guitars. Gibson has lost production time, inventory, and are probably facing heavy fines from the first time they were raided. Gibson won't be paying for those lost monies. We will. I'm expecting yet another price hike in the near future.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

One companies finished product is another companies raw materials.
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In this case, I believe it is the government of India that is determining what is considered a finished product.
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

BrianS. said:
In this case, I believe it is the government of India that is determining what is considered a finished product.
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But Indian laws, in and of themselves and their determination of what is "finished" or "raw" has no jurisdiction in the United States. If customs missed the shipment it's on them. This is Constitutional violation of Gibson's property rights. If they attained goods that are illegal IN INDIA, that is the fault of the supplier (in Germany?) and Gibson likely bought what was available and it is not their responsibility to dot the i's and cross the t's, it is the supplier's responsibility.

This situation proves the inevitability of "World Governance" and the loss of sovereignty of nations. "International Environmental Laws" will spell the end of national sovereignty, as soon as we are paying taxes on China's carbon emissions... since we import so many of their goods. It's coming.
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

IanBallard said:
But Indian laws, in and of themselves and their determination of what is "finished" or "raw" has no jurisdiction in the United States. If customs missed the shipment it's on them. This is Constitutional violation of Gibson's property rights. If they attained goods that are illegal IN INDIA, that is the fault of the supplier (in Germany?) and Gibson likely bought what was available and it is not their responsibility to dot the i's and cross the t's, it is the supplier's responsibility.

This situation proves the inevitability of "World Governance" and the loss of sovereignty of nations. "International Environmental Laws" will spell the end of national sovereignty, as soon as we are paying taxes on China's carbon emissions... since we import so many of their goods. It's coming.
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Yes but you cannot go about it that way....
Just get the products out before they catch us and they are legal when we get the products home?
If they are importing the products, they should have to consider India's export laws and the US import laws. If customs misses the shipment, it doesn't suddenly make the products legal again. Maybe the company didn't know the products were illegal but that doesn't negate the fact they are and if they are, they cannot be used.

If they are a fine upstanding company, they can't go around breaking other countries export laws just to make more money here in North America. That is shady no matter how you look at it.

I don't think it is a "world governance" thing, but if you are going to do business with other countries then you have to take their export laws into account or else don't do business with them.

Again, not saying Gibson are guilty of anything...just discussing the points of the topic.
It is really a big tangled mess they are dealing with here isn't it?
 
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Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

IanBallard said:
This situation proves the inevitability of "World Governance" and the loss of sovereignty of nations. "International Environmental Laws" will spell the end of national sovereignty, as soon as we are paying taxes on China's carbon emissions... since we import so many of their goods. It's coming.
Click to expand...

Right out of the park!
 
Re: Buy a Gibson, become a criminal: only in America...

Our Justice Dept at work. This is so ridiculous. So if I purchase a picture frame made from rosewood and I add a photo or picture and then cover it with glass, am I guilty of not allowing East Indian workers to finish the end product? They are producing cut blanks from raw wood. They know exactly what they have been shipping to the U.S. for the past 30 years. I doubt India would want to lose all it's rosewood trade over this. I believe this is our current administration doing what it does very well. This is not the place for politics but this article puts a few things into perspective. http://landmarkreport.com/andrew/2011/08/ceo-of-gibson-guitar-a-republican-donor/ Come 2013... maybe it's Chris Martin's turn.
 
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