Buzz Feiten Tuning System
- Thread starter DavidRees
- Start date
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
It's alright...the guitar does play in tune better but I've yet to fine any sysem that will make a guitar play completely in tune all the time.
It's alright...the guitar does play in tune better but I've yet to fine any sysem that will make a guitar play completely in tune all the time.
Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Cannot imagine a guitar in complete tuning would sound very good, would probally be even more annoying than being out of tune.
Cannot imagine a guitar in complete tuning would sound very good, would probally be even more annoying than being out of tune.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
It actually does very little to correct the tuning, simply adjusts string length. As some of you know, straight frets across all the strings does not give accurate tuning on any string; their placement is mathmatically calculated, and is an overall average, but not tonally correct on most frets. It's the frets, not the string length that's the big culprit. There is no such thing as an in-tune guitar.
Check out the website True Temperament.com and they explain it in detail. They make a neck that corrects the frets on each string, which is as close to correct pitch as humanly possible, but is still slightly off. They also explain the best way to tune a straight fret guitar, which is not the way most of us have been doing it.
It actually does very little to correct the tuning, simply adjusts string length. As some of you know, straight frets across all the strings does not give accurate tuning on any string; their placement is mathmatically calculated, and is an overall average, but not tonally correct on most frets. It's the frets, not the string length that's the big culprit. There is no such thing as an in-tune guitar.
Check out the website True Temperament.com and they explain it in detail. They make a neck that corrects the frets on each string, which is as close to correct pitch as humanly possible, but is still slightly off. They also explain the best way to tune a straight fret guitar, which is not the way most of us have been doing it.
Lazarus1140
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
I think a good set-up and possibly a compensated nut should get anyone close enough. As random as my fretting pressure is there's a limit to how much I can be helped.
I think a good set-up and possibly a compensated nut should get anyone close enough. As random as my fretting pressure is there's a limit to how much I can be helped.
DavidRees
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
part of my curiosity that led me to having the system installed was the 'this is the greatest thing and my life has been changed forever' thing that publicised it - that, and with the apparent endorsement of the four iconic players above as set out in a number of magazine adverts at the time, led me to thinking 'well if they think it is great it must be'
wishful thinking and naivety on my part perhaps but I also notice that John Suhr is not setting his guitars up this way anymore, only offering it as an option - maybe issues of money and licensing are all involved? it would be nice to know - there are no perfect solutions but informed consumer choice is always welcome!
David
part of my curiosity that led me to having the system installed was the 'this is the greatest thing and my life has been changed forever' thing that publicised it - that, and with the apparent endorsement of the four iconic players above as set out in a number of magazine adverts at the time, led me to thinking 'well if they think it is great it must be'
wishful thinking and naivety on my part perhaps but I also notice that John Suhr is not setting his guitars up this way anymore, only offering it as an option - maybe issues of money and licensing are all involved? it would be nice to know - there are no perfect solutions but informed consumer choice is always welcome!
David
Lazarus1140
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Thanks for the link, Blueman. That was some great info on tuning:
http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4&sgo=0#A26
I rely so much on a tuner that I am lost without it.
Thanks for the link, Blueman. That was some great info on tuning:
http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4&sgo=0#A26
I rely so much on a tuner that I am lost without it.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Once you check out the link, you'll learn that the Feiten system is next to useless, which has far more to do with it's waning popularity than any money or licensing issues. It was a gimmick that claimed to solve a problem, and it doesn't come anywhere close to it. If the concept worked, it would have been done a long time ago by bigger brains than him. "Greatest thing and my life has been changed forever" is pure nonsense! The more people learn about tuning accuracy on a guitar, the less they take the Feiten system seriously. Like you said, "there are no perfect solutions" and the Feiten system isn't any kind of solution by any stretch of the imagination. That they paid a few endorsees to give it lip service should not impress you.
Once you check out the link, you'll learn that the Feiten system is next to useless, which has far more to do with it's waning popularity than any money or licensing issues. It was a gimmick that claimed to solve a problem, and it doesn't come anywhere close to it. If the concept worked, it would have been done a long time ago by bigger brains than him. "Greatest thing and my life has been changed forever" is pure nonsense! The more people learn about tuning accuracy on a guitar, the less they take the Feiten system seriously. Like you said, "there are no perfect solutions" and the Feiten system isn't any kind of solution by any stretch of the imagination. That they paid a few endorsees to give it lip service should not impress you.
Ayrton
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
From that page...
Tuning tips
1. Learn to attach the strings to the machine heads properly!
2. Never try to tune down to a note - first tune below the target pitch, then stretch the string, then tune up to the note. (To avoid problems caused by the "play" in 99% of tuning machines.) Make a couple of deep bends (you don't have to actually play the note, just bend it to settle the tension) then fine tune.
3. Before tuning a string that you suspect is out, check it against both adjacent strings! Many guitarists make the mistake of tuning the wrong string! Oftentimes you think your G is sharp when in fact it's the D that's flat, for example. I do sometimes, and when I watch other people tuning, it seems to me that they do too...
4. When tuning a guitar with a vibrato arm, tune the string, give the arm a good shake, stretch the string, give the arm another shake, and fine tune. On the plain strings I also like to bend the string a whole tone a couple of times (somewhere around the middle) before fine-tuning.
5. Listen for the beats!
Those who find it difficult to hear whether an interval is in tune or not have usually just not learned the trick yet. It's like riding a bike, or swimming - once you've got it, it's dead simple. Learning to listen for the beats is the answer. Play the two notes together - say the open low E string and the E on the D string at the second fret - and let them ring.
If they are not precisely in tune you will hear a tremolo (regular variation in volume) produced by interference effects. This is called "beating". Tuning either one of the strings will either a) cause the beats to increase in speed, which means that you are going the wrong way, or b) cause them to slow down and eventually stop altogether when the two notes are perfectly in tune.
From that page...
Tuning tips
1. Learn to attach the strings to the machine heads properly!
2. Never try to tune down to a note - first tune below the target pitch, then stretch the string, then tune up to the note. (To avoid problems caused by the "play" in 99% of tuning machines.) Make a couple of deep bends (you don't have to actually play the note, just bend it to settle the tension) then fine tune.
3. Before tuning a string that you suspect is out, check it against both adjacent strings! Many guitarists make the mistake of tuning the wrong string! Oftentimes you think your G is sharp when in fact it's the D that's flat, for example. I do sometimes, and when I watch other people tuning, it seems to me that they do too...
4. When tuning a guitar with a vibrato arm, tune the string, give the arm a good shake, stretch the string, give the arm another shake, and fine tune. On the plain strings I also like to bend the string a whole tone a couple of times (somewhere around the middle) before fine-tuning.
5. Listen for the beats!
Those who find it difficult to hear whether an interval is in tune or not have usually just not learned the trick yet. It's like riding a bike, or swimming - once you've got it, it's dead simple. Learning to listen for the beats is the answer. Play the two notes together - say the open low E string and the E on the D string at the second fret - and let them ring.
If they are not precisely in tune you will hear a tremolo (regular variation in volume) produced by interference effects. This is called "beating". Tuning either one of the strings will either a) cause the beats to increase in speed, which means that you are going the wrong way, or b) cause them to slow down and eventually stop altogether when the two notes are perfectly in tune.
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Many pro luthiers such as Eltham (Octavedoctor) and myself that know the math behind the tempered scale as well as the math behind string tension changes et. al. consider BF and similar "systems" such as Earvana nuts to be snake oil.
The primary "problem" that BF solved was actually one that didn´t exist and is the result of incorrect application of the physics and mathematics needed to devise such a system. It´s easy to solve a problem that in reality doesn´t exist :laugh2:
The most important issue is that, just like tempered frets, it only works properly in a few select keys, and the others become just that much worse. Combine this with the necessity for all stringed instruments in a group (be it a guitar and a bass, a 2 guitar /bass setup, or a whole orchestra) to use the same system, and it becomes pretty useless in a real world environment pretty fast.
It "works" to a small extent, but actually causes more issues than it solves IME.
The bottom line is that no (fretted) guitar, bass, banjo, other stringed instrument, or even piano for that matter will ever play perfectly in tune in all keys, and any attempt to make it play more in tune in any one key will make it more out of tune in almost all of the others. This basic and universal fact is defined by the laws of physics as they apply to any tempered instrument, and is not something that can be merely done away with by moving the end points of the scale around almost haphazardly.
I wanted to believe in BF when it first came out about 15 years ago. Despite my misgivings, I tried it a few times with an open mind and no agenda. The end result of that experience and careful study of the patent documents is that I´m 100% certain that it is a gimmick that sells more guitars, and definitely not something I´d want anywhere near one of mine
Many pro luthiers such as Eltham (Octavedoctor) and myself that know the math behind the tempered scale as well as the math behind string tension changes et. al. consider BF and similar "systems" such as Earvana nuts to be snake oil.
The primary "problem" that BF solved was actually one that didn´t exist and is the result of incorrect application of the physics and mathematics needed to devise such a system. It´s easy to solve a problem that in reality doesn´t exist :laugh2:
The most important issue is that, just like tempered frets, it only works properly in a few select keys, and the others become just that much worse. Combine this with the necessity for all stringed instruments in a group (be it a guitar and a bass, a 2 guitar /bass setup, or a whole orchestra) to use the same system, and it becomes pretty useless in a real world environment pretty fast.
It "works" to a small extent, but actually causes more issues than it solves IME.
The bottom line is that no (fretted) guitar, bass, banjo, other stringed instrument, or even piano for that matter will ever play perfectly in tune in all keys, and any attempt to make it play more in tune in any one key will make it more out of tune in almost all of the others. This basic and universal fact is defined by the laws of physics as they apply to any tempered instrument, and is not something that can be merely done away with by moving the end points of the scale around almost haphazardly.
I wanted to believe in BF when it first came out about 15 years ago. Despite my misgivings, I tried it a few times with an open mind and no agenda. The end result of that experience and careful study of the patent documents is that I´m 100% certain that it is a gimmick that sells more guitars, and definitely not something I´d want anywhere near one of mine
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Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
I have had very good experiences with the BF system and it in fact saved one of my guitars from getting sold.
Is it the best system for ALL guitars? No, I don't think so. But my BF equipped Suhr is among the best tuning guitars I've ever played. No problems here.
I have had very good experiences with the BF system and it in fact saved one of my guitars from getting sold.
Is it the best system for ALL guitars? No, I don't think so. But my BF equipped Suhr is among the best tuning guitars I've ever played. No problems here.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Did you read the tuning info on the True Temperatment link? Do that and then get back to us.
Did you read the tuning info on the True Temperatment link? Do that and then get back to us.
Ayrton
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Can anyone explain to me how a BF system is supposed to work on a guitar with a standard Floyd nut (eg Suhr, Washburn)?
I understand what BF is claiming with a standard nut, but where is the compensation with a Floyd nut?
Pondering that is what caused me to doubt the claims made by BF.
Can anyone explain to me how a BF system is supposed to work on a guitar with a standard Floyd nut (eg Suhr, Washburn)?
I understand what BF is claiming with a standard nut, but where is the compensation with a Floyd nut?
Pondering that is what caused me to doubt the claims made by BF.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Good point. And wouldn't the BF system really only 'work' on open strings? As soon as you fret a string, the nut's out of the equation.
Does the BF system acknowledge that with standard fret placement, some fretted notes are flat and some are sharp (even with the string "perfectly" intonated at the 12th fret)? No nut is the world can fix fret placement, which is done as a rough average for all 6 strings. If you look at a tonally-corrected True Temperatment neck, the frets are crooked, none are straight. That alone should tell you that the BF doesn't even begin to address real tuning issues.
Good point. And wouldn't the BF system really only 'work' on open strings? As soon as you fret a string, the nut's out of the equation.
Does the BF system acknowledge that with standard fret placement, some fretted notes are flat and some are sharp (even with the string "perfectly" intonated at the 12th fret)? No nut is the world can fix fret placement, which is done as a rough average for all 6 strings. If you look at a tonally-corrected True Temperatment neck, the frets are crooked, none are straight. That alone should tell you that the BF doesn't even begin to address real tuning issues.
richard parker
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Hi Blueman, we haven't spoken in a while. Although I'm not a longtime member of this group I don't think I've ever seen you be quite so scathing about a product (apart from Fender guitars and the JB pickup of course). I was interested when I first heard about the BF system but I haven't heard it mentioned in a long time. I took a look at the BF site and there's no-one endorsing it that I've ever heard of. I also took a look at the Tom Anderson site and they still use it on all their guitars. I've never played a Tom Anderson but I know they're considered to be top notch guitars so do you think they're gullible to be using this system or are they conning their customers into believing it's great when it's not and inflating their prices in the process ?
Hi Blueman, we haven't spoken in a while. Although I'm not a longtime member of this group I don't think I've ever seen you be quite so scathing about a product (apart from Fender guitars and the JB pickup of course). I was interested when I first heard about the BF system but I haven't heard it mentioned in a long time. I took a look at the BF site and there's no-one endorsing it that I've ever heard of. I also took a look at the Tom Anderson site and they still use it on all their guitars. I've never played a Tom Anderson but I know they're considered to be top notch guitars so do you think they're gullible to be using this system or are they conning their customers into believing it's great when it's not and inflating their prices in the process ?
Uk Ant
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Thinking about it the BF system only affects the nut and I can't see that helping very much in the intonation anywhere else unless coupled with the wobbly frets that Vai is so fond of. I can see that system as giving you more 'mathematically' accurate intonation all over the fret board if done correctly, but would only work for one given gauge of strings (as the diameter of the string affects the non vibrating element of a string which exists at each end and why we need intonation adjustment). Now I use the word mathematically rather than musical as the two are not quite the same.
Anyway, the one thing you can be sure of is that such system will not improve the tuning stability of your guitar.
If your nut is set wrong or you don't latch the string onto the posts well enough you can have the best intonation in the world and it'll still go out of tune.
Personally I play rock music and absolute accuracy has little to do with it.
We're musicians, not scientists.
And Steve Vai is a tad odd
Thinking about it the BF system only affects the nut and I can't see that helping very much in the intonation anywhere else unless coupled with the wobbly frets that Vai is so fond of. I can see that system as giving you more 'mathematically' accurate intonation all over the fret board if done correctly, but would only work for one given gauge of strings (as the diameter of the string affects the non vibrating element of a string which exists at each end and why we need intonation adjustment). Now I use the word mathematically rather than musical as the two are not quite the same.
Anyway, the one thing you can be sure of is that such system will not improve the tuning stability of your guitar.
If your nut is set wrong or you don't latch the string onto the posts well enough you can have the best intonation in the world and it'll still go out of tune.
Personally I play rock music and absolute accuracy has little to do with it.
We're musicians, not scientists.
And Steve Vai is a tad odd
ksmith63
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
Yamaha used to make a guitar with some sort of wave frets for (i think) frank gambale. Let me see if I can find a link....
edit: http://www.yamaha.com/guitars/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=60016&CTID=
Yamaha used to make a guitar with some sort of wave frets for (i think) frank gambale. Let me see if I can find a link....
edit: http://www.yamaha.com/guitars/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=60016&CTID=
Lazarus1140
New member
Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System
I don't know, but I thought the BF "system" included a set of tuning offsets in addition to any physical adjsutments to the nut or bridge. My Peterson tuner has one setting specifically for the BF system.
I don't know, but I thought the BF "system" included a set of tuning offsets in addition to any physical adjsutments to the nut or bridge. My Peterson tuner has one setting specifically for the BF system.
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