Buzz Feiten Tuning System

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Hi Blueman, we haven't spoken in a while. Although I'm not a longtime member of this group I don't think I've ever seen you be quite so scathing about a product (apart from Fender guitars and the JB pickup of course). I was interested when I first heard about the BF system but I haven't heard it mentioned in a long time. I took a look at the BF site and there's no-one endorsing it that I've ever heard of. I also took a look at the Tom Anderson site and they still use it on all their guitars. I've never played a Tom Anderson but I know they're considered to be top notch guitars so do you think they're gullible to be using this system or are they conning their customers into believing it's great when it's not and inflating their prices in the process ?

Always good to hear from you, Mr. Parker, my esteemed colleague. My beef with the BF system is that frets are 99% of the reason guitars aren't ever truly in tune (not string length), and BF touts itself as some kind of miracle solution. Does BF hurt a guitar? No. Does it solve all your tuning issues? No. Manaufacturers can put it on & charge for it. Why should they complain. Anderson's not gullible, it's marketing. Washburn used it too, on some mid-price imports, so it's not a rich man's game. What tiny percentage of players really know anything about tuning? Most think their guitars are perfectly in tune after a good set up!

Would I buy a guitar with the BF system? Sure. Would I pay extra for it or have it installed on existing guitars? No.

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I'm an authorized BF retrofitter (duck)
John Fornaszewski Music
Granite City Il 62040

What the system takes into account is the fact that originally nut placement doesn't take into account "end tension" or down pressure so when you fret a note the scale is completely off from the first note. Tune your guitar as perfectly as you can.......now try to play F "first fret on your low E"
80% of all guitars I encounter as a repairman play sharp at the first fret. Now set the guitar up properly and 40% of the same guitars are still sharp. So, after installing the BF shelf nut , takeing all measurements and grinding the overhang to tolerance you have a guitar that now plays 80% more intune than without it. From the first fret to the 5th fret. ( save room for human enteraction ie pressing to hard or soft like we all do)
Now we intonate the guitar to the BF pitch offsets ( some are slightly sharp, some slightly flat ) Tune all strings to there respective E note. ie High E open or 5th fret harmonic, B 5th fret, G 10th fret, D 14th fret, A 7th fret Harmonic, low E open or 5th fret harmonic. Now we have collectively borrowed "cents" from the Major intervals( our ears hear these and allow slight error) and gave them to the Minor intervals ( our ears hear these and tolerate NO or very little error)
After this final step the guitar will now play 88% in tune across the neck. If there where fret issues they would have been dealt with before the retrofit.

Locking Nuts are dealt with by removing the Nut and filling the holes then grind/routing the fingerboard end to tolerance and reinstalling the nut.


The guitar is an imperfect instrument and we as humans are imperfect. It would be stoopid to claim or think that any instrument or player can play in perfect tune everytime, and why would we want to infact. <----just play a keyboard if this is the case. LOL

But, the BF system does allow you to be closer than before and even makes playing more enjoyable as chords that always sounded off (and Where) are now closer to in tune and not nearly as annoying. My guitar sound fuller and more harmonicly vibrant than before the BF retrofit. Don't knock it until you've tried it. and it's completely reversable so you can even doit to your 50`s strat and keep the value<----try that with a True Temperment.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Actually I have tried it (with a Suhr) and from my uneducated point of view the guitar seemed easier to tune and stay in tune (that later obviously was because it was a suhr, not the feiten).

My only qualm with it is that it is not "compatible" with non-feitened instruments in that if I were to play in a band with a 2nd guitarist and/or bassist then if they weren't fetenized as well then we'd clash...

 

[GoDrex]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I've used the Earvana nut. It does improve intonation of the guitar. It's that simple. The only reason I stopped using it was because I didn't care for the quality of the material of the two piece nut. I would love to use the single piece nut that they make.

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Actually I have tried it (with a Suhr) and from my uneducated point of view the guitar seemed easier to tune and stay in tune (that later obviously was because it was a suhr, not the feiten).

My only qualm with it is that it is not "compatible" with non-feitened instruments in that if I were to play in a band with a 2nd guitarist and/or bassist then if they weren't fetenized as well then we'd clash...

why wouldn't it be compatable?

 

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I'm an authorized BF retrofitter... you have a guitar that now plays 80% more intune than without it. From the first fret to the 5th fret. (save room for human enteraction ie pressing to hard or soft like we all do).

How do you calculate "80% more in tune?" Are you saying that the first 5 frets are 80% more in tune, or all the frets?

Unfortunately manufacturer's fret placement throws off most notes. Guitars are slightly sharp for the first 4 frets, a little flat in the 5th thru 10th frets, fairly close around the 12th, and off again after the 15th. What can the BF system do to correct all this mess? Of the 132 fretted notes on a typical neck, how many can be brought into correct tune by a compensated nut? Seems like a lot to expect from a slightly different nut, when the whole fretboard is out of whack.

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I don't know "how" BF calculated it....I truly guessed as a number to iterate the point.

Guitars are slightly sharp for the first 4-5 frets....and is handled at the nut. the rest of the scale is brought closer intune by pitch offsets in open string tuning and intonation. So you have strings that are tuned afew cents sharp or flat but fret closer to intune than they had been prior to the retrofit. It's like tuning a piano...... if you tuned all notes dead on, no single key would sound properly( except maybe the key you tuned from) so they tune certain strings slightly OFF so they play more intune in more keys than just one. In effect it isn't 100% meter accurate ( our ears don't perseive tonality in this way anyway) but is 88% ish more accurate to the player and listener. It's a trick! your essentially leaning the ear to hear the tones closer to the tuned side than the out of tuneside, all music in effect is a trick of some kind.

I'm not trying to sell anyone a retrofit but it may be worth your time to go check out a guitar that was retrofitted by an authorized retrofitter and not one that was factory installed. the retrofitter will be more able to answer your questions and SHOW you the difference hands on. Rather than some music store goon who has no idea how to tune the thing properly. If you feel it's a waste then don't get one,but there is certainly enough difference for me to enjoy playing one. not haveing to tweak my tuning to play in A or D is enough for me. The difference of intuneness to me is as plain as tits on a goat.....LOL

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

why wouldn't it be compatable?

Because if two guitars are equally out of tune then they'd be in tune with each other whereas if one was tuned differently (not in a different key) then they'd sound more out of tune with each other, same as the piano example LuredMaul used.

 

[Top Jimmy]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I'm confused, I thought the Buzz system was the non-straight frets like Vai has on his one guitar, not just a nut system.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

The BF system is a combo of nut and intonation offsets, what you're thinking is the True Temperament system

 

[BluesGuyJ]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I have never had a guitar that did not stay in tune nearly perfectly. My PRS, Ibanez guitars, ESP, Deans and Gibson SG (most sensative guitar) all stay in tune just fine. A proper setup and fresh-ish strings go a long way. I hadnt played my PRS in 2 weeks and I took it out of the case today and it was in tune just fine. I tune all my guitars by ear, I can not read LEDs on tuners. I have found that tuning them to each other by 5ths works best, with open strings. Just listen for that wavering sound or is it called beats I think? It takes a while, but I can tune an acoustic much much better by ear than anyone I know with a tuner.

 

[GoDrex]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I have never had a guitar that did not stay in tune nearly perfectly. My PRS, Ibanez guitars, ESP, Deans and Gibson SG (most sensative guitar) all stay in tune just fine. A proper setup and fresh-ish strings go a long way. I hadnt played my PRS in 2 weeks and I took it out of the case today and it was in tune just fine. I tune all my guitars by ear, I can not read LEDs on tuners. I have found that tuning them to each other by 5ths works best, with open strings. Just listen for that wavering sound or is it called beats I think? It takes a while, but I can tune an acoustic much much better by ear than anyone I know with a tuner.

This are not about the guitar "staying in tune." It's about it being intonated better. For instance, depending on how you tune, certain open chords sound more in tune than others. If you tune so an open D major chord sounds right, then suddenly an open A major sounds a tad off. It's just the nature of the instrument, the way it normally is. Notes near the first fret often play a tad sharp.

 

[jimijames]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

This is why we should all learn to play slide.

 

[veryhungrycaterpilla]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I've used the Earvana nut. It does improve intonation of the guitar. It's that simple. The only reason I stopped using it was because I didn't care for the quality of the material of the two piece nut. I would love to use the single piece nut that they make.

I really like the Earvana nut. I'll dbl check but I think my Ltd H-500 has a 1-piece nut.

 

[veryhungrycaterpilla]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

This is why we should all learn to play slide.

Or a fretless guitar.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I have never had a guitar that did not stay in tune nearly perfectly. My PRS, Ibanez guitars, ESP, Deans and Gibson SG (most sensative guitar) all stay in tune just fine. A proper setup and fresh-ish strings go a long way. I hadnt played my PRS in 2 weeks and I took it out of the case today and it was in tune just fine. I tune all my guitars by ear, I can not read LEDs on tuners. I have found that tuning them to each other by 5ths works best, with open strings. Just listen for that wavering sound or is it called beats I think? It takes a while, but I can tune an acoustic much much better by ear than anyone I know with a tuner.

You don't own a guitar that's in tune up & down the neck, and neither does anyone else. Doesn't exist. A straight-fretted guitar has most of it's 132 fretted notes off-pitch. The BF system attempts to correct that, but there's only so much you can do with a slight adjustment at the nut. The True Temperament neck has curved frets fitted for each string, that will get you as close as humanly possible. Tuning by the 5th's can get you, at best, in the ballpark, but if one string is slightly off, you're perpetuating errors as you go. The problem is fret placement, and no tuning method or special nut can correct for that. As has been said, the first 4 frets are a little sharp, the 5th thru 10 a little flat, the 12th pretty close, and after the 15th it's off again. No matter how expensive your guitar or what tuning method you use, there's inherent errors all over the neck that you can't correct. All you can do is try to split the differences between the errors. Please, read the True Temperament website FAQ's, and you'll understand.

What we've come to accept as "in tune" is nowhere near correct tuning, but we're used to most instruments being off. When our ears hear something close, we're pleased. "In tune just fine" and all the frets being in tune on all the strings, are two very different things.

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Because if two guitars are equally out of tune then they'd be in tune with each other whereas if one was tuned differently (not in a different key) then they'd sound more out of tune with each other, same as the piano example LuredMaul used.

Naaaaah it just sounds like someone ...prolly the Singer stepped on your Chorus pedal ...........LOL

 

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

This is why we should all learn to play slide.

But most slide players are so sloppy; drives me crazy. A little goes a long way. How often do they hit the exact notes? And you can't bend strings and get those great sounds with a slide. Slide's nice for a little variety, but you have to know when to stop.

 

[MattPete]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Good point. And wouldn't the BF system really only 'work' on open strings? As soon as you fret a string, the nut's out of the equation.

Dude, you have not idea what you are talking about (and, no, the answer is not an A8 magnet). By moving the shelf nut closer to the bridge, this forces a change in intonation. My hunch is that it compensates for string tension due to fretting near the nut.

Sorry to be rude, but I've heard lot's of misinformation lately (none from Zerb). I've never used the Feiten system, but I can vouch that your explanation/understanding is utterly wrong.

 

[BluesGuyJ]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

arent we splitting hairs at this point?