Buzz Feiten Tuning System

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Dude, you have not idea what you are talking about. By moving the shelf nut closer to the bridge, this forces a change in intonation. My hunch is that it compensates for string tension due to fretting near the nut.

Maybe if you checked out the True Temperament website, you'd have some idea what you were talking about. Fretted instruments cannot be in tune up and down the neck, it's not scientifically possible. The distance between most frets is off. Look at a picture of a True Temperament neck; the frets wave all over the place. No nut in the world can come close to duplicating all those pitch corrections. The drawback with the True Temperament system is that they make replacement necks for bolt-ons, but obviously can't do that for set necks.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

arent we splitting hairs at this point?

Yes and no. This thread is about the BF system which improves some pitch differences inherent in straight frets. That brings up the proper pitch issue, the whole point of the BF system. And the BF system, while an improvement, can't correct most of the pitch issues on the 132 fretted notes on a guitar neck. So it starts to fix things, but doesn't finish most of the job, as fret distance is off on most frets; some are too narrow, some are too wide, and that varies by string. Some keys are more in tune than others. And changes in string gauge alter all this. A nut can't possibly fix all that chaos. Manufacturers put on straight frets because it's cheap and easy, and hope we don't notice.

When Gibson started making electric guitars, they had a Chicago university mathmatically calculate fret placement, because on acoustics, the highs didn't have much volume & it was difficult to hear if the intonation was right or not, so fret placement was fairly loose. Amplication changed that. But that system, while neat and tidy & mathmatically correct, is loaded with pitch flaws.

What we end up doing is getting close as we can, & living with a lot of notes that are slightly off. Some players don't hear them (the mercifully tone-deaf), but they're always there on every guitar. With or without the BF system, a guitar neck is a collection of incorrect pitches. We tune as well as we can with what we have, and we play. And we notice notes on certain strings are off a little, no matter what we do. Nature of the beast.

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j91xMJUDvFI&feature=related

 

[DavidRees]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

good evening! i did not realise i was causing so much grief amongst forum members when i posted- what i said before was it seems to help with certain chords but when you do anything else [like playing a melody perhaps] - lots of bending/vibrato involved it isn't the same as getting down and dirty with just making music - which surely is what we are all about
thank you for all your contributions
David

 

[MattPete]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Maybe if you checked out the True Temperament website, you'd have some idea what you were talking about. Fretted instruments cannot be in tune up and down the neck, it's not scientifically possible.

That's not what I said (i.e. being in tune everywhere).

You said it only affects open strings: that's mathematically not correct, as you need to reintonate after moving the point of the zero fret (e.g. installing a shelf nut).

 

[Tele-Bob]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

This debate always strikes me as amusing. If people are getting on well with their guitar and feel that the tuning is satisfactory, does it really matter how they get there?

Of my 17 guitars, some are BF equipped, some have nut compensation of sorts, some have Earvana, and many are just plain "factory standard." They all tune great. I have no complaints. It's all good.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

This debate always strikes me as amusing. If people are getting on well with their guitar and feel that the tuning is satisfactory, does it really matter how they get there?

Of my 17 guitars, some are BF equipped, some have nut compensation of sorts, some have Earvana, and many are just plain "factory standard." They all tune great. I have no complaints. It's all good.

What, you gotta start this up again? Geez. It's a matter of what our ears can tolerate; no one's guitars are really in tune. If they're 'close enough', that's fine, but all of us need to know that doesn't mean they're hitting the right pitch across the neck. It's an interesting topic guitarists should be familiar with, although we can never achieve the desired goal. To me, the lesson to learn from all this was the recommended tuning from the True Temperament website: all strings to the same note, and which frets on each string are the best to use for that. The traditional 5-5-5-4-5 fret tuning is pretty rough and almost guaranteed to be noticeably off as you play, regardless of how good the intonation is. It'd be nice if manufacturers were more candid about this, and took some steps to improve both their nuts & frets.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

It's pure BS.

i had the opportunity to examine Kee Marcello's "Feitenised" Washburn's at some length when he was recording over here recently. They didn't sound remotely in tune. I pointed this out to Kee. "Yeah" he drawled "I always thought they didn't sound right."

I'll be renewing my acquaintanceship with Stu Hamm on Monday. When I first met him, following a Satch gig in '95 or '96 we were walking back to the Marriott after a night on the town and he asked me if I could intonate his bass for him as it didn't sound right and his guitar tech couldn't seem to get around it. I agreed, but didnt get the chance as I was too wrecked the following morning :friday: to be of much use and he had to be off. I've since found out he has endorsed the Feiten system, which was a bit of a disappointment I can tell you, but we all know how these endorsement deals work. So, I shall quiz him about it (and maybe finally get the chance to intonate his bass!)

Oh. I almost forgot...

http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/Feiten_intro1/index.htm

Also ...

http://www.epinions.com/content_1397268612/show_~allcom

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Y
When Gibson started making electric guitars, they had a Chicago university mathmatically calculate fret placement, because on acoustics, the highs didn't have much volume & it was difficult to hear if the intonation was right or not, so fret placement was fairly loose. Amplication changed that. But that system, while neat and tidy & mathmatically correct, is loaded with pitch flaws.

This from a company that can't get the bridge in the right place on any of their guitars...

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Let's get one thing straight; there is a lot of talk amongst people about "true pitch" "true temperament" etc. Some of you are saying things like "guitars don't/can't play in tune". This is incorrect and all it does is muddy the waters for anyone trying to understand this complex subject.

There is no such thing as "in tune". The brain recognises certain combinations of waveforms which bear an integer multiple relationship to each other as sounding nice but these intervals are irrational and do not admit the existence of a single value for the smaller intervals such as the tone and semitone. Because of this, any instrument which uses notes of fixed pitch are unable to deliver these intervals. Some instruments, such as keyboards may be tuned so that they sound better in some keys but even then not all intervals of the same value will sound the same at all points in the instrument's register. The guitar and it's relatives in particular have a problem as the register of each string overlaps by considerably more than 50% which means that the instrument can't be tuned to a key unless each string has a different fret placement to it's neighbour. This, however, is self defeating as the guitar will be able to play in a particular key but in few others, and as all modern music is written for equal temperament the niche that that particular guitar might fill is hard to define.

Constant ratio fretting, combined with equal temperament tuning delivers a single interval of a semitone defined by the 12th root of 2 and makes all other intervals multiples of this. This means that some, notably the thirds and related intervals sound slightly dissonant because our brains are hunting for the perfect waveform meshing represented by the harmonic relationship between notes. Basically, a guitar sounds "in tune" when every note of a particular pitch value sounds the same as every other note of the same pitch value, regardless of the value of the intervals. An interval sounds in tune when the fundamental pitch of each note, all the difference tones and all the harmonics are synchronised and harmonic multiples of each other. The two conditions are mathematically incompatible at a fundamental level and the latter of these two is nearly impossible to achieve with vibrating strings because of a phenomenon called inharmonicity...

The problem isn't with the guitar, it's with the physics of music.

 

[DavidRees]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Octave Doctor - thanks for the contribution - after two years of trying it[during which time I've only been playing with other musicians occasionally] and having various sets ups, changed string gauges from 11s back to 10s, Pleked fret dresses etc, and purchasing the somewhat scary in use Peterson strobostomp I'm still not convinced or feel it has aided my musical confidence or performance. The overhanging nut is a bit of a beast which always seems in the way - may be time to change back get a well set up nut and just get on with the playing!
regards
David

 

[richard parker]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Mr Jones, thanks very much for this. I've just made myself very late for tonight's social engagement because I've been looking at your site and reading all the stuff about tuning and the Feiten system. When I've got a little more time I'm going to have a go at the recommended tuning method. I'm old enough to remember when electronic tuners first started turning up. I remember a friend showing me the first one I saw. He tuned his Strat with it and handed it to me insisting that it was perfectly in tune. It sounded absolutely horrendous but he refused to hear it because he had complete faith in his little machine. The problem was that the intonation on his Strat was WAY out. This guy was a pretty good player as well. I don't understand most of the stuff on your site but I've known for a long time that you can't tune a guitar perfectly and I could never understand Buzz Feiten's claim that he could overcome this. From the stuff I read I thought that at best he could just move the problem (as he perceived it) somewhere else, not solve it. I'm probably way off the mark but when I'm at a gig I do an initial tune up with a tuner because it's usually so noisy and then make my own adjustments when I get the chance. Generally I find that I like the G and high E very slightly flat and the low E very slightly sharp. Am I thinking in the right direction or just being an idiot ? Please tell me if I am an idiot - I don't have a problem with this as my wife generally makes this observation about me several times a day.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

- Some of you are saying things like "guitars don't/can't play in tune". This is incorrect.

- There is no such thing as "in tune".[/QUOTE]

I don't know if this is clearing anything up; you're contradicting yourself and confusing people (simpletons like me) right off the bat.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

OK I'll try to clarify.

It simply that there are different ways of defining what "in tune" means.

Our brains only recognise intervals whose top and bottom frequencies exist in perfect whole number ratios, 1:2, 2:3 etc. This is because harmony derives from the various modes of vibration of a vibrating system which can only exist in whole number divisions.

However it is not possible to create a scale of notes with fixed pitch values using these harmonic ratios; it's mathematically impossible.

The equal temperament system is now the de facto standard for all instruments which rely on having fixed pitch values for the notes. That includes the piano, organ and all electronic keyboard instruments. you would not however, dream of making the assertion that "pianos don't play in tune" because the piano is something of an aristocrat amongst instruments and tuning it is an arcane practice the skill of which is given to only a talented few. The reality is though, that the piano is just as "out of tune" as the guitar (actually more so), but you haven't been brought up on a digest of vapid and poorly researched "how to" books which copy and paste the same "pianos don't play in tune" comment along with inadequate explanations of why and how...

Proponents of pre-equal temperament systems often point to the superior harmonic consonance inherent in their chosen systems slavish reliance upon natural harmonic intervals but conveniently forget the drawbacks; the presence of wolf tones which made some harmonies unusable.

You see it isn't possible to create a scale in which all intervals are reproduced accurately. The easiest way to understand this is to try to imagine how you would fit three major thirds into an octave. A major third is represented by a step ratio of 5:4. The first two steps result in a combined step ratio of (5/4) squared = 25/16. Divide this into 2 and you end up with a final interval of 32/25 taking up the gap between the top of the second maj.3rd and the octave. But 32/25 is not a maj.3rd; it's a bigger interval, which means that it will be dissonant, and will exist between pairs of notes somewhere in the scale, meaning that the perceived perfection of a pre equal temperament system such as Just Intonation is illusory.

It is sometimes forgotten that equal temperament evolved for a reason...

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I have my #1 guitar set with an Earvana nut.

After I did that, the following first position chords sounded a lot better:

E - A - D

That's what a compensated nut does. And that's what it needs to be done in the guitar, specially in nylon-stringed ones. I still remember the anxiety build up in every concert I've done due to the constant adjustment of the tuning pegs WHILE I was performing due to the change of key center of the piece. Sometimes you hit it, most of the time you don't.

BTW, I'm cursed with absolute pitch hearing. Yes, it's a curse. It comes in handy when you wanna learn new songs, but most of the time it works like you just need to keep on telling all others what to play and/or being asked constantly, and a complete nightmare when playing unisons and/or riffs with horn and/or fiddle players.

Don't ask.

 

[richard parker]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Eureka - now I understand ! I don't need a new tuning method, just a new brain !

 

[Peter Crossley]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Great topic.
I remember watching Jeff Beck play many many years ago, and his Strat was soooo out of tune after the second song.
This didnt stop Jeff, he just used his wammy bar to adjust the pitch of each note he played.
He did it all by ear.
Very much like a violin player. You very rarely see a violin player adjust his tuning midstream in a tune, like you will quite often see a guitar player do,
They adjust their pitch to suit by slightly sliding sharp or flat to suit the required pitch,
I do this on a guitar by bending into the note. This only works if you are ever so slghtly flat.
I acheive this by intonating all my guitars and my endorsee's and pro players guitars slightly flat.
The reason here is that very rarely do you get a player that presses the string down at 90 degrees perpendicular to the fret, its always slightly sharp.
So an intonation that is slightly flat will allow for the players ever so slight angle of attack on the string.
Hey....

It works for me and the guys that trust me to set their guitars up for pro gigs.

Having a nut adjustment is right, providing you are playing cowboy chords, move past the 3rd fret, and all the nut adjustment in the world means SFA

If we REALLY REALLY want perfect pitch, and are either blessed or cursed (I hear you brother) to have it, then its a simple solution.

Go to your favorite luthier and say ....

"Make me a fretless guitar"

Added bonus here............... no requirement for fretjobs in the future.

Hard, Hard work though............. Learn how to intonate EACH note...no slop allowed.


In the interim. The guitars that we have known and loved have mathematical fret placement.
Ask these guys if they NEED something else

Jimi
Eric
Stevie
Django
etc etc

As a very famous, now gone freind of mine once said......

"Shut up and Play your Guitar".............

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I have my #1 guitar set with an Earvana nut.

After I did that, the following first position chords sounded a lot better:

E - A - D

That's what a compensated nut does. And that's what it needs to be done in the guitar, specially in nylon-stringed ones. I still remember the anxiety build up in every concert I've done due to the constant adjustment of the tuning pegs WHILE I was performing due to the change of key center of the piece. Sometimes you hit it, most of the time you don't.

BTW, I'm cursed with absolute pitch hearing. Yes, it's a curse. It comes in handy when you wanna learn new songs, but most of the time it works like you just need to keep on telling all others what to play and/or being asked constantly, and a complete nightmare when playing unisons and/or riffs with horn and/or fiddle players.

Don't ask.

Some first position chords will sound better, but others will not because any departure from the averaging effect of constant ratio will produce problems elsewhere.

Most classical guitarists are pretty picky about tuning but I have yet to see a single one that has needed to indulge in the nonsense of tempered tuning systems. This is something that is almost exclusively sought by guitarist who lack musical education and who are usually self taught (that's not aimed at you btw Kojak, it's just a general comment).


Generally, if a guitar has been properly set up, strung with the correct gauge of string etc, and properly tuned to equal temperament then the adjustments you have to make will be no different to the ones a pianist or keyboard player has to make and you don't hear these guys constantly moaning about the accuracy of their chords, but this is partly because they are relieved of the responsibility of tuning their own instruments.

I say generally because intonation problems will result from the way in which the guitar is set up and tuned and this is one of the "wild cards" that it's impossible to second guess.

I am now (apparently!) a Lowden endorsed repairer and one of the first jobs they referred to me turned out to be a guy called Barry Shiers who is actually the brother of the guy who taught me all my skills! Barry was having intonation problems on chords in the first to third positions when I saw the guitar I understood why. The guitar had a default factory set up and, as beautiful as Lowdens are, I can always improve on any factory set up. Basically the saddle and nut were too high and there was too much arc relief; to combat the stiffness in the action resulting from this Barry had simply put gauge tens on it. Barry's quite a big, strong guy and because of the high nut, and the higher than normal frets on that particular guitar, and the lightweight strings his grip was pulling the fretted notes in every chord sharp and this was particularly noticeable on the open G chords. So I gave the guitar a good going over; cut down the nut slots, straightened the neck to the minimum relief I could get away with and strung it with 12s. The difference this made to the intonation was nothing short of dramatic and the guitar was also easier to play. An Earvana nut might have produced an improvement but wouldn't have been a better solution in my view.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

If we REALLY REALLY want perfect pitch, and are either blessed or cursed (I hear you brother) to have it, then its a simple solution.

Go to your favorite luthier and say ....

"Make me a fretless guitar"

You got it.

In the interim. The guitars that we have known and loved have mathematical fret placement.
Ask these guys if they NEED something else

Jimi
Eric
Stevie
Django
etc etc

As a very famous, now gone freind of mine once said......

"Shut up and Play your Guitar".............

Nailed it there. QED bro.:yourock:

 

[DavidRees]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Dear Octave Doctor - did you get to meet up with Stu Hamm on Monday and if so did you get to speak to him about this and was he able to offer some insight
regards
David