Buzz Feiten Tuning System

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I did indeed meet up with him (I'll post the photos later) but we didn't have time to discuss the Feiten system as he was much in demand. If I'd been able to get into Bristol earlier I might have had the chance but I was messed around in Bridgend a bit so I didn't get to Bristol 'til late...

Maybe I'll e-mail him on MySpace or Facebook or something.

To be honest it was an uphill struggle to get him to remember our last meeting. As I recall the event encompassed the imbibing of a considerable quantity of firewater by all parties an I'm sure that he has met considerably more awestruck fans in the intervening years than I have met bass guitar gods. I can't even remember the face of a customer I met ten minutes ago...

The bass he was using though seems to be a standard Fender though; I didn't see any sign of the BFTTS logo or a shelf nut.

 

[DavidRees]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Octave Doctor

Thanks. The firewater has generally messed up my recollection of most of the last 30 years or so. As i have said in my earlier posts whatever I think I may be hearing may well be as much related to the money I have invested rather than any real harmony - and whichever way you look at it the shelf nut is an ugly beast
regards
David

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

The Feiten system.
I use,I like it and I'm also trained,certified and registered to retro fit it.

That would mean you have a vested interest in it's promotion then.

s it the end-all to be all for tuning?
NO.
Does it improve your tuning and intonation? Yes...

Just tuning properly to equal temperament does that

HOWEVER....(and I'm going to use small words here as every time I post about this a certain member who is a 'pro' luthier likes to type endless amounts of nonsense without paying attention to anything I say.Sorry if that's harsh I'm just sick of that members acidic words if someone says something different from them.)

Who's that then

Around the middle of the neck you will hear a bit more of a 'sparkle' in the sound.

Up sides:the above mentioned mid neck 'sparkle'.

What does that mean, exactly...?

Really it's no different than upgrading tuning keys or pots,(IMO).

Yes it is, because the manufacturers of pots and tuners aren't touting a load of poorly researched peudo-science in support of a modification that is fundamentally unnecessary

Now if you want to improve your tuning but aren't crazy about spending all kinds of $$$,(and you have decent tuners,a maintained guitar,decent bridge and a good nut) Google the temper tuning system for guitar.
It's what I use on my standard tuned guitars and it does the trick.
Just my opinion and experience,now I'll let the 'pro' step in a flame away.

Tempering the intonation is necessary to compensate for the effect of arc relief. I can explain this and offer a logically consistent rationale for it.

My objection to the Feiten system rests on the following observations.

It makes assumptions in support of the modifications it proposes which are not supported by either evidence or theory.

Much of the theory it does put forward is actually incorrect (q.v. Feiten's assumptions about "end tension" )

It is logically inconsistent in that it confuses Just intonation, Mean tone temperament, and equal temperament. It also rejects equal temperament while at the same time purporting to use an equal temperament instrument (the piano) as the standard by which it is measured.

Fortunately JohnJohn, I don't flame people for disagreeing with me, I just put forward the facts for consideration and let people make up their own mind.

 

[DavidRees]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

At the risk of displaying my hopeless naivety regarding commercial endorsements it does annoy me that according to the ads in many guitar magazines at the time four iconic players, Vai Satriani Ford and Carlton, whom are all highly regarded and respected by a great many not only for their guitar playing and musicianship but also for their inspiration, endorsed this system as the 'finally after x years my guitar is in tune' and are now not even referred to as users of the system. We look to these musicians for ways to improve our own musicianship and I for one feel a bit let down
Having kicked this debate off I am now going to have the shelf nut removed and new well cut one installed in its place and the intonation set back the old fashioned way and let my ears and fingers do the talking rather than the snake oil
regards David

 

[north]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I have been using the Feiten Tuning System for 12 years..It's an amazing concept that really works...It really makes your guitar sound much better and the sound is much more focused in my opinion. If you're serious about being in tune and your tone you should check it out. When I was first approached about it I thought that it was just some gimick. Once I tried it out I was blown away and I had it installed on one of my guitars asap....Now all my main guitars have it. I also have heard it on acoustic guitars and it's a whole new world there....I just saw Mauriel Anderson play in Nashville and she has the system put on all her guitars.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Intonation tempering - the skinny.

Read any of the "how to" books and you'll probably see the same procedure outlined or setting the intonation on the guitar.

This age-old and traditional technique involves using the 12th fret harmonic as a comparison for the fretted note at the 12th fret.

I don't see any reason to patronise the readership by assuming that they don't understand the basics of this procedure, but I'll summarize in a nutshell for the sake of clarity.

When fretting a note, the string is pushed down to the fret and the small gap between the string and fret results in stretching of the string. This stretching increases the tension on the string which puts the pitch up slightly and to compensate we back the sadle off a little way to lengthen the string and drop the pitch.

This offset is a fixed value for each string and, as such, it represents a logarithmically increasing percentage lengthening of the vibrating portion of the string;pretty obvious you might say, as at the first fret the theoretical sounding length of the string is about 605mm while at the 12th fret it's about 325mm so a 5mm offset is a percentage lengthening of 1% at the first fret, 2% at the 12th etc...

With a dead straight neck, this is fine as the gap between the string and frets widens continuously as you progress up the neck so the amount of compensation the string receives increases more or less proportionately.

However modern guitars use the truss rod to allow us to set a shallow curve in the neck to allow room for the vibrating strings excursion arc. By allowing the plane of the fingerboard to curve around the string's arc we can achieve a more comfortable action height in the higher reaches of the fingerboard.

The effect this has on intonation is dramatic, because the gap between string and frets no longer increases at a linear rate. As we move up the fretboard, the aspect angle presented to the strings by the fret plane starts out steep, but gradually becomes more shallow until from about the 12th fret on it is virtually parallel to the string. the gap between the string and fret no longer increases significantly between the 12th fret and the 21st, but the offset still represents an increasing percentage lengthening of the string.

The inevitable conclusion is that the string is being overcompensated if the string is intonated at the 12th fret and, indeed, if we listen closely we can hear that this is the case as the pitch accuracy becomes flatter fro the higher frets.

So, in order for the guitar to sound in tune above the 12th, we need to make some adjustments.

For the same reason that the string is being overcompensated at the higher frets, small changes in the value of the saddle offset have an increased effect on the pitch accuracy of the higher frets than on the lower ones, which gives us a little room for manoeuvre. By bringing the saddle forward slightly we can improve the pitch accuracy of the higher frets at the slight expense of the lower ones but, done carefully, the changes in the pitch accuracy around the 10th - 12th frets can be so small that they are not noticeable.

The process by which this is done is analogous to piano tuning in that it can only adequately be done by ear, by someone with the skill and understanding to achieve the required accuracy.

It may be that the Feiten system's intonation offsets are achieving a similar end however the tempering process, because it is done entirely empirically is adaptive; i.e. it will follw the differing requirements of slight variations in action height and arc relief that are required for different guitars and different players. The is no single rule for all circumstances, just a set procedure and governing principle. It also has the advantage, because it is empirical, of offering a measure of practical compensation for inharmonicity as well.

Now enjoy the hell out of this and ask yourself if you really give a toss whether this guy's Taylor has a compensated nut or not. (it does)

http://www.youtube.com/user/maneli#play/uploads/1/17y5Qtaix-w

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

The biggest problem with the system is people not installing it properly.

I beg to differ. The biggest problem with the system is that it has absolutely no coherent rationale or scientific basis, and I challenge any retrofitter to produce such that can't be pulled apart by someone with a basic knowledge of high school Physics and Maths

It's one thing to know the math,but there's a lot more to it than that in terms of installation.

and what is clear to me is the Feiten doesn't know the maths.

So far every defence of the system I have seen relies on subjective opinion rather than verifiable evidence. The problem with this is that, to quote Richard Dawkins, the brain has an enormous capacity for self deception. In a huge number of cases, if you tell someone with sufficient confidence and authority that something is going to make an improvement to something, they will perceive such an improvement. The effect is called the placebo effect and is a recognised psychological phenomenon which is routinely demonstrated in clinical trials.

So, I don't care how many people assert that it 'works" until I see a credible theory in support of it, it will not have any validity for me.

Still less so when you consider that the people promoting it most vociferously have a vested interest in exploiting for financial gain the widespread and commonplace ignorance of most guitarists about their instruments, and music...

I have no such vested interest. I oppose bullsh!t whenever I see it and I believe that educating people is more constructive than exploiting their gullibility and ignorance to make a buck. I get a lot of flak for this, but I always remember the words of a friend of mine who used to be a consummate con-man.

"Always remember, the con only succeeds if the mark wants to be conned..."

It's worth reminding people that the last time I looked, neither of the two important bodies in North America governing the craft of the guitar maker - GAL and ASIA - appear to endorse the Feiten System. Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know?

So choose your sides folks. Me, GAL and ASIA or the snake-oil merchants

 

[MattPete]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

A few years ago I did some calculations and figured that a shelf nut moving the nut a mm or so closer than the ideal* would help intonation issues near the nut (after reintonating). The logic being that the intonation compensation at the bridge needed for a slightly closer nut would help to make up for the increased string pressure needed at the first two frets. That's the same reason that a low cut nut is so important: it reduces fretting pressure needed due to a more extreme string angle due to the location of the first fret and the height of the nut. The shelf nut would force the first few frets (eventually dissipating as you moved beyond the first few frets) to be flat, at least until fretted.


* I think some guitar makers might do something like this. PRS?

 

[jhale667]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Interesting thread. :scratchch
I have one guitar outfitted with an Earvana nut (can't use the 1-piece ones as I exclusively use 1 3/4" nuts) and while I can hear a slight improvement in intonation in open chords and chords played up to say, the 5th fret, the one thing I (almost) can't stand about it is - something about the 2-piece design, the open high 'E' string sounds....weird. No other way to describe it. Kinda hate it. I'm actually debating replacing it with a regular synthetic bone nut. The slight improvement in intonation almost isn't worth it, and I haven't installed it on any of my other non-Floyd'ed guitars.
I know they've been toying with the idea of putting out Earvana Floyd Rose nuts, but after talking to them the chances of them making an R5 version are almost non-existent, as they're ridiculously expensive to machine unless the demand is there to do all the different sizes, and it unfortunately isn't...
But then, who's to say the high 'E' wouldn't sound wacky on that...?
I'd be interested to try out the BFS, but I'm hesitant because it's a destructive modification, particularly on a Floyd-equipped guitar.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

I have one guitar outfitted with an Earvana nut (can't use the 1-piece ones as I exclusively use 1 3/4" nuts) and while I can hear a slight improvement in intonation in open chords and chords played up to say, the 5th fret, the one thing I (almost) can't stand about it is - something about the 2-piece design, the open high 'E' string sounds....weird. No other way to describe it. Kinda hate it.

Well... if you can't define "weird", it's not that much we can do to help here.

FWIW, my #1 guitar, a late '70 MIJ 335 copy has the two-piece Earvana retrofit nut. The first string sounds fine, just like the rest of them. No "wierdness" at all. So, I don't think is something to do specific to the Earvana design but with your particular instrument.

Is this guitar you're talking about a single coil one? I had a problem with "weirdness" until I set the p'ups farther away from the strings. I was having a bad case of "stratitis" and being a HB guy I just didn't know what it could be happening, until I showed it to my Strat player friend. He recognized the problem and pinpoint the solution right away!

Live and learn.

HTH,

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

A few years ago I did some calculations and figured that a shelf nut moving the nut a mm or so closer than the ideal* would help intonation issues near the nut (after reintonating). The logic being that the intonation compensation at the bridge needed for a slightly closer nut would help to make up for the increased string pressure needed at the first two frets. That's the same reason that a low cut nut is so important: it reduces fretting pressure needed due to a more extreme string angle due to the location of the first fret and the height of the nut. The shelf nut would force the first few frets (eventually dissipating as you moved beyond the first few frets) to be flat, at least until fretted.


* I think some guitar makers might do something like this. PRS?

PRS and Taylor both use this as do many others, but the thinking is incorrect.

The strings feel stiffer to press down close to the nut because we are experiencing an increased vector component of the string's tension directed against our fingers, but it's not this that determines the increase in pitch; this is the effect of the strain applied to the string by being pushed into an increased string path and if the nut has been cut correctly this is always going to be less at the first fret than at the higher frets.

This (along with the failure to understand the underlying maths of tuning and temperament) is the key logical error in the Feiten System and in all other compensated nut theories.

There is a different fallacy at the heart of John and William Gilbert's theories.

(For the original tract go here, for my response exposing the fallacy, go here)

 

[jhale667]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Well... if you can't define "weird", it's not that much we can do to help here.

FWIW, my #1 guitar, a late '70 MIJ 335 copy has the two-piece Earvana retrofit nut. The first string sounds fine, just like the rest of them. No "wierdness" at all. So, I don't think is something to do specific to the Earvana design but with your particular instrument.

Is this guitar you're talking about a single coil one? I had a problem with "weirdness" until I set the p'ups farther away from the strings. I was having a bad case of "stratitis" and being a HB guy I just didn't know what it could be happening, until I showed it to my Strat player friend. He recognized the problem and pinpoint the solution right away!

Live and learn.

HTH,

Hmm...to try to describe it in more depth, it rings oddly, unlike any open string I've ever heard. At first I thought the nut slot was cut too tight, but then found out that was not the culprit.
It is on a traditional 3-SC Strat though...I'm fairly certain the pickups (specifically the neck one) aren't set too high - doesn't sound like a magnetic warble, but per your suggestion I'll check again....thanks. :scratchch

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

It's normal for some intervals to sound wrong and dissonant when an earvana is fitted because it proceeds from the assumption that the intervals in the chords need to be adjusted for the guitar to sound in tune. It will make some chords in the first position sound slightly better; particularly the e major, but nowhere else on the fingerboard will sound correct because it is mathematically impossible to reconcile the ear's need for natural harmonic intervals with the fixed pitch values defined by the guitar's fretting. The only way to make a guitar sound in tune is to respect the constant ratio of the equal temperament intervals.

The reason your open E was sounding weird is because the slot has not been correctly cut. It may be too wide, offering insufficient harmonic damping (similar to the problem experienced by Strats and Teles with no string tree for the g string), or flared, so that the string sounds from the middle or back of the slot.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

PRS and Taylor both use this as do many others, but the thinking is incorrect.

The strings feel stiffer to press down close to the nut because we are experiencing an increased vector component of the string's tension directed against our fingers, but it's not this that determines the increase in pitch; this is the effect of the strain applied to the string by being pushed into an increased string path and if the nut has been cut correctly this is always going to be less at the first fret than at the higher frets.

This (along with the failure to understand the underlying maths of tuning and temperament) is the key logical error in the Feiten System and in all other compensated nut theories.

There is a different fallacy at the heart of John and William Gilbert's theories.

(For the original tract go here, for my response exposing the fallacy, go here)

What about having other variables such as a zero fret, different scale length and string gauge?

As I was reading this, I remembered some of the more recent Red Special lore involving the zero fret. As some may know, the original zero fret was replaced around 2005 (after 41 years!!), and when they (Andrew Guyton and Greg Fryer) put in the new one, the guitar didn't intonate properly. After some discussion, they discovered that the original zero fret had a slightly modified 'leading edge' which impacted more positively on the guitar's intonation, and thus they were able to fix the problem.

Keeping in mind that the RS has a 24" scale and BM has used 8s at one stage but mostly 9s in his career, I wonder to what extent all these variables affect intonation as a package.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

There are many variables that can affect intonation, but the maths is the same for all of them.

Certain variables (e.g. finger pressure) are given far more weight than they deserve by the pro nut compensation lobby will vary not only from one guitarist to another, but even between different actions by the same guitarist. It is impossible, for example, to exert the same pressure with a straight barre as with a single finger or even a bent finger grip, so to factor this into the guitars construction is sheer stupidity. Gripping the strings hard enough to cause pitch distortion is really a sign of bad playing technique.

There is no difference in the maths governing the behaviour of string tension with a zero fret or conventional nut, however zero frets are bad juju for a number of reasons, chiefly poor harmonic damping, however manufacturers of cheap guitars favour them as they don't have to spend time cutting and dressing nut slots. The main problem with them is that makers such as Burns fit a much heavier fret for the zero than for the rest of the fingerboard, meaning the string height is always too high for comfort at this point.

Fylde also use them and the Fylde Caliban in particular has it so badly implemented that the guitar sound grossly out of tune all over the fingerboard.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Several of my USA Washburns have the Feiten system. I can tell a difference in overall clarity in tone throughout the neck with and without the system when they are tuned properly.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

There are many variables that can affect intonation, but the maths is the same for all of them.

Certain variables (e.g. finger pressure) are given far more weight than they deserve by the pro nut compensation lobby will vary not only from one guitarist to another, but even between different actions by the same guitarist. It is impossible, for example, to exert the same pressure with a straight barre as with a single finger or even a bent finger grip, so to factor this into the guitars construction is sheer stupidity. Gripping the strings hard enough to cause pitch distortion is really a sign of bad playing technique.

There is no difference in the maths governing the behaviour of string tension with a zero fret or conventional nut, however zero frets are bad juju for a number of reasons, chiefly poor harmonic damping, however manufacturers of cheap guitars favour them as they don't have to spend time cutting and dressing nut slots. The main problem with them is that makers such as Burns fit a much heavier fret for the zero than for the rest of the fingerboard, meaning the string height is always too high for comfort at this point.

Fylde also use them and the Fylde Caliban in particular has it so badly implemented that the guitar sound grossly out of tune all over the fingerboard.

Yes, I agree with what you say about the issues concerning nut compensation and finger pressure. It seems to be a case of excess engineering that in reality does nothing but enables the manufacturer to posture itself as exhibiting detailed knowledge about fixing a problem (promoted by advertising), which gets average Joe/Jane Plucker sucked in. Like you say, the whole placebo effect, which makes people think it sounds better or whatever. Part of it is also because people often don't like admitting they've been sucked in, so they may continue to maintain that it's a good thing.

Interesting comments on the zero fret. I asked because I have limited experience with them but see them on high end instruments like the various RS replicas out there made by independent companies, and, of course, Vigier.

Good thread overall, I think it should be vaulted.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Several of my USA Washburns have the Feiten system. I can tell a difference in overall clarity in tone throughout the neck with and without the system when they are tuned properly.

You see, here is where I have a problem with subjective evaluations. The Feiten system is about intonation accuracy, not "clarity of tone". It purports to deliver something that is actually physically impossible to do; the accurate rendering of both pitch and intervals. It's just not possible to shoehorn four perfect fourths and a major third into a two octave span without stretching those intervals. If we try to maintain the fidelity of the fourths we end up with a stretched major third and the notes being fretted either side of the third and second string sounding flat and sharp accordingly and all related intervals between those strings sounding wrong as well.

The key statement in the above quote is "when they are tuned properly"

All guitars will sound in tune when they are tuned properly; always assuming they have been built and set up properly in the first place. Unfortunately not many are. Certainly, the Washburn they gave to my friend Matt when he toured with Kee Marcello wasn't; it was so impossible to get in tune that he ended up sending it back to them and using his de-feitenised Washburn Idol.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Part of it is also because people often don't like admitting they've been sucked in, so they may continue to maintain that it's a good thing.

Yep, the "expectation" effect. You get the result you are looking for because you filter out the evidence that runs counter to your expectations and overvalue the evidence that supports your expectations. If you've spent a huge amount of money on a modification that you have been led to believe by people you trust (and this is where all the endorsements play their part) you are psychologically primed to believe hat improvement has been achieved.

It's not a conscious awareness of having been "conned"; I believe Buzz Feiten genuinely believes in his system and I believe that most of the people who have been sold it and those who are selling it genuinely believe in it but there is no coherent rationale behind it and no-one examines it for its logical flaws; they just accept it because, well, it's Buzz Feiten isn't it? And all these top guitarists use it! And it's got a US patent, so it must be right mustn't it? Noooo...:nono:

I always remember a few years ago a letter to a guitar mag from a guy who was having difficulty tuning his guitar. It was the usual problem, he was trying to tune it so that every interval sounded perfect and as he got one chord in tune, another was out. Well, if you've been following my posts you'll know why this can't be done now, but instead of doing his research into music this guy had just gone along to a music shop and said "there's something wrong with my guitar, can you fix it for me please?"

"Certainly sir" they responded "the gospel according to St.Buzz says that every guitar has it's nut in the wrong place. We need to kit you out with the proprietary Buzz Feiten Tempered Tuning System(TM) at the cost of £££"

Horrified, the guy had kept his money in his pocket and after learning that the BFTTS involved moving the nut about .030" forward, but without knowing anything at all about tuning or intonation offsets he proceeded to glue a bone shim to the front of his nut.

"Immediately" he claimed in his letter "my guitar sounded better; it now plays in tune all over the fingerboard and the problem tuning the B and G strings has completely gone!"

His claim to have "fixed" the problem is obviously as absurd as claiming that he has discovered a way to make 2=2=4.3, but he believed so strongly in what he had been told that he actually "heard" a difference.

The brain has an enormous capacity for self delusion; it's the reason we see the face of Christ in a tortilla and stage hypnotists can make someone believe they are naked in front of an audience.

 

[DavidRees]

Re: Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Octave Doctor, I really did want it to work, I really did. I put my trust in four musical inspirations who said it was so. I invested a fair amount of money in its installation [I think the purchase of the shelf nut before the cost of installation and set up was nearly £80 - clearly where there is money to be made] I chopped and changed this that and the other, got a Plek fret dress, even bought the Peterson tuner as tuning to 'all the Es' with my Intellitouch wasn't doing it - I even starting changing my strings more regularly.
Has it made me more confident in my playing and inspired greater musicianship - sadly no. I'm sure that when I think it's working and my playing sounds 'sweeter' it is purely the subjectivity of my brain realising how much cash I have invested and wanting it to be so. We are guitarists, we buy lots of stuff in search of something, sadly we are to use your earlier analogy, the 'mark'.
regards - david