Much has been written about the Fender Tonemaster series. Many have become converts ,ditching their tube amps along the way. They cant hear the difference. Should we now expect a TM AC30 &15 ? or TM '59 Marshall Plexi , JCM 800 ? or Mesa Rectifier? It comes back again to the tube v SS debate. It could happen , but somehow I feel tubes are not finished yet ..
Could all famous amp models become Tonemasters?
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Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Tubes will never be done but digital technology is making it easier to mimic tubes. It is naive to think we cannot digitally mimic a vacuum tube at a time when we can use AI to mimic the human brain. We can fly to the moon and back but the vacuum tube is the one technology that has baffled scientists and engineers. Yes, digital/solid-state can sound exactly like a tube amp but tube amps will never go away.
This is what I was thinking. It's a strange one. something to do with the way the electrons move inside a tube compared to what happens in a transistor. After many years of going solid state, Audio amps started incorporating tubes again. These are for people sitting at home listening to classical music & Jazz ..they swear they can hear the difference..
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As long as there is a demand for something, there will be a company there to provide. Still, I know young players that have played for 7 years and use only software and have never played through a tube amp (and are fine doing what they do). I love my Tone Master Deluxe (my back does, too), and if the idea of a single model vs a SS amp, I'd take the modeling every time (except Tech 21's stuff).
beaubrummels
Well-known member
It's digital modeling, so it's not a solid-state vs tube argument. "Solid state" is a physical circuit made of transistorized components, PC boards, with op amps and diodes replacing tubes and point to point circuitry. That's different from digital modeling where the modeling is trying to emulate tubes and the point to point circuit, and remove any actual physical circuitry from the equation.
Anyone who's stood in front of a tube amp pushing air and a modeled amp pushing air can perceive the difference. In particular, a tube amp sounds like a really nice amp, with punch and dynamics. A digital model sounds like a recording of a nice amp, even if you run it through a tube power amplifier. I'd rather put a microphone in front of an actual tube amp than a digital modeled sound coming through a digital power amp and 'custom designed for digital' speaker. Putting a mic that close to an amp is the same as putting your ear there - it starts to expose all the details of what's different.
Fender would have to tread carefully to enter into direct competition with Marshall, VOX and other brands, selling Fender versions of the same amps. Third parties have done that, in an equal opportunity plagiaristic way, but the big names try to avoid that. Marshall is based on a Fender Bassman, but Fender has never made an "M-flavored British Bassman" in response (that I'm aware of), at least not so overtly to hint they are copying something. I think they would be wiser to stick to their brand and push their own brand.
Anyone who's stood in front of a tube amp pushing air and a modeled amp pushing air can perceive the difference. In particular, a tube amp sounds like a really nice amp, with punch and dynamics. A digital model sounds like a recording of a nice amp, even if you run it through a tube power amplifier. I'd rather put a microphone in front of an actual tube amp than a digital modeled sound coming through a digital power amp and 'custom designed for digital' speaker. Putting a mic that close to an amp is the same as putting your ear there - it starts to expose all the details of what's different.
Fender would have to tread carefully to enter into direct competition with Marshall, VOX and other brands, selling Fender versions of the same amps. Third parties have done that, in an equal opportunity plagiaristic way, but the big names try to avoid that. Marshall is based on a Fender Bassman, but Fender has never made an "M-flavored British Bassman" in response (that I'm aware of), at least not so overtly to hint they are copying something. I think they would be wiser to stick to their brand and push their own brand.
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Sure but you are seeing more and more DSP finding its way into SS circuits via chips. As far as digital being able to move air the last time I saw RUSH Alex was playing through a MacBook Pro and it sounded just as powerful as when I saw him play Marshalls on the Moving Pictures tour.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Honestly . . . I don't care. If it sounds good, I'll play it. If it doesn't sound good there will be enough demand that I can get equivalent amps from elsewhere.
So far I have slightly preferred tube amps for the stuff that I do. The modelling stuff is getting better all the time though, can't rule it out.
So far I have slightly preferred tube amps for the stuff that I do. The modelling stuff is getting better all the time though, can't rule it out.
Masta' C
Well-known member
For me, the "Tonemaster" amps don't have many advantages other than being a bit more manageable weight-wise, potentially requiring less maintenance (assuming they prove to be reliable), and costing slightly less than the "tube" amps they are copying.
For one thing, they are still expensive for a "modeling" type amp, especially in today's world.
Also, the technology doesn't seem that "unique". I'm reminded of what Peavey did with their "Revalver" software, where each of the individual components were modeled to get the final "amp" sound. The Tonemaster appears to do something similar, except you're pinned to just one amp model, rather than dozens, for much more money.
In the Andertons Princeton comparison video below, the two amps did sound reasonably similar for the most part, but I could easily pick out the Tonemaster a majority of the time.
Furthermore, as soon as they stuck a fuzz in front of it (around the 14:00 mark), the Tonemaster completely fell apart! Makes me wonder how many people are shoving expensive pedals in front of these things and really missing out without knowing it!
I think Fender should collaborate with Boss on a Fender-only series of Katana-based amps that are designed to look and emulate classic Fenders.
Tubes will never be fully replaced. But great music can be made with any technology, being mindful of its respective limitations.
For one thing, they are still expensive for a "modeling" type amp, especially in today's world.
Also, the technology doesn't seem that "unique". I'm reminded of what Peavey did with their "Revalver" software, where each of the individual components were modeled to get the final "amp" sound. The Tonemaster appears to do something similar, except you're pinned to just one amp model, rather than dozens, for much more money.
In the Andertons Princeton comparison video below, the two amps did sound reasonably similar for the most part, but I could easily pick out the Tonemaster a majority of the time.
Furthermore, as soon as they stuck a fuzz in front of it (around the 14:00 mark), the Tonemaster completely fell apart! Makes me wonder how many people are shoving expensive pedals in front of these things and really missing out without knowing it!
I think Fender should collaborate with Boss on a Fender-only series of Katana-based amps that are designed to look and emulate classic Fenders.
Tubes will never be fully replaced. But great music can be made with any technology, being mindful of its respective limitations.
chadd
New member
Most of the people that buy the tube amps, want those tube amps. If you're going digital, you might as well go with a different solution that offers far more flexibility than a simple single tone from a digital amp. Especially once you factor in the cost of the other options on the market.
In a silent environment you can hear that a model sounds "different" than an amp, but if you compare five or ten amps and one model you will hear quite a difference between the amps as well. Once you put it in the mix, the differences become pretty much inaudible. Technology continues to get better and making it harder to hear the difference.
In a silent environment you can hear that a model sounds "different" than an amp, but if you compare five or ten amps and one model you will hear quite a difference between the amps as well. Once you put it in the mix, the differences become pretty much inaudible. Technology continues to get better and making it harder to hear the difference.
Masta' C
Well-known member
i actually dont agree with the mix part. a few guys i play with regularly use a helix and i pretty much always use my old dr. every sound guy says i cut through better. obviously theres more than just the amp involved, but theres consistency across three other players and multiple sound teams in multiple venues.
I used the term solid state as meaning transistors & PC boards rather than tubes...whether that be modelling or not, they use those components. As for DSP Marshall & Vox, I was implying that those brands may decide to do the same thing themselves, though I doubt Marshall will. They feel people want tube amps..
Masta' C
Well-known member
Marshall has been in the world of solid state and modeling for years now. I could see them creating an upper-mid tier of digital amps similar to the Fender Tonemaster series someday. I wouldn't buy one, but someone would!
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
The thing here is there is a comparison so in most cases we will make a choice. I think 99% of people that played the Tonemaster would enjoy it. Playing next to a tube Deluxe we all or most of us lean toward the tubes. Everyone is in awe of your beautiful Corvette until a Lamborghini pulls up next to it. All of a sudden the Corvette is just another American production car. And the crowd's attention shifts towards the Lambo.
chadd
New member
A lot of guys set up their modelers poorly. Then again, a lot of guys set up their amps poorly too. The biggest impediment to great tone from a modeler is the learning curve. I'd say the vast majority never do enough reading/tweaking to learn how to get the most out of their chosen product. That's why some people hate Mesa amps, you have to learn how to dial them in. You can't just plug in and go like a JCM800 or Plexi that doesn't have a ton of range
Masta' C
Well-known member
Did you listen to the section with the fuzz in front? The difference was striking (and not in a good way!)
beaubrummels
Well-known member
There's a nuance here I don't think is coming across - solid state, where every component is an SMD and no modeling involved, is the type of circuit that has the infamous brittle problem compared to tubes and was the genesis of the tube vs solid state comparison. Modeling on the other hand does a great job of near perfect tone and response replication without any of the famous solid state brittle-ness, so I would not lump modeling in the solid state comparison.
The issues with modeling are different, e.g. software updates, long term tech support, ruggedness and reliability, and the dynamics of the sound (the punchiness vs the smoother produced sound most modeling tends to make).
Regarding VOX and Marshal doing something similar, the VOX Valvetronix was the best Marshal emulation at the time it came out, sounded more Marshall than any new production Marshall at the time; VOX also had the ToneLab which I believe is the same engine in a pedal format, so they've already jumped that shark. You could almost argue Fender has finally caught up to the year 2002 and is trying to copy the Valvetronix with it's hybrid technology, except the Valvetronix still used tubes for the power stage (though now they use tubes in the pre stage and solid state in the power stage, which doesn't sound as good as the originals IMHO.)
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
I did and my first thought was if I dialed in fuzz for one amp, it is not guaranteed to sound good in another. I am sure I would be able to dial in that amp and fuzz box to get a good tone. I would also be willing to bet if I dialed in the fuzz for the Tonemaster it would not sound as good going into the Deluxe.
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