Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

[shredi]

I really like the TB5 I have in my guitar right now (maple/ash body, ebony board, 24,75 scale), but this forum got me really curious on the Custom 8. The problem is I can't find any Custom/C8 comparison clips. If anyone has one please do share. How do they compare in terms of output and tightness?
I played an alternative 8 many years ago, I didn't like how it seemed to have too much of everything (output, bass, mids, treble). And some people talk about "ear fatigue" associated with A8 pickups. I wonder if the C8 suffer from this problem at all?

Another question that I think I should just post here than creating another thread: the Custom is supposed to have more output than a JB, right? But the TB5 I'm using is less hot than my Antiquity JB, and sound brighter than I expected. Is it possible that it's underwound? How much tolerance from official specs can be expected on regular production pickups? Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter with me right now to test this out.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

If you wanna try an A8 in your Custom then try it! It sounds great. It'll round things out but still be hot and cut.

About the output: I would assume that a JB would be hotter than a Custom. The JB is 16.6k and the Custom is 14.1 but it has a stronger ceramic magnet than the JB's A5 so it closes the gap a bit.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

^ The JB uses thinner wire......the K reading for that wire is 17% higher just due to that. So take that 17% and apply it to the JB k reading to see what the effective K reading would be if it used the Custom wire gauge.
As we continually have to keep saying here.....K isn't output

OP - A mag swap is a very quick operation.....you can loosen the strings and do the swap in a short time. With 2 such strong mags the bed-in time will be limited too.

In these sort of cases I tend to play the guitar on the swap day for a good portion of time. You get very used to how the guitar sounds and can keep that in your head. You then do the swap and play again and see how you feel about the tonal shift.
If you want a more permanent or perhaps objective test then a recording can give you another perspective......or should I say a good recording will do that

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Ok Alex, whenever you want to enlighten me about a universal and accurate unit for measuring output, I'm onboard. I have both pickups and the JB is noticeably hotter like the dcr would indicate.

 

[gregory]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

The JB is voiced very differently from the Custom which can and will affect perceived loudness. This is inherent in the winding and can be best heard when each pickup uses the same magnet.

 

[Derpottsie]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

I personally own a custom 8 and many alternative 8 pickups. There's not much difference in sound except for the alt8 being much hotter and very percussive. Id roll with the alternative 8 before turning a custom into and custom 8 unless you don't want it to be hotter than the JB. Alt8 reads in around 17k and the custom 8 reads around 14k. But for the most part they both have tight low ends and rolled off high ends with a punchy mid range

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk

 

[AlexR]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

As Gregory has stated, you cannot take the wind out of the equation.....in fact the wind is everything.
Hotness can also be the guitar, the amp and speaker having a synergy. The very combo that works well in one setting could fall flat in another.

As an example I have had a 10k 42 awg pickup be 'hotter' than the jb in the same guitar. It just worked better with what that guitar was giving back.

In which case the point is still the same......K doesn't equal output.

 

[stef89]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

To my ears the custom 8 sounded more "metallic" compared to the custom. Thats the only way I can describe that pickup.. Sterile sounding.

The SH-5 has way more warmth and character to it wich is strange since its a ceramic.

Custom 8 has a tighter sound IMO really tight low end awsome for downtuning (Huge downstroke palm mutes). I would go so far as to call the custom 8 a modern metal pickup.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

As Gregory has stated, you cannot take the wind out of the equation.....in fact the wind is everything.
Hotness can also be the guitar, the amp and speaker having a synergy. The very combo that works well in one setting could fall flat in another.

As an example I have had a 10k 42 awg pickup be 'hotter' than the jb in the same guitar. It just worked better with what that guitar was giving back.

In which case the point is still the same......K doesn't equal output.

Since we're getting all scientific, your story about a 10k pickup being hotter than a JB would be called an "outlier" in statistics and does not mean "k doesn't equal output." If that statement were true, one could expect to find a 3k pickup hotter than a 20k pickup on occasion. Good luck with that. I think a much more accurate statement would have to be "k is a reasonable approximation of output", but that other factors such as magnets and wire gauge can change how loud the pickup sounds from what the dcr would suggest.

The biggest discrepancy I've ever had between k and output was the quarter pound and custom strats. The flat qp is listed as 13.4k while the customs are listed at 13.3k. However, the qp is several notches louder than the custom. I have never had a pickup sound louder than any pickup that read higher k than it before though.

 

[gregory]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Patent-free DiMarzio Pickup selections ordered in increasing DCR:

Super 2:
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 400
DC Resistance: 8.7 Kohm
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/2118

Steve Morse Bridge:
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 450
DC Resistance: 9.94 Kohm
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/2174

Transition Neck:
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 258
DC Resistance: 10.23 Kohm
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/8105

Super Distortion:
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 425
DC Resistance: 13.68 Kohm
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/2114

D Activator-X:
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 500
DC Resistance: 14.51 Kohm
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/2189

X2N:
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 510
DC Resistance: 15.83 Kohm
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/2116

Super 3:
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 435
DC Resistance: 25.00 Kohm
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/2138

 

[gregory]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

You can also order Duncan humbuckers in descending output using their "sort by" option*.

Here's a sampling of trembuckers from hot to cold (I left out the PATBs, Full Shred and P-Rails for obvious reasons, though I did include the Screamin' Demon). EDIT: Let's go ahead and include the Full Shred with its two rows of short hexes:

JB Trembucker
DCR:17.4K
Magnet:Alnico 5

Full Shred Trembucker
DCR:14.8K
Magnet:Alnico 5

Custom 5 Trembucker
DCR:14.8K
Magnet:Alnico 5

59/Custom Hybrid Trembucker
DCR:11.7K
Magnet:Alnico 5

59 Trembucker
DCR:8.5K
Magnet:Alnico 5

Jason Becker Perpetual Burn TB
DCR:13.1K
Magnet:Alnico 5

Pegasus Trembucker
DCR:12.6K
Magnet:Alnico 5

Screamin' Demon Trembucker
DCR:10.9K
Magnet:Alnico 5

http://www.seymourduncan.com/pickup...r&taxonomy=pickup-types&order_by=output_range

(*) YMMV.

 

[gregory]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

We can have a look at a selection of Alnico II pickups from hot to cold:

Pearly Gates - bridge
DCR:8.1K

Slash - bridge
DCR:8.9K

Pearly Gates - neck
DCR:7.3K

Alnico II Pro HB - bridge
DCR:8.4K

Alnico II Pro HB - neck
DCR:7.5K

Seth Lover - bridge
DCR:8.3K

Stag Mag
DCR:16.6K

Seth Lover - neck
DCR:7.4K

 

[AlexR]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Since we're getting all scientific, your story about a 10k pickup being hotter than a JB would be called an "outlier" in statistics and does not mean "k doesn't equal output." If that statement were true, one could expect to find a 3k pickup hotter than a 20k pickup on occasion. Good luck with that. I think a much more accurate statement would have to be "k is a reasonable approximation of output", but that other factors such as magnets and wire gauge can change how loud the pickup sounds from what the dcr would suggest.

The biggest discrepancy I've ever had between k and output was the quarter pound and custom strats. The flat qp is listed as 13.4k while the customs are listed at 13.3k. However, the qp is several notches louder than the custom. I have never had a pickup sound louder than any pickup that read higher k than it before though.

As we have discovered before, your experience is limited and you have a great deal of resistance/stubbornness to considering other people's experience to be valid. It has already lead you to numerous very embarrassing assumptions/conclusions.
Gregory has very kindly done the legwork for you above. I wish you good luck with your correction.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

That is called an AD HOMINEM fallacy which you repeatedly use against me and is against forum policy. An ad hominem fallacy means you attempt to attack the character of the person you're arguing with rather than the argument itself.

Very interesting how you alternate between strict scientific method and then asserting that your opinions are true. I'm open to evaluating your research where you test and record more than 1 isolated instance where a pickup with lower dcr sounds louder than one with higher dcr, that would prove your ordinance of "k doesn't equal output" is true.

I wish you good luck with your mental reconciliation process.

 

[Chad]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

That is called an AD HOMINEM fallacy which you repeatedly use against me and is against forum policy. An ad hominem fallacy means you attempt to attack the character of the person you're arguing with rather than the argument itself.

Very interesting how you alternate between strict scientific method and then asserting that your opinions are true. I'm open to evaluating your research where you test and record more than 1 isolated instance where a pickup with lower dcr sounds louder than one with higher dcr, that would prove your ordinance of "k doesn't equal output" is true.

I wish you good luck with your mental reconciliation process.

Do you not see the numerous examples that gregory provided?

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Did you not read my statement? Where I said dcr is a "reasonable approximation of output" and not an 100% accurate indication of output.

And did he personally A/B a 59 with a Jason Becker?

 

[chadd]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

To my ears the custom 8 sounded more "metallic" compared to the custom. Thats the only way I can describe that pickup.. Sterile sounding.

The SH-5 has way more warmth and character to it wich is strange since its a ceramic.

Custom 8 has a tighter sound IMO really tight low end awsome for downtuning (Huge downstroke palm mutes). I would go so far as to call the custom 8 a modern metal pickup.

I found the C8 to be harsh on the high end, similar to my results with an A8 demon. It would be great for drop tuning, but it's just not my bag.

 

[gregory]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

Regarding DCR, I think we can all agree that within limits, the greater number the turns the higher the perceived output and the higher DCR assuming the same wire, winding pattern, tension, magnet, bobbins, pole pieces and everything else imaginable held constant. I would suggest that these limits could be defined at the regions where the resonant peak falls into an area where the ear becomes increasingly more or less sensitive. I have no idea whether these boundaries are reached with commercially available pickups, and if so which ones. To be honest, I would be surprised different resonant peaks in commercially available pickups didn't fall within a critical area of changing sensitivity and didn't play a large role in the perceived loudness, but I haven't done the research.

What I will say is once you begin to overlap DCR with different wire type and gauge, ALL BETS ARE OFF! At this point, you can and will find discontinuities in resonant peak and likely Q factor as well. This could account for someone finding the Full Shred to be louder than a JB, or a 59 to be louder than a Screamin' Demon.

I know very little about how the various models I listed are made, though several members have done a great deal of code-cracking with some of them. Specifically regarding some of the vintage output models. More specifically, the PAF variants vs. the Jazz/APH wind. If I am to believe what I have read, the Jazz/APH bobbins are not as full as PAF bobbins of the same DCR and if the Jazz/APH is scatter-wound, I would expect them to have a lower TPL. These two criteria make a compelling case that the Jazz/APH coils use finer wire than the 42 AWG PE found in PAF coils. I've seen it suggested that they are 0.060 mm, which is commonly called "42.5 AWG". With this in mind, I'm not at all surprised to see an 8.4k APH-1b being ranked lower in output than a 7.3k SH-PG1n. I would not consider these outliers.

Then there's still that critical interaction between a pickup and your guitar, EQ-ed gain stages and speaker where there may or may not be synergy, as was pointed out earlier. I've experienced it where pickups can just sound off in one guitar but not another, though I've thought about it in terms of what is tonally pleasing, but can definitely see how it could translate into raw and measurable output.

And full-disclosure: I definitely wouldn't stake my life on Duncan's sort by output option.

Sorry about the edits.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

dcr is a "reasonable approximation of output" and not an 100% accurate indication of output.

It's not even close to be "reasonable". But it's pretty darn close to be "misleading".

So, Clint, buddy; you like it or not, you're still wrong and that's what the nice people of the forum is trying to tell you, but seems to be falling on deaf ears.

HTH,

 

[gregory]

Re: Custom vs Custom 8 thoughts?

I think we've all used it as at least a rough approximation at one point in time or another. I know I have and I still do.

One saving grace is that my interests are shifting toward pickups where DCR is becoming increasingly meaningless such as those that are noiseless and stuff DiMarzio has patented.