GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Dear pick-up wizzards . . .


. . . here is a Gibson Pick-up question !

Can anyone please explain to me, (as if i am a 3 year old), "what is the diff's" between the Gibson "'57's" & the "Burstbuckers" . . . PLEASE !!!

* Tonal-wise
* Out-put
* ...and anything lse you can think off !?


I listened to the samples on their site.
My laptop is connected to a Technics Hi-Fi.
So, when i listen to the clips, over the speakers, the Burstbuckers sounded soo nice, BUT, over the Expensive Sony headphones, the 57's sounded much better . . . aghrrrrrrrrrr !

I know it is not SD-related, but i want to get GIBSON pu's for my Epi. LP Gold Top.

I play 70's classic rock - Zep, Skynyrd, Mountain, and what not !
I am also running it thought a Blues Jr. (with the odd pedal ot two)


THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH !

 

[strangegrey]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

I'm sure you can read this at the technical stuff over at gibson.com, but the Burstbucker is made up of 2 coils of different winds...whereas the 57 is 2 coils of the same wind....

The idea is that the burstbucker has one coil that is wound less or more than the other, since in the old days they just wound the coils until they were loaded...not really concerning themselves with wind counts...or at the very least, acurate wind counts.

Seymour has been doing this for years before Gibson made this 'ground breaking discovery' with the burstbuckers. The PG is an uneven wind pickup...and I'm sure there are guys here than can give you alot more info regarding the PG than I can.

I cant comment on the 57s as I haven't had the chance to hear one...however, I can say that I FINALLY got rid of the Burstbuckers in my 02 LP Standard...and I couldn't be happier...and this is coming from a guy that hasn't even wired in the PGn I've got slated for the guitar. The burstbuckers, as you will read, are overpriced...and you can do far better by the plethora of SD choices out there.

If you have to be using Gibsons, I would try the 57s, as they seem to have higher regard...but there are plenty of options with SDs....a Pearly Gates set should do you nicely, given what you play.

-Frank

 

[ErikH]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

I had someone on another board ask me the same thing. JeffB was kind enough to write up the following. Here's what he had to say:

BurstBucker 1 / 2 combo: Are probably THE classic Les Paul tones. Think Paul Kossof. Gary Moore’s les paul tones. Early Aerosmith. Jimmy Page. Duane & ****ey. Billy Gibbons. They are Alnico2 mags with mismatched winds. They are pretty smooth, full, have a slightly loose low end, very good(but not overbearing) bite and a top end “fizz” or “sizzle” (but not a bad “fizz, like a SS amp). They also have a prominent nasally “honk” to them. Very organic, “fat” sound. Great for classic rock/blues/jazz, and perform admirably well for harder rock, though they are not optimum for that style cos they are not quite so “tight” under high gain. Good mix of warmth and aggression. It’s not an 80s metal pickup by any means. Aftermarket BB1/2/3 are NOT wax potted. Those that come already intalled in Gibson guitars ARE wax potted.

BurstBucker Pros: Are an Alnico5 magnet version with uneven winds and wax potting. They are NOT the same wind though with just a magnet swap. They are entirely differently EQ’ed for more versatility with modern type tones... It’s a “crunchy” pickup with less low mids and more high mids, plus has the uneven wind “sizzle”…not nearly as smooth even toned or warm as the A2 Bursts. Not particularly fat or “full” sounding. It handles palm muting and such a lot better. It sounds more like a bridge or gap pickup between a “vintage” style and a modern high output pickup, though the output level is still “vintage”. I find they sound best set low in the rings. Get your gain with the amp. Close to the strings they get harsh. I cannot give any sound examples because basically in “vintage” terms this pup did not exist. By the time Gibson started using A5 mags exlusively around 1960, they had tightened up QC as well, and thus there weren’t any “accidents” like the uneven winds (which were just human error and lack of precision..not intentionally done for tone purposes). Classic even wind A5 tones however would be Angus Young on Back In Black, or Claptons work with Cream..but the BB pros def do not sound like that.

57 Classics are another strange beast, but not in a bad way. They are meant to be direct copies of the original 57 PAFs (duh) at least how they were DESIGNED (i.e. no accidents like mismatched winds). They are A2 mag with even winds, and are wax potted. But the “strangeness” comes into the fact that they exhibit properties of both A2 and A5 mags. They are full/mid focused like A2 typically is and have a “spongy” feel (as do the BB 1-2). However the low frequencies are tighter than any other A2 mag pickup I’ve experienced..more like A5..they are better for higher gain than the BB 1-2 because of this. They have none of the nasally honk or top end bite/sizzle of the BB 1-2.For lead work they have a very “singing” like quality. Especially in the neck. I have a hard time describing these cos it’s something that was supposed to exist but not many people got any pickups that were actually LIKE this back then. I would saya good example would be Ted Nugent’s classic era…Stranglehold era….He had them in a Byrdland and not a Les Paul, but that’s a good example of the tone. Def Leppards High and Dry album would be a very good example too. Also perhaps Rush’s “Working Man”. Though Alex probably had A5 pickups, the 57 Classic has some A5 character in it’s tightness. It’s not as aggressive as the BB Pro, nor do they have as much organic qualities or “personality” as the BB 1-2. I LOVE these pickups but they are tough to categorize cos they kinda break the rules of how they *should* sound based on their specs/design.

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

Both these guys gave you the good technical info, now I'll sum up what that means IMO.

57 = Smooth

BB = Grit

 

[Jazz Rock]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

Wow! Impressive little description you got here. Is it after years and years of guitar practice you are able to put words on sounds like this or do you need a certain gift.

Sorry ti hi jack a bit but how would you ErikH (or JeffB) compare the BB pro to the 490R and 498T? Because I thought they were suppose to be a bridge between the vintage and hi output modern word.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

498T is like a c5 with more mids. Think of something in between JB and c5. It is quite a good pickup I think, but have to confess that I am not into that medium output pickup thing anymore. I'll take PAFs or very hot pickups like an invader.

490T I feel is quite different than a BB#1 in the neck. It is thicker, rounder, but can be less clear, and boomy. But in the right guitar I think it is quite a good pickup. Especially in a guitar that lacks bass and needs warmth. That's why people hated them in Gibson LPs. I think that it is an ideal pickup for a SG neck position.

Burstbuckers (non a5's) are somewhat thinner than the others that were mentioned here. The reason is that burstbuckers have the screw coil hotter than the slug coil. In PGs it is just the reverse. Therefore, when you encounter many who hate their burstbuckers due to getting a thin tone out of their LPs, don't be surprised at all. BBs would be the last pickup I would try on a SG. BUT in a very thick sounding guitar, or in a dark guitar, they really do work great. Have used 3 sets, now keep 2 of them and sold the third one. I dare say that among the ones I have tried BBs are the most clear a2 PAF clones I have seen. Great pickups when matched with the right guitar.

Burstbucker 5's: I did not know that the wind was different. I had a set (sold it) and it was wound by somebody with initials P.S. and at the same time I had a BB1 BB2 set wound by the same person. I dunno, I trust what I am reading here, it is just that it was a surprise for me. Anyways, BBs (a2s) are not that thick anyways. Therefore, it does make sense to use a different wind for a BB5 bridge especially. I have to confess that I hated the BB5 neck that came stock in my 04 standard. I absolutely hated it. Changed it right away with a timbucker neck. Anyways, I liked the bridge pickup tho. In that guitar it did not sound thin, or brittle. It sounded alive, with all them eqs well in order. I cannot comment more on the bridge pickup because I did not use it in other guitars, I sold it before doing that.

57: Had a pair that came stock in a 01 R8 which I could bear only for a month. I mean the guitar. My 95 standard was killing it big time. R8 had nice flame and all, but did not have the tone. So I sold it with them pickups. LAter I got a set of 57s. But them too did not last long. I did not like them, I remember thinking that they sounded somewhat metallic. I cannot comment more, because I don't remember how they sounded like, I just remember getting rid off them because of that reason. So you shouldn't base your evaluations on that report!

Burstbuckers are quite cool in my book. And I don't think that there is an equivalent Duncan giving their tone. Seths are rounder, ants are clearer but not that edgy, a2ps are rounder, PGs are close yet thicker, ... (a3 antiquity neck gets as close as I could get with a duncan pickup) BB5 bridge is a good pickup too. But I'd go for a hot 59b or a a5 modded antiquity bridge.

Hope that helps,

B

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

BUGGER ME . . .


. . . thanx to all for getting this fantastic info to me in such a speedy fashion !

The reason i thought of getting some true Gibbo pu's was to try and make the Epi more of a ("real"?) High-end Les Paul.

I read alot about the Seth's from SD, and i understand they are a fair bit cheaper too.
A few months ago i had my eye on a 59' (b) / Jazz 'or' Pearly Gate - combo. That was before i thought of the Gibson route !

Now i am just confused . . .


. . . any thoughts ?

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

I remember really liking the BB1/BB3 combo I played in a distressed 68 Black Beauty RI. I remember them being clear and throaty with a nice vocal lead tone.

I must say though, for my money, nothing beats a Pearly Gates set in a LP.

 

[doveman]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

Check the pots too ... I found out after changing many pickups over the years, that the pots make a serious difference. I like 500k in humbucker ... some even go to 1meg. In fact, even though most people recommend 250k for single coil, I like 500k more. They really brighten up the sound for both types of pickups.

 

[ErikH]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

I've never A/B'd the 490/498 to the BB's myself so I cannot say for sure. I just passed on what Jeff's opinions are on the BB's and 57's. Looks like dr.barlo covered it pretty well.

 

[strangegrey]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

Yeah, this is an issue to keep in mind...the Burstbuckers come in guitars from Gibson, loaded with 300k pots. I've done the upgrade to 500k pots thing in my Les...and the desired effect (more clarity) was at the expensive of girth....and I eventually returned to 300k pots, declaring it a failed experiment. I don't think you'll have the same problem with any of Seymour's offerings, as I believe all his bucker pickups are designed to run at 500k pots...some will argue a JB needs a 250k pot (im not one of them)...however, that's not key to this particular discussion.

Someone on the LP forum summed it up perfectly with the Burstbuckers....in that they were marketted by a handful of geniuses. The pickups look like the second coming on paper...combine that with Gibson's ability to charge (and get, dont ask me why!) $20-$50 more per pickup than Dimarzio or Duncan....and you have a pickup that generated a serious amount of buzz when they came out....both in stock guitars and in aftermarket form.


I have a fairly strong hatred for the BB Pro. Sorta like how someone feels when they've gotten ripped off. You know it's your own fault for keeping your wallet in the back pocket....but you still resent the jerk that took it. When I bought my LP in 02, I really tried to like the pickups, given all the schmoozing that was written about the burstbucker Pros...but I couldn't...in fact, I hated em so much that I tore out the pups a year later and put in a 498T/490R set that I found on ebay for 50 bucks...which was a HUGE improvement.

Here's where I grow resentful....a year or two afterwards, I looked at my nicely aged parts on the LP and the mirror chrome covers on the 498T/490R set...and was not happy with the way the guitar looked...even though it sounded fine. I then started reading literature about pickups and got SUCKED in by Gibsons propaganda regarding the BB Pros....EVEN THOUGH I already had em and sold em.....I went out and spent Gibson's rediculous prices for a new set...

Then spent the next 2 years going "Hey it might not sound good, but it's back to stock!!" Which was loosely translated to "The guitar sounds like crap and I'm trying to make myself feel better for being a dumba$$ and succumbing to Gibson's scam for the second time"


I'm sorry if I sound to negative on the whole Burstbucker thing...I've tried to be impartial about it on this board...but I can't hold my tongue any longer.


My LP has been literally reborn with a set of Duncans (Custom/PGn). I should have done this 4-5 years ago when I was first uphappy with the BBVs...but I guess we live and we learn. I just wish I didn't have to learn from such a costly mistake.

-Frank

 

[Jazz Rock]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

BUGGER ME . . .


. . . thanx to all for getting this fantastic info to me in such a speedy fashion !

The reason i thought of getting some true Gibbo pu's was to try and make the Epi more of a ("real"?) High-end Les Paul.

I read alot about the Seth's from SD, and i understand they are a fair bit cheaper too.
A few months ago i had my eye on a 59' (b) / Jazz 'or' Pearly Gate - combo. That was before i thought of the Gibson route !

Now i am just confused . . .


. . . any thoughts ?

I can't recommend more the '59b with 500k pots in an epi Les Paul(classic... for what it might change?!). It's just heaven to cover ZZ top - Led Zep - early Aerosmith stuff. As you might have noticed in a current thread of mine, I got a few issues with the '59n, but I am being picky, it is also a very very good pick up in a LP. So going the PGn or Jazzn (or even jazzb but in the neck as Jolly suggested) way seems like a very safe bet.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

So, looks like most of you are trying to tell me to go the SD route - correct ?

If so . . .

. . . what will it be then ???


SETHS ?

'59 s ?

JB - probably to modern for what i like !?

Alnico II Pro - ala Slash ?


. . . i like the sleazy gritty type tone, like Leslie West (Mountain) and Zeppelin.


"...what would the clever SD-forumites do ?"


Again, thanx a million !

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

. . . after-thought :

Is it worth to get the pick-up to split/coil tap ?

I read some where, low (ie. non-hot pu's) out put pu's are not worth splitting !??

THANX

 

[Guitarist]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

I have a fairly strong hatred for the BB Pro.

I thought that was pretty funny!!

I have the BB2 in the bridge of my LP and the BB1 in the neck. I think JeffB summed it up pretty well with these pickups, so I'll save the effort. I also agree with the quality, throaty lead voice statement.

They are nice pickups. Though, I am doing a swap just to see how nice. :smack:

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

. . . after-thought :

Is it worth to get the pick-up to split/coil tap ?

I read some where, low (ie. non-hot pu's) out put pu's are not worth splitting !??

THANX

Just from my (Limited) personal experiance I wouldn't say splitting a low output bucker is "worthless" but It just doesn't really have much Use normally. Splitting a Higher Output bucker (the Duncan distortion sounds best split to me) Will result in an output closer to that of an Actual Single coil (i.e. strat single coil), Where as if you split a Low Output bucker (lets say 8k) your gonna endup with a REALLY low output split tone (8K / 2 = 4K). Which is Kool for some stuff, But really isn't gonna give you the best tone (best in this case meaning "most like a single coil"). Although, A split 59' in the neck Does sound really nice clean occasionally.
I'de say if you were gonna Do any sort of extra switching with low output buckers, you be better off with A phase reversal switch, seems more useful to me at least.

 

[Jazz Rock]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

From my experience with the Epi LP I was speaking about earlier, splitting the '59s allows you to get really interesting sounds. Even if the output is low, I quite like the biting treble of the splitted neck on it's own.

But my favorites sound is the combination of the full neck with the splitted bridge. It gives you a full strong sound to the lower strings with an added sparkliness of the single coil in the treble. I found it really nice to play supposedely acoustic songs, even if it doesn't actually emulate an accoustic sound. But it feels good for this kind of things. I really enjoy playing songs form the AIC unplugged album with this pup configuration.

Than the splitted bridge is quite bright (too bright), but if I roll back the tone knob kind of halfway it get useable.

 

[gripweed]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

So, looks like most of you are trying to tell me to go the SD route - correct ?

If so . . .

. . . what will it be then ???


SETHS ?

'59 s ?

JB - probably to modern for what i like !?

Alnico II Pro - ala Slash ?


. . . i like the sleazy gritty type tone, like Leslie West (Mountain) and Zeppelin.


"...what would the clever SD-forumites do ?"


Again, thanx a million !

There are a lot of options from Duncan for a player like you. The sleazy gritty tone kinda suggests the Pearly Gates, although to me Zeppelin suggests an a5 bucker like the '59.

I really think you're going for an a2 sound. In that case try the PG set. Some players don't care for the PG bridge claiming that it is too bright.

You could also split the difference. Put a PGn in the neck slot and a '59 bridge. If you want something even hotter (and more expensive) try the Custom Shop Brobucker in the bridge.

See what some of our bros suggest here. I'm sure they'll have some great suggestions.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

I have the 490R/498T set in my LP Supreme, and I plan on swapping these out for a set of Seths. I like the hot 496R/500T ceramics in my LP Classics better than I do this set. The Supreme's pickups just don't seem to to go very well together. If I get a good tone from the bridge, the neck sucks, etc. The neck is probably my favorite, but it seems a little too muddy.

My two Classics got Antiquitys in one and the A2 MF 50th Anniversary Seths in the other. I like them both--a big improvement over the stock pickups.

I have the BB1 and BB2 in a new Gibson '58 Historic LP, and I like this set, too. I think they may be a bit brighter, but that may be pots. I plan on doing RS kits in the two Classics.

I've like the guitars I've played with the '57 Classics, but I'm not crazy about the BB Pros.

I hope that helps.

Bill

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: GIBSON 57's & Burstbuckers

Again, thanx to all . . .


To, "gripweed" :

That 59' in the bridge & Jazz in the neck sounds like it could be something that i am after ?!!
I'l have to look into that combo more seriously !


Oh, and can any one tell me what the "phase-switshing" produce. Souns wise !
Any guitarists we know that are actually using that type of wireing ?
Would love to know how it sounds !
Also, is it difficult to wire the pu's in the configureration ?

Thanks !