Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
Cause they bought a license to use the Fender designs.
Cause they bought a license to use the Fender designs.
Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
- Thread starter tubecrunch
- Start date
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
The license Warmoth has only covers Fender headstock designs, not bodies.
AFAIK, there was some kind of case relatively recently regarding Fender body shapes and a variety of companies, which Fender lost. I can't remember the details but it was something along the lines that because they failed to protect the designs when they first started making them, the Strat and Tele have become 'generic' shapes for guitars and can no longer be protected.
But don't try try quoting me in court...:eyecrazy:
Edit AFAIK, this is not the first time Warmoth has been threatened with lawsuits; they had to change the VIP (PRS style) body, and stopped making the VW (EVH style) and some BC Rich type bodies (Warlock?)
I'm actually surprised they get away with their Iceman bodies - surely Ibanez must have a trademark on that, though I guess it could be different enough to avoid problems.
The license Warmoth has only covers Fender headstock designs, not bodies.
AFAIK, there was some kind of case relatively recently regarding Fender body shapes and a variety of companies, which Fender lost. I can't remember the details but it was something along the lines that because they failed to protect the designs when they first started making them, the Strat and Tele have become 'generic' shapes for guitars and can no longer be protected.
But don't try try quoting me in court...:eyecrazy:
Edit AFAIK, this is not the first time Warmoth has been threatened with lawsuits; they had to change the VIP (PRS style) body, and stopped making the VW (EVH style) and some BC Rich type bodies (Warlock?)
I'm actually surprised they get away with their Iceman bodies - surely Ibanez must have a trademark on that, though I guess it could be different enough to avoid problems.
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tubecrunch
New member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
Hi itsabass, if you haven't already, check out rs guitarworks. Obviously it's not warmoth, but they do make their own "teevee" model.
Hi itsabass, if you haven't already, check out rs guitarworks. Obviously it's not warmoth, but they do make their own "teevee" model.
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
This is something most knuckle draggers dont understand. If you dont defend a trademark you will lose it. Gibson historically has protected their stuff. All the way back in the 70's with suing Ibanez over their copies. God forbid someone protects their intellectual property.
This is something most knuckle draggers dont understand. If you dont defend a trademark you will lose it. Gibson historically has protected their stuff. All the way back in the 70's with suing Ibanez over their copies. God forbid someone protects their intellectual property.
T
tonello
Guest
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
Yeah they might have had a patent (which is why Fender couldn't jump right in with the HBs as well), but after a while, the public was allowed to start building their own pickups like that. The Fender Wide Range didn't come out until 1073, which is why in the 600's guitars were bought and kept standard. PEople didn't mess with pickups, because if they wanted to put new ones in, they'd have had to wind them themselves.
I disagree with Gibson, because of what they're doing. ESP has dealt with this, I though maybe Gibson gave up after a while. Well, we'll see how it plays out. Who knows, Warmoth might win.
Yeah they might have had a patent (which is why Fender couldn't jump right in with the HBs as well), but after a while, the public was allowed to start building their own pickups like that. The Fender Wide Range didn't come out until 1073, which is why in the 600's guitars were bought and kept standard. PEople didn't mess with pickups, because if they wanted to put new ones in, they'd have had to wind them themselves.
I disagree with Gibson, because of what they're doing. ESP has dealt with this, I though maybe Gibson gave up after a while. Well, we'll see how it plays out. Who knows, Warmoth might win.
dominus
King Midas to Cheap Guitars
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
Quoted for the history. Hmm, looking at that headstock, it appears that Gibson made that.
Quoted for the history. Hmm, looking at that headstock, it appears that Gibson made that.
Dr. Vegetable
New member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
I just found this picture of Leo Fender playing an early 600's Tele:
:joke:
Patents are intended to protect the inventor for a limited time while simultaneously encouraging them to put their designs into the public domain. Trademarks are intended to protect a company from imitators who try to pass their clones off as "the real thing."
I could see a problem if Warmoth was claiming to sell Gibson(TM) bodies, but they aren't. A lot of companies make guitars that are the same basic shape, and most consumers can tell the difference. Let's just hope they don't start going after companies that try to cop that "trademark sound..."
EDIT: Dang, beaten to the punch. :smack:
I just found this picture of Leo Fender playing an early 600's Tele:
:joke:
Patents are intended to protect the inventor for a limited time while simultaneously encouraging them to put their designs into the public domain. Trademarks are intended to protect a company from imitators who try to pass their clones off as "the real thing."
I could see a problem if Warmoth was claiming to sell Gibson(TM) bodies, but they aren't. A lot of companies make guitars that are the same basic shape, and most consumers can tell the difference. Let's just hope they don't start going after companies that try to cop that "trademark sound..."
EDIT: Dang, beaten to the punch. :smack:
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JOLLY
Super Simonologist
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
People please read the prs vs ****son lawsuit.
****son does not have a trademark for their body designs. It all falls under a general rule.
****son is a crooked, rotten company. I am seriously considering selling my 76 custom and my 94 centennial studio. I dont want to be associated with that bunch of *******s. They are, apperenty so scared by a parts manufacturer who builds BOLT ON GUITARS, that they send out a cease and decist letter with strong formulation.
People please read the prs vs ****son lawsuit.
****son does not have a trademark for their body designs. It all falls under a general rule.
****son is a crooked, rotten company. I am seriously considering selling my 76 custom and my 94 centennial studio. I dont want to be associated with that bunch of *******s. They are, apperenty so scared by a parts manufacturer who builds BOLT ON GUITARS, that they send out a cease and decist letter with strong formulation.
AniML
New member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
That'll show 'em! Are you going to give the proceeds to an orphanage too?
Whether you like Gibson or not or agree with this action or not, they own the rights to the designs and they have the right to protect those designs.
That'll show 'em! Are you going to give the proceeds to an orphanage too?
Whether you like Gibson or not or agree with this action or not, they own the rights to the designs and they have the right to protect those designs.
sosomething
Seymour Duncan Customer Support
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
I always thought that Warmoth reproduced the Gibson headstock and other proprietary designs under a licensing agreement.
If Gibson chose to end that agreement, it's a bit of a bummer for people who want to make their own weird bolt-on versions of Gibson stuff, but it's certainly Gibson's right to do so.
But then.. I'm not sure I see the problem.
Warmoth also says "New, similar but non infringing, bodies will be available in the coming months."
So.. if you want to make a gibson-style guitar from Warmoth parts, you still can. If your gripe is that it won't look exactly like a Gibson, well, doesn't that kind of prove Gibson's point?
What I mean is - if you want to buy/assemble a guitar that uses all of Gibson's intellectual property, you should have to buy it from them.
I always thought that Warmoth reproduced the Gibson headstock and other proprietary designs under a licensing agreement.
If Gibson chose to end that agreement, it's a bit of a bummer for people who want to make their own weird bolt-on versions of Gibson stuff, but it's certainly Gibson's right to do so.
But then.. I'm not sure I see the problem.
Warmoth also says "New, similar but non infringing, bodies will be available in the coming months."
So.. if you want to make a gibson-style guitar from Warmoth parts, you still can. If your gripe is that it won't look exactly like a Gibson, well, doesn't that kind of prove Gibson's point?
What I mean is - if you want to buy/assemble a guitar that uses all of Gibson's intellectual property, you should have to buy it from them.
Wattage
High Voltologist
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
yup
I never hear anyone cry over Rickenbacker who are arguably the most vigilant. Ric doesn't making anything in a "value" line either.
yup
I never hear anyone cry over Rickenbacker who are arguably the most vigilant. Ric doesn't making anything in a "value" line either.
jmh151
Active member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
The difference between PRS and Warmoth fighting Gibson is PRS is a much larger company with more money and a legal department to fight it- and IMO- PRS had a much stronger argument. As a lawyer you should tell your client your chances of winning, how much it could cost to win, and then it's up to the client to decide whether it's worth it. Maybe if we were all buying alot more Warmoth Gibson style bodies, Warmoth would have more money to defend a legal threat by Gibson.
In the case of Warmoth, which is a smaller company, the cost of having a lawyer even look at it to determine whether they can defend the case cuts into their profits, so it's more cost efficient to just stop making them, and re-design them slightly, just like ESP and Ibanez does. Like others, I think the ESP and Ibanez re-designs are way hotter than Gibsons.
I wonder if they'll go after Dean, but Dean may have a better case since they were continually making their V's and Z's since the 70's, just with different headstocks. I'm suprised Gibson hasn't gone after ESP over the Eclipse design.
The difference between PRS and Warmoth fighting Gibson is PRS is a much larger company with more money and a legal department to fight it- and IMO- PRS had a much stronger argument. As a lawyer you should tell your client your chances of winning, how much it could cost to win, and then it's up to the client to decide whether it's worth it. Maybe if we were all buying alot more Warmoth Gibson style bodies, Warmoth would have more money to defend a legal threat by Gibson.
In the case of Warmoth, which is a smaller company, the cost of having a lawyer even look at it to determine whether they can defend the case cuts into their profits, so it's more cost efficient to just stop making them, and re-design them slightly, just like ESP and Ibanez does. Like others, I think the ESP and Ibanez re-designs are way hotter than Gibsons.
I wonder if they'll go after Dean, but Dean may have a better case since they were continually making their V's and Z's since the 70's, just with different headstocks. I'm suprised Gibson hasn't gone after ESP over the Eclipse design.
King IzzO)))
Ultimate Kitten Puncher
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
Eh, I see protecting your product, but no one is going to confuse a bolt on firebird with a gibson.
I like my SG, but it wasn't worth what it sold for new by a damn sight, and it's a good one, but still needed quite a bit of setup, oh yeah, and the stock nashville bridge can suck it. Rubbish for a 1K guitar.
Gibson can get fuct. SO can Rick.
Eh, I see protecting your product, but no one is going to confuse a bolt on firebird with a gibson.
I like my SG, but it wasn't worth what it sold for new by a damn sight, and it's a good one, but still needed quite a bit of setup, oh yeah, and the stock nashville bridge can suck it. Rubbish for a 1K guitar.
Gibson can get fuct. SO can Rick.
tubecrunch
New member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
I would have guessed gibsons legal fund would be running a little low after the year they have had. I really crack myself up.
I would have guessed gibsons legal fund would be running a little low after the year they have had. I really crack myself up.
KeeperOS
Active member
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
While I am def. not a Gibson lover and if given the opportunity I cannot shut up about their wanting business ethics, in this case I really don't see what's all the fuss about.
PRS won because their bodies were similar, not identical.
Ibanez, ESP, Schecter, Jackson plus a load of other builders get away with building similar but not identical guitars every day.
Warmoth already stated clearly that they will re-design the bodies to still be similar but not identical (infringing) and then roll out the new designs.
The only issue I see here is the downtime between the last existent bodies being sold and the first new bodies being built, hopefully it won't be long.
While I am def. not a Gibson lover and if given the opportunity I cannot shut up about their wanting business ethics, in this case I really don't see what's all the fuss about.
PRS won because their bodies were similar, not identical.
Ibanez, ESP, Schecter, Jackson plus a load of other builders get away with building similar but not identical guitars every day.
Warmoth already stated clearly that they will re-design the bodies to still be similar but not identical (infringing) and then roll out the new designs.
The only issue I see here is the downtime between the last existent bodies being sold and the first new bodies being built, hopefully it won't be long.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Gibson is halting warmoth builds!?!?
They did, namely they sued Suhr and a few similar makers.
A pretty high court (too lazy to look up right now) has decided that you can trademark the headplate design but not the body design.
This is in line with what happens for a long time with legally clear Asian guitars, they all have their own ugly headstock but apart from that they can look like a Fender or any other maker for that matter.
Unless Gibson has dug up some new fancy legal trick they are bound to lose this round. I hope Warmoth has the balls to challenge this threat, which to me looks like a bluff.
Is Gibson afraid of competition that uses actual rosewood fretboards or what's going on?
They did, namely they sued Suhr and a few similar makers.
A pretty high court (too lazy to look up right now) has decided that you can trademark the headplate design but not the body design.
This is in line with what happens for a long time with legally clear Asian guitars, they all have their own ugly headstock but apart from that they can look like a Fender or any other maker for that matter.
Unless Gibson has dug up some new fancy legal trick they are bound to lose this round. I hope Warmoth has the balls to challenge this threat, which to me looks like a bluff.
Is Gibson afraid of competition that uses actual rosewood fretboards or what's going on?
