astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
is it usually a finish thing or could it be something more relevant to the quality of the guitar in terms of sound?
Gibson "Seconds"
- Thread starter astrozombie
- Start date
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
ImmortalSix
John Mayer's Mankini
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
Just a data point:
I just picked up an Epiphone second, inspected and rejected in Nashville (apparently), and it is the best feeling Epiphone I've played. It's flaw is that the 16th fret is high in the slot on the treble side.
I have never seen one stamped USED that had more than one flaw. It's usually one thing.
Btw, I popped that poorly seated fret with a hammer exactly one fine and it's perfect now. Wonderful guitar.
Just a data point:
I just picked up an Epiphone second, inspected and rejected in Nashville (apparently), and it is the best feeling Epiphone I've played. It's flaw is that the 16th fret is high in the slot on the treble side.
I have never seen one stamped USED that had more than one flaw. It's usually one thing.
Btw, I popped that poorly seated fret with a hammer exactly one fine and it's perfect now. Wonderful guitar.
JeffB
Let it B
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
Epi does "seconds" all the time, Gibson has not done so since I was a teenager.
I had a Epi Les Paul Classic quilt that was a refurb and it had several issues, cosmetic and technical, that did not manage to be fixed (or if they were fixed, were done completely half-ass)
Epi does "seconds" all the time, Gibson has not done so since I was a teenager.
I had a Epi Les Paul Classic quilt that was a refurb and it had several issues, cosmetic and technical, that did not manage to be fixed (or if they were fixed, were done completely half-ass)
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
The RD artist that I had was a 2nd and it was just a laquer run other than that it was it was perfectly fine.
The RD artist that I had was a 2nd and it was just a laquer run other than that it was it was perfectly fine.
Mr 9finger
Digitally Challenged
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
Normally, I don't disagree with Jeffro, but this isn't entirely true. Gibson has done factory seconds a few times over the years since being in Tennessee, but they do not offer them up for public sale. Normally it's an employee purchase only type deal. As far as I know, they haven't done it in several years, basically since counterfeiting of Gibson products have became a real problem.
The problem with Gibson 2nds was, they were off the books completely for the most part. The serial numbers were destroyed and they were sold as is to employees. So you're treading into dangerous waters if you're buying a Gibson 2nd. There is no real way to tell if it's legit or not.
Normally, I don't disagree with Jeffro, but this isn't entirely true. Gibson has done factory seconds a few times over the years since being in Tennessee, but they do not offer them up for public sale. Normally it's an employee purchase only type deal. As far as I know, they haven't done it in several years, basically since counterfeiting of Gibson products have became a real problem.
The problem with Gibson 2nds was, they were off the books completely for the most part. The serial numbers were destroyed and they were sold as is to employees. So you're treading into dangerous waters if you're buying a Gibson 2nd. There is no real way to tell if it's legit or not.
F
Funkfingers
Guest
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
If Gibson no longer does "seconds", what does a B stamped into the rear of the headstock signify?
If Gibson no longer does "seconds", what does a B stamped into the rear of the headstock signify?
CapoFirstFret
New member
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
I have it on record from the guys at Gibson that they no longer do factory seconds, period. They are cut in half and thrown in the garbage now. Occasionally for some reason or another a few find their way out. At the bar I used to work at there was a Gibson sponsorship and Gibson gave them a bunch of "seconds" (both Gibson and Epiphone) and they were allowed to be bolted to the wall but only on the condition that they were bolted in such a fashion that should they be removed, they would have been made unplayable.
I have it on record from the guys at Gibson that they no longer do factory seconds, period. They are cut in half and thrown in the garbage now. Occasionally for some reason or another a few find their way out. At the bar I used to work at there was a Gibson sponsorship and Gibson gave them a bunch of "seconds" (both Gibson and Epiphone) and they were allowed to be bolted to the wall but only on the condition that they were bolted in such a fashion that should they be removed, they would have been made unplayable.
JeffB
Let it B
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
I did not know they did these "employee" sales at one time. Interesting. I stand corrected.
But I was speaking as to offering them for sale to the public, which they have not done in many moons.
Its too bad I cannot find a employee second 355 for about $700 on fleabay.:sad:
I did not know they did these "employee" sales at one time. Interesting. I stand corrected.
But I was speaking as to offering them for sale to the public, which they have not done in many moons.
Its too bad I cannot find a employee second 355 for about $700 on fleabay.:sad:
jmh151
Active member
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
I have a 1986 Les Paul Custom that is marked "SEC" on the back of the headstock. It's a factory second. Back in 1986 I bought it for $400
I got it used in 1989 long before fakes were around. At that time, it was Alpine White, but the part where your belly would touch on the side - on the bass side- was a yellowish pink- like sweat had discolored the nitro- but that may have happened after it left the factory
Then years later I decided to refinish it, and found out the reason it was marked a factory second. It had a AAAAA flame maple top underneath, but once the top was carved, a knot was revealed behind the bridge, making it a less than perfect top. So Gibson probably saw this and painted it white.
In the meantime, it seems like it was meant to be a Custom Shop, or a 68 Reissue, since it has a very light solid 1 piece mahogany back instead of a pancake from the Norlin era.
When I was in Nashville years ago at the Gibson showroom the Gibson employees denied ever selling factory seconds. So who knows how this guitar made its way to NYC.
John Sykes's Black Les Paul Custom and Slash's 1986 Gibson Les Paul Standard- the sunburst one with the offset bookmatched plain maple top- are factory seconds. I heard back in the day if an endorser needed a good (or free) deal on a Gibson, if they visited the factory they might leave the factory with one of the seconds- I remember Izzy Stradlin mentioning he left the Gibson factory with an unfinished Les Paul.
I have a 1986 Les Paul Custom that is marked "SEC" on the back of the headstock. It's a factory second. Back in 1986 I bought it for $400
I got it used in 1989 long before fakes were around. At that time, it was Alpine White, but the part where your belly would touch on the side - on the bass side- was a yellowish pink- like sweat had discolored the nitro- but that may have happened after it left the factory
Then years later I decided to refinish it, and found out the reason it was marked a factory second. It had a AAAAA flame maple top underneath, but once the top was carved, a knot was revealed behind the bridge, making it a less than perfect top. So Gibson probably saw this and painted it white.
In the meantime, it seems like it was meant to be a Custom Shop, or a 68 Reissue, since it has a very light solid 1 piece mahogany back instead of a pancake from the Norlin era.
When I was in Nashville years ago at the Gibson showroom the Gibson employees denied ever selling factory seconds. So who knows how this guitar made its way to NYC.
John Sykes's Black Les Paul Custom and Slash's 1986 Gibson Les Paul Standard- the sunburst one with the offset bookmatched plain maple top- are factory seconds. I heard back in the day if an endorser needed a good (or free) deal on a Gibson, if they visited the factory they might leave the factory with one of the seconds- I remember Izzy Stradlin mentioning he left the Gibson factory with an unfinished Les Paul.
Lucid_Lunatic
Rebelyellologist
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
Gibson has always said they never sold Seconds. That being said, I have seen more "Seconds" from the 70's Norlin era than I have non Seconds. That's the only time period I have seen with those stamps.
With Epiphones, the factory does not mark them second. They sell them as scrap to a handful of companies that do repair work and sell them at a discount. One such company is MIRC in Franklin,TN. The guitars can be anything from just not passing final inspection to having necks broken off. They will be repaired and refinished, then sold to retail mom 'n' pop style music stores.
Gibson has always said they never sold Seconds. That being said, I have seen more "Seconds" from the 70's Norlin era than I have non Seconds. That's the only time period I have seen with those stamps.
With Epiphones, the factory does not mark them second. They sell them as scrap to a handful of companies that do repair work and sell them at a discount. One such company is MIRC in Franklin,TN. The guitars can be anything from just not passing final inspection to having necks broken off. They will be repaired and refinished, then sold to retail mom 'n' pop style music stores.
jmh151
Active member
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
Here is a quote from Henry Juskiewitz of Gibson regarding Gibson factory seconds:
"I strongly believe that anything that says Gibson should meet a very high quality standard. That is what the name has meant from the founding of our company. Orville Gibson did not sell seconds.
That practice really became a major approach to sales under Norlin. The problem with a second is that many unscrupulous dealers would not tell consumers it was a second and we would constantly get these guitars as warranty returns. The consumers felt cheated, and often Gibson was blamed. It also told our manufacturing folks, it was OK to make mistakes. We never had a problem selling seconds.
When I stopped that practice and destroyed the first batch of substandard instruments, quality levels shot up tremendously. Our people realized that we do not endorse mistakes, and our mission was to insure all instruments meet our professional standards.
Mistakes do not have to happen. Modern manufactures achieve a quality level of 6 sigma, which means only a very tiny amount of product does not meet standard. We have continually improved our process and are on our way to eliminating mistakes.
This give integrity to our brand, it let's our fans know our dedication to excellence, and it is best for the business financially. "
Here is a quote from Henry Juskiewitz of Gibson regarding Gibson factory seconds:
"I strongly believe that anything that says Gibson should meet a very high quality standard. That is what the name has meant from the founding of our company. Orville Gibson did not sell seconds.
That practice really became a major approach to sales under Norlin. The problem with a second is that many unscrupulous dealers would not tell consumers it was a second and we would constantly get these guitars as warranty returns. The consumers felt cheated, and often Gibson was blamed. It also told our manufacturing folks, it was OK to make mistakes. We never had a problem selling seconds.
When I stopped that practice and destroyed the first batch of substandard instruments, quality levels shot up tremendously. Our people realized that we do not endorse mistakes, and our mission was to insure all instruments meet our professional standards.
Mistakes do not have to happen. Modern manufactures achieve a quality level of 6 sigma, which means only a very tiny amount of product does not meet standard. We have continually improved our process and are on our way to eliminating mistakes.
This give integrity to our brand, it let's our fans know our dedication to excellence, and it is best for the business financially. "
Mr 9finger
Digitally Challenged
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
I just got off the phone with my cousin. He worked at the Memphis plant from 2002 to 2004 and then transferred to to the Nashville plant from 04 to 06. He said if he remembers correctly, they would only sell functional seconds to employees once or twice a year. He also told me one of the conditions for purchasing was that you could not sell it as long as you still worked for the company, and even then, you couldn't sell it as new Gibson because they destroyed the serial numbers by scratching them out.
He also said these employee sales stopped in 2005. Counterfeits were starting to become a big problem and some employees got fired for selling the seconds they bought on Ebay, so Henry pulled the plug on it.
I just got off the phone with my cousin. He worked at the Memphis plant from 2002 to 2004 and then transferred to to the Nashville plant from 04 to 06. He said if he remembers correctly, they would only sell functional seconds to employees once or twice a year. He also told me one of the conditions for purchasing was that you could not sell it as long as you still worked for the company, and even then, you couldn't sell it as new Gibson because they destroyed the serial numbers by scratching them out.
He also said these employee sales stopped in 2005. Counterfeits were starting to become a big problem and some employees got fired for selling the seconds they bought on Ebay, so Henry pulled the plug on it.
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
That all sounds well and good. But Gibson is letting a lot of guitars out on the market that SHOULD be called "seconds".
jmh151...That quote sounds really wonderful, but in reality I don't see any indication that "quality levels shot up tremendously". That's just PR hype. In my experience the quality levels are lower than I have ever seen in the past 50 years. You can either believe words or experience. I prefer to believe my actual experience rather than the hype.
Just a little reality check.
That all sounds well and good. But Gibson is letting a lot of guitars out on the market that SHOULD be called "seconds".
jmh151...That quote sounds really wonderful, but in reality I don't see any indication that "quality levels shot up tremendously". That's just PR hype. In my experience the quality levels are lower than I have ever seen in the past 50 years. You can either believe words or experience. I prefer to believe my actual experience rather than the hype.
Just a little reality check.
Bludave
New member
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
It would depend on where the 2nd is stamped on the guitar. For example if the 2nd is under the lacquer then it is something in the wood. Maybe a minor no structural crack or some similar defect in the wood. If it is on top of the finish then it is usually a finish flaw. I have a 335 that is a factory second & I examined this guitar from all different angles before I bought it & could not see any flaw in it anywhere(the 2nd is stamped on top of the finish). When I got it home I was able to notice a few flaws where it looked like the buff wheel may have picked up some debris & put a few marks in the finish. I rebuffed it and most(not all) of it came out. It is one of my favorite humbucking guitars.
It would depend on where the 2nd is stamped on the guitar. For example if the 2nd is under the lacquer then it is something in the wood. Maybe a minor no structural crack or some similar defect in the wood. If it is on top of the finish then it is usually a finish flaw. I have a 335 that is a factory second & I examined this guitar from all different angles before I bought it & could not see any flaw in it anywhere(the 2nd is stamped on top of the finish). When I got it home I was able to notice a few flaws where it looked like the buff wheel may have picked up some debris & put a few marks in the finish. I rebuffed it and most(not all) of it came out. It is one of my favorite humbucking guitars.
astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
The guitar in question is a 1983 Gibson Les Paul Custom.
The guitar in question is a 1983 Gibson Les Paul Custom.
ItsaBass
New member
Re: Gibson "Seconds"
I play an '83 Custom as one of my two main gigging guitars. Yes, they did do seconds back then. They started trashing them to make a point about quality when the new guy took over.
I wouldn't worry about it being a second, as long as it is not due to a warped neck or defective truss rod or neck joint. I'd worry more about the fact that it is an '83. The Gibsons of that time are generally crappy by today's standards, but they can look good from a distance, can play well, and are affordable. They make good bases for modification. And IME, they need sonic modification big time.
My '83 has a three-piece maple neck (plus the ears) with no volute, and a three-piece maple top. You can see the lines at the glue joints even through the thick black paint. It also seems to have a one-piece body, since I cannot see any similar glue joints on the back of the guitar. Pancake construction was gone by that point, so you get a 7- or-8-piece guitar instead of a 9-piece guitar. Whoopee!
The tops are shorter than they are today. And the arch is carved very poorly, so that there is little "moat" next to the binding, a gradual slope upward (hardly an "arch"), and kind of a "mesa" on the top...and the bridge leans backward in comparison to the neck set angle (i.e. it sits parallel to the back of the guitar, not to the fingerboard, like it should).
I don't mind the maple neck, or the fact that it is three piece. Mahogany looks much better to me as a wood, but we are talking about a guitar that is slathered with black paint here, so who cares? Actually, a three piece neck is how most acoustic guitar building books I have read say to make a neck for a steel-stringed guitar. A three-piece maple neck is more stable, and is less likely to snap the head off in an accident than a one-piece mahogany neck.
As for the tone with the maple neck, that is debatable. The tone is definitely different. Most will say that a maple neck and/or ebony board will make tone brighter, but based on my experience, I would say that the maple with an ebony board on that heavy solid body is a treble sucker. My guitar was all mud with any humbucker I tried, no matter how under-wound it was or how I set it up. It took single coils to get the thing to speak. Hard to say what the exact culprit was, though. I firmly believe that it depends more on individual pieces of wood than on generalizations based on species. However, I've never played a Norlin LP Custom that wasn't Mudsville. Great for low- to-moderate-volume jazz; terrible for rock-n-roll unless absolutely cranked. Deluxes handled the Norlin construction tactics better IMO. Much more suitable pickups to the pieced-together boat anchors of guitars that LPs were at that time.
The guitar has a very thin neck front to back, and has the fretless wonder treatment. Wide, very low frets. I like thick necks for the most part, but this is a fast guitar to play. And it looks killer. Only Gibson Custom I'd have been able to afford any time soon, so I grabbed it for $1,000 out the door, a good chunk of which was covered by the trade in of a Studio.
If it were me, if I liked the feel of the neck, and if there were no major defects, I would probably pay $400 or less for that guitar, or just let it pass. Value is a subjective thing. Others might pay more. Others might not even take it as a gift.
I play an '83 Custom as one of my two main gigging guitars. Yes, they did do seconds back then. They started trashing them to make a point about quality when the new guy took over.
I wouldn't worry about it being a second, as long as it is not due to a warped neck or defective truss rod or neck joint. I'd worry more about the fact that it is an '83. The Gibsons of that time are generally crappy by today's standards, but they can look good from a distance, can play well, and are affordable. They make good bases for modification. And IME, they need sonic modification big time.
My '83 has a three-piece maple neck (plus the ears) with no volute, and a three-piece maple top. You can see the lines at the glue joints even through the thick black paint. It also seems to have a one-piece body, since I cannot see any similar glue joints on the back of the guitar. Pancake construction was gone by that point, so you get a 7- or-8-piece guitar instead of a 9-piece guitar. Whoopee!
The tops are shorter than they are today. And the arch is carved very poorly, so that there is little "moat" next to the binding, a gradual slope upward (hardly an "arch"), and kind of a "mesa" on the top...and the bridge leans backward in comparison to the neck set angle (i.e. it sits parallel to the back of the guitar, not to the fingerboard, like it should).
I don't mind the maple neck, or the fact that it is three piece. Mahogany looks much better to me as a wood, but we are talking about a guitar that is slathered with black paint here, so who cares? Actually, a three piece neck is how most acoustic guitar building books I have read say to make a neck for a steel-stringed guitar. A three-piece maple neck is more stable, and is less likely to snap the head off in an accident than a one-piece mahogany neck.
As for the tone with the maple neck, that is debatable. The tone is definitely different. Most will say that a maple neck and/or ebony board will make tone brighter, but based on my experience, I would say that the maple with an ebony board on that heavy solid body is a treble sucker. My guitar was all mud with any humbucker I tried, no matter how under-wound it was or how I set it up. It took single coils to get the thing to speak. Hard to say what the exact culprit was, though. I firmly believe that it depends more on individual pieces of wood than on generalizations based on species. However, I've never played a Norlin LP Custom that wasn't Mudsville. Great for low- to-moderate-volume jazz; terrible for rock-n-roll unless absolutely cranked. Deluxes handled the Norlin construction tactics better IMO. Much more suitable pickups to the pieced-together boat anchors of guitars that LPs were at that time.
The guitar has a very thin neck front to back, and has the fretless wonder treatment. Wide, very low frets. I like thick necks for the most part, but this is a fast guitar to play. And it looks killer. Only Gibson Custom I'd have been able to afford any time soon, so I grabbed it for $1,000 out the door, a good chunk of which was covered by the trade in of a Studio.
If it were me, if I liked the feel of the neck, and if there were no major defects, I would probably pay $400 or less for that guitar, or just let it pass. Value is a subjective thing. Others might pay more. Others might not even take it as a gift.
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