Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

[beaubrummels]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

I'm going to trademark the hole. Not the f-hole, just the hole - the air in between. They can't claim that part - they didn't make it.

And following that, I'm going to trademark the air shape around a 335 - the negative space. Because obviously that's the part Gibson didn't want, or else their shape would have infringed on it.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

I'm going to trademark the hole. Not the f-hole, just the hole - the air in between. They can't claim that part - they didn't make it.

And following that, I'm going to trademark the air shape around a 335 - the negative space. Because obviously that's the part Gibson didn't want, or else their shape would have infringed on it.

I like the cut of your jib. Get yourself a good trademark and patent attorney. Best thing Floyd Rose ever did for himself, as he's nothing innovative in the 30+ years since and maintains the pimp daddy life.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Interesting thread.

I do understand Gibson wanting to protect their interests, but I have not figured out what their end-game goals are in this particular action.

Some random thoughts:

I too prefer to buy American-made instruments, but...I will always try to make the best choice FOR ME. There are a lot of factors in this. I don't use a Tele, and rarely would I have a use for one; so if I were to buy one, getting something like a Squire Classic Vibe or a G&L Tribute would make more sense to me, in not tying up a lot of capital in and instrument that won't get used much. But again, that is MY choice. What's right for me might not be right for another person. If you only need a Epi Dot, fine. But don't bash me because I currently have the means to own a Gibson 335.


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Interesting comments about making guitars by hand versus machine made. I can remember that just a short time ago, people were screaming about how guitars with CAD/CAM/CNC had "no soul" and this was going to "ruin the industry". I don't this has happened yet, but I do remember the outcry.


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How much does a Gibson worker make? I'm sure the secretaries and the execs make comparable salaries to people in other industries. But what about the skilled guys on the shop floor? When people start moaning that Gibson guitars are too expensive, don't these guys deserve a living wage commensurate with their skills?


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Seems like a lot of folks just don't think Gibson deserves to make a profit. I always thought that companies making a profit was good for the economy. Apparently not.


====================

I used to own a late '60s--early '70s vintage Gibson ES-330TD in the Iced Tea Sunburst, with a walnut back; bought it back about 1972. This was the hollow, twin P-90s, long-neck version. Really, really, really hated to sell that one. Great guitar. On the other hand, I also owned a Gibson ES-150DCN about the same time. It was a nightmare, with all kinds of tuning issues. This one was blond, 2HB, 3" thick at the rim and fully hollow. I sold this one in late '79, and was glad to be rid of it, even though I took a huge loss. I think if I could go back in time, I would have kept the 330--it was a much better guitar. And for what I was doing at the time, the P-90s sounded better, too.


====================

I own five semi-hollows. The first one I got was a used Hondo 335-clone from the late '70s. I paid $140 back in 1992, sans case, and got an SKB case for it. It is in a bit of disrepair right now as it needs new pots and wiring. These were MIJ, and not cheap; they sold for $1,000 back when you could get a Gibson for $1,299. The neck on this guitar is a very nice profile, but it does have the scarf joint common to instruments of this era. The finish is some sort of poly, and the body is laminated mahogany rather than maple. The color is sort of a reddish milk chocolate sunburst and it is very attractive. I think the pickups are DiMarzio PAFs in chrome covers, and it is a very sweet-sounding guitar.

The back in the early 2000's I got an Ibanez Artstar AS-120TR (Transparent Red poly). I bought it used for $400, also without a case, but again got an SKB for it. This one is MIK, and is I think, better made than the Hondo. Fit, finish, workmanship are all excellent, and probably better than most Gibsons. Nice inlays, gold hardware, and the Super '58 pickups have great vintage tone. This body shape is slightly different than the 335 shape, noticeably the cutaway "ears". (The Hondo is more accurate in this regard.)

But in 2006, I found a fabulous deal on a Memphis Gibson ES-335. I just couldn't resist. It is an Antique Sunburst finish (now discontinued), with a bit of flame. The neck is slightly asymmetrical, and has a weird feel to it for about three minutes every time I pick it up, lol, but it is a fantastic player. Gorgeous guitar, great tone; if there is a flaw in the construction, I haven't found it yet. It has a different feel and vibe than the Hondo or the Artstar. I can see that for a lot of guys, this guitar would not be worth the extra $2K over the Artstar, say, but to me it is. The 335 does so many things so well, and it really fits well in my band when I want a 2HB tone.

I am a big Paul McCartney fan, and Rusty Anderson often uses a vintage blonde 335 in the band. And I got it in my head that I really wanted a blond one--I mean who WOULDN'T want a hot beautiful blond? A few years later I found a really nice used Memphis, again at a bargain price and jumped on it. This one has a slightly fatter and more symmetrical neck than the first one, and a little more resonance. The flame is gorgeous, and it reminds me of a girl I dated in college who had beautiful curly long blond hair. And again, I know Gibson are supposed to be shoddily made (at least according to the internet), but this one is immaculate. I have only gigged it once, and I was pleasantly shocked at how many people commented on the guitar's looks and tone. One older gentleman in particular I think, got not only a really bad case of G.A.S, but seemed to be contemplating whether he could grab it and run faster than me, lol.

And finally I bought my last one last year. This one is a 2013 Vintage Sunburst, also a Memphis flame top. I got this one literally for pennies on the dollar, as it had a broken headstock. It might be the best playing one of the bunch--it has the "baby bear" neck. A little brighter tone than the blond. And again--flawless. I was very lucky to be in the right place at the right time with this one--heck with all of them. I have been very fortunate in my later years to have acquired so many nice guitars.


====================

I remember when Larry Carlton was endorsing the Yamaha SA-2000, but even he admitted that when one finds a good ES-335, it has a certain special-ness that can't be beat.

Can't imagine LC playing an Artstar, or a Hondo, or a Epi Dot for that matter...


====================

I would love to have a couple more, to tell the truth. Rusty Anderson has a Signature model and I TOTALLY fell in love with the Warren Haynes 335...I want one SO BAD. And one of the Custom Shop block inlay versions would be nice to have in my collection, too. However, the 345, 355 and Lucille models do nothing for me. I recently picked up a D'Angelico 335 type, and couldn't see doing that at all. The Ibanez Schofield model is nice, as is the Yamaha SA-2200; but I honestly think the Gibson guitars I own were worth the extra money. To me; YMMV.

The 335 and it's brethren is an iconic style, instantly recognizable. I can certainly understand why Gibson wants to protect their interests.

Bill

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

See Evan, that's what happens when you forbid Gibson-bashing, something else has to take its' place.

Well, personally I am in the too-little-too-late camp and being the distrustful prick that I am, I'm wondering what their end game is. Testing the waters before taking the LP/Explorer/V shapes to court?
Seeing where their claim holds water and where not? Or perhaps just trying to go for another episode of Poor-old-downtroden-Gibson?

TBH neither is very clear to me... Then again, I live in Greece, a country where the US legal system leaves us both baffled and, TBH a bit creeped out.
I mean, if someone here were to try and trademark/patent the F-home he would be laughed out of court.

Also, by living in Greece, a country with no real heavy industries, buying our electronics or luxury goods (musical instruments are considered that) IS by definition an import. US-products are every bit as imported as Asian-made ones. So being a bit more neutral, I gotta say that from where I'm standing, the main reason Asians have flooded the market vs the US-made goods it that a lot of the time they plain and simply make both a better product and at a more competitive price.
Sure you can blame the price part on the fact that their workers are paid a fraction of what a US-worker is/should be but what about quality?
The way I see it, you can try to be the cheapest and move a lot of units but on the other hand, if your prices are still within reason, you can afford NOT being the cheapest and still sell a lot, as long as you make sure you are THE BEST.
Case in point, you can buy Asian-made pickups for 20 USD or less any day of the week, yet our gracious host keeps selling pickups 4 or 5 times that simply by being of exceptional quality.

And then there's this; I don't want to make my post a page-long so I'm gonna link my personal experiences back in 2008 between Korean-built Michael Kelly Patriots and, surprise surprise, two Gibson LPs but to give you guys a hint, 6 years later I own a Michael Kelly Patriot and would buy another one sight unseen while a Gibson, not a chance.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...n-Last-straw&p=1857590&viewfull=1#post1857590

And to separate the inexcusable from the outstanding, right next to SD we have Suhr where owning a Modern is one of my long-time dreams and him being a US-maker doesn't even come into play. His prices might be a bit high but IMHO are totally justifiable for the level of craftsmanship, level of detail and quality that you get.
Similarly when I got my hand-made Stinnett or my US-CS Parker or any of the THREE USA-CS Washburn MGs, them being built in the US never even register. In all those cases they were excellent guitars of superb quality and, bonus, due to the various circumstances, within my budget.

 

[DreX]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

I want to believe you, but bolding words and using the term "quality" without referencing specifics simply doesn't constitute actionable information, it's all rhetorical device. If only people were perfectly logical and never swayed by emotions, then maybe I could take you at your word alone.

The only reason I pay more for Seymour Duncans, or anything US made, is because I can't get it cheaper elsewhere. There is no import "Little '59", and even if there were, it's not necessarily that I doubt it's quality so much as I couldn't be certain it's made to the specification as the SD US made version, such as having the same type of wire, same materials, etc. That would not constitute a quality issue in and of itself, because having a thing be merely different is neither good or bad. If the pickup fell apart in my hands, *that* would be a quality issue, but TBH the overseas products I've worked with have been fairly well made and durable. The idea we should operate on the assumption that Chinese made products will break immediately is baseless FUD, US based retailers wouldn't even sell it if it were really that bad, they wouldn't want to field the returns.

I really like Joyo and Biyang and other such pedals because not only are they inexpensive, but they differ slightly from high priced US versions. Outside of the issue of quality, they actually represent something unique unto themselves. The Joyo Vintage Overdrive and the Biyang Mad Driver do not sound 100% like either a TS-9 or a TS-808, and there is nothing wrong with the sounds they produce or they way they function. In fact, I really like their ultra-bright LEDs, very easy to see.

 

[hydro]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Drex I have concluded you would argue with your own shadow.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Well, I'm afraid other than the very literal take of the word (i.e. not falling apart on your hands), quality is, a lot of the time, a perceived notion that cannot always be quantified.

Take for instance an SD pickup versus the generic ones found in the 100 USD starter guitars.
Will it last longer? Probably not. Will it be built with material that are substantially more expensive than the cheaper one? Nope.
Their difference in quality IS perceived. It is their "tonal" quality and it is completely subjective. But somehow virtually all of us will agree that an SD will sound better than the generic one found on a 100 USD starter guitar.

I believe in your own way you also said what I meant. There are cases where you will not buy the least expensive alternative because in your mind you will be losing something as opposed to buying the more expensive but subjectively "better" product, or at the very least the one closest to what you want.
On the other hand, if you don't feel like you'd be losing anything by going for the less expensive option then that is what you will do. Simple as that.
Price is always a deciding factor but only as long as the (perceived) loss in the end-product is acceptable and/or justifiable.

Also, something else to consider. The exact words elude me but I read once that to a manufacturer, an extra step that ensures a better product that is nevertheless lost in the final consumer (or the biggest percentage thereof) is quality lost.
IMO, what separates the good from the truly great is that the former will forgo the above additional step(s) whereas the latter will still go through them, not only for that small percentage that will notice it but also because he will and if he is committed to building the best possible product, it will matter.

Now as to the bolding of words, where I come from it is simply considered being polite as writing in all caps is perceived as shouting (a single word in caps is perceived as being emphasized)

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

It is, but SD mitigates the threat of Chinese knock offs with

- the custom shop, providing a service as well as a product
- the "Duncan Designed" line
- this forum, being personally involved with customers
- brand boosting / celebrity endorsements

But even if you take all that away, boutique makers still stay in business on account of:

- the myth that any guitar related product made in the US is better made than those made in the East
- our ability to relate to the proprietors on a cultural and/or personal level
- sense of patriotism

so being a boutique shop isn't strictly a bad business model, but it does rely on precarious circumstances.

Where did I claim that I do? Why would you assume that?




It's not a myth that some American made music products, maybe even most of them, are more durable than cheap Chinese made equivalents, but I see people on the internet, even here, just assume out of hand that a thing is better for no other reason than it being made in the USA. That is difference between merit based evaluation, and anecdotal evidence and broad generalizations. If you ask someone "why should I pay more for a Seymour Duncan and not less for a Duncan Designed?" some here would answer that the former is made in the USA, with the assertion that this is why you can trust that it's better, no further explanation necessary.



A lot of boutique makers are actively involved in online forums, and it's easy to see first hand what this does for their reputation. It is very good. People feel like they personally know them, they refer to them on a first name basis. It the ultimate word-of-mouth promotion.

And "sense of patrionism" is not only not "made up", but is directly cited as a reason for buying domestic within this thread.



That doesn't hold up. A lot of foreign made components have US based service centers. You don't have to speak Japanese if you have a problem with your Boss pedal. You'll probably be referred to an authorized service center near you, and not even required to ship the item back to the manufacturer for service.

Truth be told, my guitar related products very rarely fail due to manufacture defect, domestic or foreign made. I'm shocked to see as much made about customer services as it is, and when I do have to return something, I'm dealing with Musicians Friends, or an Amazon related retailer, not the manufacturer. If you fell it beneficial to pay $200 instead of $40 (for the sake of argument) on account of customer service alone, I have to wonder how you treat your things.

If boutique makers are friendlier, it's because they have to be for the prices they charge and the small volumes they push, and is covered in this bullet point "our ability to relate to the proprietors on a cultural and/or personal level".

And I have been treated poorly at times by domestic guitar accessory makers as well, though I won't name names.

I want to believe you, but bolding words and using the term "quality" without referencing specifics simply doesn't constitute actionable information, it's all rhetorical device. If only people were perfectly logical and never swayed by emotions, then maybe I could take you at your word alone.

The only reason I pay more for Seymour Duncans, or anything US made, is because I can't get it cheaper elsewhere. There is no import "Little '59", and even if there were, it's not necessarily that I doubt it's quality so much as I couldn't be certain it's made to the specification as the SD US made version, such as having the same type of wire, same materials, etc. That would not constitute a quality issue in and of itself, because having a thing be merely different is neither good or bad. If the pickup fell apart in my hands, *that* would be a quality issue, but TBH the overseas products I've worked with have been fairly well made and durable. The idea we should operate on the assumption that Chinese made products will break immediately is baseless FUD, US based retailers wouldn't even sell it if it were really that bad, they wouldn't want to field the returns.

I really like Joyo and Biyang and other such pedals because not only are they inexpensive, but they differ slightly from high priced US versions. Outside of the issue of quality, they actually represent something unique unto themselves. The Joyo Vintage Overdrive and the Biyang Mad Driver do not sound 100% like either a TS-9 or a TS-808, and there is nothing wrong with the sounds they produce or they way they function. In fact, I really like their ultra-bright LEDs, very easy to see.

:wow:

D00d, you're insights are amazing. IDK why others cannot recognize it.:dunno:

 

[DreX]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Well, I'm afraid other than the very literal take of the word (i.e. not falling apart on your hands), quality is, a lot of the time, a perceived notion that cannot always be quantified.

Take for instance an SD pickup versus the generic ones found in the 100 USD starter guitars.
Will it last longer? Probably not. Will it be built with material that are substantially more expensive than the cheaper one? Nope.
Their difference in quality IS perceived. It is their "tonal" quality and it is completely subjective. But somehow virtually all of us will agree that an SD will sound better than the generic one found on a 100 USD starter guitar.

I believe in your own way you also said what I meant. There are cases where you will not buy the least expensive alternative because in your mind you will be losing something as opposed to buying the more expensive but subjectively "better" product, or at the very least the one closest to what you want.
On the other hand, if you don't feel like you'd be losing anything by going for the less expensive option then that is what you will do. Simple as that.
Price is always a deciding factor but only as long as the (perceived) loss in the end-product is acceptable and/or justifiable.

I mostly agree with what you're saying, but maybe for different reasons.

You can't say "X is objectively better than Y, on account of X is of higher subjective quality", because a subjective can't be used to establish an objective. When you say that something is subjectively of better quality, all you're really saying is that you personally like that thing more than another, not that it's inherently superior. So when you say "our gracious host keeps selling pickups 4 or 5 times that simply by being of exceptional quality", that doesn't really tell us anything except that people like them, for reasons which may or may not be objective. The fact that people will pay more for a thing doesn't necessarily mean it's better. People often spend too much for brand name goods, such as food and clothing, and there's no objective reason for doing so, it's strictly for emotional gratification.

Where I agree, though, is that often US or Western based companies have a better understanding of their Western customer's needs and wants than Eastern companies do, and for that reason they can be more likely to produce a product that desirable to Western customers, and that's true in many industries, not just guitars.

Also, something else to consider. The exact words elude me but I read once that to a manufacturer, an extra step that ensures a better product that is nevertheless lost in the final consumer (or the biggest percentage thereof) is quality lost.
IMO, what separates the good from the truly great is that the former will forgo the above additional step(s) whereas the latter will still go through them, not only for that small percentage that will notice it but also because he will and if he is committed to building the best possible product, it will matter.

Maybe you're thinking of quality control.. all I have to say about that is that there isn't a scourge of Chinese made products sold in the US, and other developed markets, readily falling apart. I know some truly awful stuff is made in China, but you'll only find that being sold in the US in conjunction with a scam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_van_speaker_scam or a Black Friday sales, because the domestic retailers otherwise don't want to deal with it.

 

[LReese]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Brilliant!!!!

 

[uOpt]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

[Groan...]

 

[Securb]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

You can't say "X is objectively better than Y, on account of X is of higher subjective quality"

Quality is not subjective it is very measurable on many levels looking at multiple variables. Most manufacturing in the US is governed with Six Sigma guidelines and procedures.

 

[DreX]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Quality is not subjective it is very measurable on many levels looking at multiple variables. Most manufacturing in the US is governed with Six Sigma guidelines and procedures.

There are definitions of quality that can be read as objective or subjective. KeeperOS claimed to be referring to the subjective interpretation:

Well, I'm afraid other than the very literal take of the word (i.e. not falling apart on your hands), quality is, a lot of the time, a perceived notion that cannot always be quantified.

If by quality you mean "an essential or distinctive characteristic, property, or attribute: the chemical qualities of alcohol", that's objective.

If you mean "character with respect to fineness, or grade of excellence" then it becomes subjectively attached to whatever your notion of excellence is.

 

[ExplorersRock]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

There are definitions of quality that can be read as objective or subjective. KeeperOS claimed to be referring to the subjective interpretation:



If by quality you mean "an essential or distinctive characteristic, property, or attribute: the chemical qualities of alcohol", that's objective.

If you mean "character with respect to fineness, or grade of excellence" then it becomes subjectively attached to whatever your notion of excellence is.

Saying quality is subjective is relatvism and it's complete nonsense in the world of business. If you're trying to argue that quality is not something that can be defined unempiraclly or apriori, then I would agree. But saying such a thing is subjective is just plain wrong.

By the guidelines of rationalism, if I produce something that I call quality but to you is sub par, than you cannot argue with me that am I wrong because the only criteria that matters when I call it quality is my own. If that's what you are claiming than this whole thread and all of your arguments become moot.

If what you're saying is what satisfies one consumer as quality will not satisfy another, well DUH! That's why there is more than one level of quality produced by most companies in order to widen their customer base.

Other than trying to say, "I'm right and you all are wrong," is there a point to your responses? You really come off as being argumentative over things most people will agree on, and with little to gain. I don't understand your "modus-operandi."

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

C'mon guys. Please keep it civil. We're starting to get reports on this thread. We don't want to have to close it or give infractions.

Thanks,

 

[Securb]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

There are definitions of quality that can be read as objective or subjective. KeeperOS claimed to be referring to the subjective interpretation:

If by quality you mean "an essential or distinctive characteristic, property, or attribute: the chemical qualities of alcohol", that's objective.

If you mean "character with respect to fineness, or grade of excellence" then it becomes subjectively attached to whatever your notion of excellence is.

I am talking about "quality" in manufacturing as are you I was assuming. In this case "quality" is not an objective term. In looking at a pickup. There are multiple grades of plastic, metals, magnets and wires we can use to assemble the pickup itself. The "quality" of the components are not subjective but very measurable. There are manufaturing guidelines put into place and failure rate thresholds that must be recognized. The failure rates in China are much higher than they are in American manufacturing plants. This is not objective this is a fact. The materials (plastic, metals, magnets and wires) used to make a starter level OEM pickup will not be the same "grade" or "quality" of its American made counterpart. The bottomline is if we asked a manufacturing Quality Control Engineer if "quality" was subjective their answer would be a little more in line with mine.

I am not trying to spar with you I am just keeping it real.

 

[DreX]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

I am talking about "quality" in manufacturing as are you I was assuming. In this case "quality" is not an objective term. In looking at a pickup. There are multiple grades of plastic, metals, magnets and wires we can use to assemble the pickup itself. The "quality" of the components are not subjective but very measurable. There are manufaturing guidelines put into place and failure rate thresholds that must be recognized. The failure rates in China are much higher than they are in American manufacturing plants. This is not objective this is a fact. The materials (plastic, metals, magnets and wires) used to make a starter level OEM pickup will not be the same "grade" or "quality" of its American made counterpart. The bottomline is if we asked a manufacturing Quality Control Engineer if "quality" was subjective their answer would be a little more in line with mine.

I don't disagree with that, what I disagree with is the use of the overall generalization that things in China are made more cheaply as being used as a justification to a pay a lot more for US goods that share the same functionality otherwise. For as specific as the paragraph above is, it is still not making any reference to any particular effect pedal, pickup or guitar. People should not opt to spend three times as much on generalizations about manufacturing tolerances alone. If I'm going to spend $200 instead of $40, I want some specifics to assure me that the extra $160 is money well spent. Honestly, I'd pay $10-$20 more for a little extra QC, but not $160 more, thinking in terms of the average extended warranty cost.

I am not trying to spar with you I am just keeping it real.

Only on this forum are people so quick to interpret a casual back and forth as some kind of Internet combat. Disagreeing with people is not the same as being openly hostile.

 

[DreX]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

C'mon guys. Please keep it civil. We're starting to get reports on this thread. We don't want to have to close it or give infractions.

Thanks,

Just out of curiosity, what are the basis of the reports? Aside from some people saying "groan" and the like, this thread look pretty civil to me.

 

[DreX]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Saying quality is subjective is relatvism and it's complete nonsense in the world of business. If you're trying to argue that quality is not something that can be defined unempiraclly or apriori, then I would agree. But saying such a thing is subjective is just plain wrong.

OK, but reply to KeeperOS with this. The notion of quality in the subjective sense was an angle in support of domestic products that he advocated. I prefer to work with all things objective, when possible. When things are subjective, there is no right or wrong / plus or minus , and hence no real discussion to be had.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Goddammin.

You know what I really hate?

How lame vBulletin's ignore list is. New threads from dorks pop up. Hidden posts are displayed, just with no content. Quotes show up. WTF. Just `grep -v` everything and good is. WTF.