Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
Does that include those that their spouses extort their cash from them?
Does that include those that their spouses extort their cash from them?
Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
- Thread starter Evan Skopp
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Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
My wife extorts cash from me like a crime lord and I can still tuck $20 per month away. Bring your lunch to work, stop going to Starbucks everyday, quit the butts, kick the booze or god forbid get rid of your cable/internet and buy a great book. It is all about priorities.
My wife extorts cash from me like a crime lord and I can still tuck $20 per month away. Bring your lunch to work, stop going to Starbucks everyday, quit the butts, kick the booze or god forbid get rid of your cable/internet and buy a great book. It is all about priorities.
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
Is your wife Italian and have a cousin they call Mikey the fish?
Is your wife Italian and have a cousin they call Mikey the fish?
DreX
New member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
Fine, you can, in fact, assume anything you want, but rolling this back to the point, if you're saying "but it's only $200!" you're advancing to the assumption that giving business to the boutique pedal maker is virtuous, or $2,500 to Gibson for drawing the shape of an ES-335 a long ass time ago.
Ultimately the ethical issue remains a shade of gray, because on one side you have the interest of the individual, and on the other you have the interest of the public, and there are pros and cons to favoring one or the other. The reason cloning things in China is so popular to begin with is because their culture greatly favors the interests of the public, and that property rights are not as highly regarded in their society. The way I have to look at it is from the pragmatic POV of not spending $200 for something like an domestically produced overdrive pedal. If I do this, I'm ever so slightly decreasing the likelihood that more neat analogue pedals will be conceived of in the US, but there will still remain incentive to conceive them in China, where affordable pedals are made, just as the original Tube Screamer was conceived of in Japan, where those pedals were being produced, by the company that was producing them. In short, I don't want to spend an extra $100 for the benefit of American hobbyists who take a Tube Screamer and switch a few components out. If you were to ask me "how would you like it if Joyo stole your circuit?" , I'd reply that I should have anticipated it would be stolen to begin with, and considered that prior to undergoing the endeavor. It would only serve to reward misallocated effort. The reason boutique pedals are made in the US at all is out of passion for the guitar, not because it's a sound business model.
Fine, you can, in fact, assume anything you want, but rolling this back to the point, if you're saying "but it's only $200!" you're advancing to the assumption that giving business to the boutique pedal maker is virtuous, or $2,500 to Gibson for drawing the shape of an ES-335 a long ass time ago.
Ultimately the ethical issue remains a shade of gray, because on one side you have the interest of the individual, and on the other you have the interest of the public, and there are pros and cons to favoring one or the other. The reason cloning things in China is so popular to begin with is because their culture greatly favors the interests of the public, and that property rights are not as highly regarded in their society. The way I have to look at it is from the pragmatic POV of not spending $200 for something like an domestically produced overdrive pedal. If I do this, I'm ever so slightly decreasing the likelihood that more neat analogue pedals will be conceived of in the US, but there will still remain incentive to conceive them in China, where affordable pedals are made, just as the original Tube Screamer was conceived of in Japan, where those pedals were being produced, by the company that was producing them. In short, I don't want to spend an extra $100 for the benefit of American hobbyists who take a Tube Screamer and switch a few components out. If you were to ask me "how would you like it if Joyo stole your circuit?" , I'd reply that I should have anticipated it would be stolen to begin with, and considered that prior to undergoing the endeavor. It would only serve to reward misallocated effort. The reason boutique pedals are made in the US at all is out of passion for the guitar, not because it's a sound business model.
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AudioWonderland
New member
LReese
Sausage Gravy
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
I'd assume the same could be said about out hosts' business.
(In terms of pickups, well if I know about it at purchase time - its USA or no way)
I'd assume the same could be said about out hosts' business.
(In terms of pickups, well if I know about it at purchase time - its USA or no way)
DreX
New member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
It is, but SD mitigates the threat of Chinese knock offs with
- the custom shop, providing a service as well as a product
- the "Duncan Designed" line
- this forum, being personally involved with customers
- brand boosting / celebrity endorsements
But even if you take all that away, boutique makers still stay in business on account of:
- the myth that any guitar related product made in the US is better made than those made in the East
- our ability to relate to the proprietors on a cultural and/or personal level
- sense of patriotism
so being a boutique shop isn't strictly a bad business model, but it does rely on precarious circumstances.
It is, but SD mitigates the threat of Chinese knock offs with
- the custom shop, providing a service as well as a product
- the "Duncan Designed" line
- this forum, being personally involved with customers
- brand boosting / celebrity endorsements
But even if you take all that away, boutique makers still stay in business on account of:
- the myth that any guitar related product made in the US is better made than those made in the East
- our ability to relate to the proprietors on a cultural and/or personal level
- sense of patriotism
so being a boutique shop isn't strictly a bad business model, but it does rely on precarious circumstances.
Big Flannel
New member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
Given the option, I will always buy American made products if the produced item matches my needs.
Given the option, I will always buy American made products if the produced item matches my needs.
LReese
Sausage Gravy
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
Yep - I'll even go a few steps further...
I will gladly purchase a product from an foreign entity who take the step of manufacturing in the USA as well as provide supporting infrastructure in the USA. Example - A Toyota or Nissan product that is made in an US plant. Its apples and oranges with musical equipment but in my eyes the same applies.
That says nothing on the quality of a foreign made product - that really is dependent on the spec provided by the purchaser. I know the Japanese can make flipping good stuff. The Chinese too when they are given the resources.
In my eyes the purchasers typically (but not always) purchase for resale and there is an assumption that people want to buy cheap stuff. That's the real issue with the stuff in the big box store, IMO.
Yep - I'll even go a few steps further...
I will gladly purchase a product from an foreign entity who take the step of manufacturing in the USA as well as provide supporting infrastructure in the USA. Example - A Toyota or Nissan product that is made in an US plant. Its apples and oranges with musical equipment but in my eyes the same applies.
That says nothing on the quality of a foreign made product - that really is dependent on the spec provided by the purchaser. I know the Japanese can make flipping good stuff. The Chinese too when they are given the resources.
In my eyes the purchasers typically (but not always) purchase for resale and there is an assumption that people want to buy cheap stuff. That's the real issue with the stuff in the big box store, IMO.
Big Flannel
New member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
I completely agree. I like it when US citizens have jobs. I'll do my part as a consumer to keep them employed.
I completely agree. I like it when US citizens have jobs. I'll do my part as a consumer to keep them employed.
misterwhizzy
Well-known member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
But even that is tricky. If, and this is a big if, a machine can do work or make a product equal to or better than a skilled laborer, I have no problem with that business owner saving the money without sacrificing quality. That's one of the reasons manufacturing has been plummeting as an occupation in the States. We're just becoming more efficient.
At one point, the government passed a bill to build rails as a job creation measure. One of the stipulations was that the contractors were not allowed to use power tools to do the job so as to maximize workers. Milton Friedman heard about this and said, "Why not just make them use spoons?"
I agree in general with you, but I don't want to support stupidity in the name of patriotism.
But even that is tricky. If, and this is a big if, a machine can do work or make a product equal to or better than a skilled laborer, I have no problem with that business owner saving the money without sacrificing quality. That's one of the reasons manufacturing has been plummeting as an occupation in the States. We're just becoming more efficient.
At one point, the government passed a bill to build rails as a job creation measure. One of the stipulations was that the contractors were not allowed to use power tools to do the job so as to maximize workers. Milton Friedman heard about this and said, "Why not just make them use spoons?"
I agree in general with you, but I don't want to support stupidity in the name of patriotism.
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
As someone who actually lived in China for a number of years I can say your comments are misguided at best. There is one huge element lacking in chinese manufacturing and it is something they CANNOT afford if they did it would be just as expensive to produce goods there as it is anywhere else, that element is quality. I will never forget the day when talking with a company about producing jewelry and giving the specs of 14k gold and being offered brass and telling them no it wasnt acceptable and being met with a question. "Why not? it looks exactly the same so it is the same"
I get it your cool with supporting that sort of system but me I cant even if its in a small way. Sure its impossible in this day and age to not buy at least a portion of your goods from chinese sources but in those cases where i have a choice I will make it.
There is no magnanimous "for the good of the community" culture in China. China exploits its people because it has them in such excess. Those that complain are replaced, those that complain a lot disappear and their families are told they went to another city to look for work. Do you know when I was living in china they passed a law it said that the govt could no longer come to your home after 10pm or before 6am to force you to move so they could demolish it. This means the govt was free any day any time to just decide we want the property you live in and the people are told with usually zero notice to move. (They do that so that people cant protest before hand then those that protest afterwords are "relocated")
Do you know there is a literal education gap in china? That under Mao literally university professors and professionals were forced to work in the fields and farmers taught in the universities? That students were told to write their own text books? Guess what this did for education in the country? This is why copying became the name of the game in the PRC. They literally had no engineers and to this day are still playing catch up in many fields. They still hire a ton of outside engineers and designers because on the whole their system is lacking in it.
As someone who actually lived in China for a number of years I can say your comments are misguided at best. There is one huge element lacking in chinese manufacturing and it is something they CANNOT afford if they did it would be just as expensive to produce goods there as it is anywhere else, that element is quality. I will never forget the day when talking with a company about producing jewelry and giving the specs of 14k gold and being offered brass and telling them no it wasnt acceptable and being met with a question. "Why not? it looks exactly the same so it is the same"
I get it your cool with supporting that sort of system but me I cant even if its in a small way. Sure its impossible in this day and age to not buy at least a portion of your goods from chinese sources but in those cases where i have a choice I will make it.
There is no magnanimous "for the good of the community" culture in China. China exploits its people because it has them in such excess. Those that complain are replaced, those that complain a lot disappear and their families are told they went to another city to look for work. Do you know when I was living in china they passed a law it said that the govt could no longer come to your home after 10pm or before 6am to force you to move so they could demolish it. This means the govt was free any day any time to just decide we want the property you live in and the people are told with usually zero notice to move. (They do that so that people cant protest before hand then those that protest afterwords are "relocated")
Do you know there is a literal education gap in china? That under Mao literally university professors and professionals were forced to work in the fields and farmers taught in the universities? That students were told to write their own text books? Guess what this did for education in the country? This is why copying became the name of the game in the PRC. They literally had no engineers and to this day are still playing catch up in many fields. They still hire a ton of outside engineers and designers because on the whole their system is lacking in it.
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
DreX
New member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
I've read your thoughts on this in past threads, but the point is that the perception alone that Made in USA = good, Made Over There = bad, is a boon to the sales of all sorts of domestically produced guitar accessories, without respect to merit.
I've read your thoughts on this in past threads, but the point is that the perception alone that Made in USA = good, Made Over There = bad, is a boon to the sales of all sorts of domestically produced guitar accessories, without respect to merit.
Agileguy_101
Master of his Domain
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
+1. I support American businesses as much as possible, especially those that manufacture their products in America. For example - I have Strymon products, a Timeline and a Mobius, and have owned a few of their other pedals, all of which are designed and manufactured in CA. However, I also own an Eventide H9, which while designed in America was manufactured in Asia. I own the H9 because there is no other product like it, and buying something else just to buy American would have meant I did not have the same features that I love having in the H9.
tl;dr - I support American products and manufacturing when they are better or equal, but if there's a foreign made product that is not rivaled by an American made product I will buy that.
+1. I support American businesses as much as possible, especially those that manufacture their products in America. For example - I have Strymon products, a Timeline and a Mobius, and have owned a few of their other pedals, all of which are designed and manufactured in CA. However, I also own an Eventide H9, which while designed in America was manufactured in Asia. I own the H9 because there is no other product like it, and buying something else just to buy American would have meant I did not have the same features that I love having in the H9.
tl;dr - I support American products and manufacturing when they are better or equal, but if there's a foreign made product that is not rivaled by an American made product I will buy that.
misterwhizzy
Well-known member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
I thought the Germans typically had high wages and relatively high unemployment, but that statistic is from a while ago. I'm too lazy to Google it. Is that no longer the case?
I thought the Germans typically had high wages and relatively high unemployment, but that statistic is from a while ago. I'm too lazy to Google it. Is that no longer the case?
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
But there is merit in it. Find me a single chinese made product that they havent cut corners on. When you go down the cost saving route something has got to give, Usually thats quality.
But there is merit in it. Find me a single chinese made product that they havent cut corners on. When you go down the cost saving route something has got to give, Usually thats quality.
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
Would win up political to answer that but but the point I was making was that even though Germany excels at being efficient (their whole dirty little secret is productivity) it hasnt driven away manufacturing jobs.
Would win up political to answer that but but the point I was making was that even though Germany excels at being efficient (their whole dirty little secret is productivity) it hasnt driven away manufacturing jobs.
Big Flannel
New member
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape
I totally get where you're coming from, though and its a good point.
Well I have a funny feeling that you and I both agree that the Government doesn't create jobs.
I totally get where you're coming from, though and its a good point.
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