How many watts do you really need?

[Humphrey Bear]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

Is the 300watt Crate Blue Voodoo head good and loud enough for home use?
I want to use it for bedroom practising.

 

[some_dude]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

Ok we all know 100 watts is way too much but how much watts should a person really have? In my case i do not play in a band but would only jam with friends or practice alone. I was considering the dsl401 this summer but then after reconsidering it, would i be able to do what i mentioned with a dsl201 20 watt combo? I do not plan on gigging right now and just want a good sounding tube amp. Also i may only play with say a drummer just for fun. I wnat the volume managable ad be able to push the tubes and get a good sound. So would the dsl201 be a good choice or should i pay thee xtra cash and get the dsl401? As far as i know but i may be wrong the dls401 can be hooked up to cabs while the dsl201 can not be hooked up to any cabinets.

Also just wondering how much do the two amps differ in cost? I live in canada in toronto ontario so im not sure how the prices would translate.

What kind of music do like to play?

Do you want a:
1) distorted amp with so/so cleans
2) Clean amp with so/so distortion
3) Good all around amp (good cleans/good distortion)

What's your price range?

 

[some_dude]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

Generally, it takes 10x the power, for 2x the loudness. So, it takes 10 watts to go twice as loud as a 1 watt, and 100 watts to go twice as loud as a 10 watt. (Assuming equivalent speaker efficiency's.)

I thought it was closer to 5:1?

As in a 100w amp is twice as loud as a 20w amp (in general)?

 

[southadc]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

Generally, it takes 10x the power, for 2x the loudness. So, it takes 10 watts to go twice as loud as a 1 watt, and 100 watts to go twice as loud as a 10 watt. (Assuming equivalent speaker efficiency's.)

Also, the RMS = continuous power is a bit of a misnomer. RMS has nothing to do with continuous output power. Used in this context, its a marketing term left over from the 70's and 80's audio specs. Manufacturers used it, mistakenly, to refer to the continuous power output of their amps.

RMS does, in fact, stand for "root/mean/squared", but its a technique for calculating the average power of a AC signal, made up of combination of different frequencies. But it doesn't mean "continuous power". FYI

Phew, it is logarithmic then, I was chancing my arm there for a minute :22:

As I side note, the reason RMS is used rather than an arithmetic mean is because the arithmetic mean would turn out to be zero (think a sinusoidal wave going, say, +10v, -10v, +10v, -10v).

 

[southadc]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

I thought it was closer to 5:1?

As in a 100w amp is twice as loud as a 20w amp (in general)?

(Chances arm again)

I'm sure someone who knows more about electronics can chime in and correct me, but I thought the output in dB was proportional to the log of the signal voltage over the reference voltage, which is why the power needs to go up by a factor of ten for a two-fold increase in loudness?

I guess it's not as simple as that though - I remember reading somewhere that the volume of the cabinet the speakers are in and whether it's got a closed back or not can affect how much air the amp moves and so how loud it seems to be.

What I do know is that my amp is a 100W 4 x 12 half stack and it is too loud to use at home all the time - I really have to play about with the volume control to try and set it to a low enough setting without losing the sound altogether.

 

[strat_master]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

What kind of music do like to play?

Do you want a:
1) distorted amp with so/so cleans
2) Clean amp with so/so distortion
3) Good all around amp (good cleans/good distortion)

What's your price range?

I think ill go with numero 3. And my price rane is about a 1000 bucks in cnadian give or take a hundred either way.

 

[strat_master]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

i also recently read i think here somewhere that the price of the dsl's have gone up?

 

[some_dude]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

For that price, I'd go used. Way more bang for your buck. And if you can find one in a private sale (like ebay), you avoid the 15% tax.

- Mesa Single Rectifier (50w Ok cleans, Great Distortion, easily modded to EL34 tubes if that's the sound you want)
- Mesa F-50 or F-30 (50w and 30w respectively, Great Cleans, Good to Great Distortion)
- Marshall JCM 600 (50w, Good Clean, Good Distortion)
- Marshall DSL 201/401 (Never tried it, but I've heard it's good)
- VOX Valvetronics AD15VT (15w) & AD30VT (30w) - I think they also make a 60w - the Valvetronics is a modeling amp, perfect for bedroom stuff, and lots of sounds to choose from, so you don't get tired of it. It also uses a real tube, unlike the Line6. I don't know what they cost.
- Line 6 Spyder II (good practice amp at low volumes, won't hold up when cranked)

 

[strat_master]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

daisy u bring up a good point

guys how would a 30 watt amp fair???? I would really liek to consider a f-30 mesa series amp also. 30 watts happy medium and sounds good? the price is cheaper i think than the marshalls. also it says that the f-30 is dyna watt power? i noticed it also does not use mesa regular 6L6 tubes and instead uses EL84's??? this a huge differnemce?

 

[Artie]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

(Chances arm again)

I'm sure someone who knows more about electronics can chime in and correct me, but I thought the output in dB was proportional to the log of the signal voltage over the reference voltage, which is why the power needs to go up by a factor of ten for a two-fold increase in loudness?

I guess it's not as simple as that though - I remember reading somewhere that the volume of the cabinet the speakers are in and whether it's got a closed back or not can affect how much air the amp moves and so how loud it seems to be.

What I do know is that my amp is a 100W 4 x 12 half stack and it is too loud to use at home all the time - I really have to play about with the volume control to try and set it to a low enough setting without losing the sound altogether.

I can never remember the actual formula, and I don't have my reference books in front of me, but its definitely a 10:1 ratio, all other factors being equal. Once you start changing speakers and cabinets, you have a whole 'nother ball of beans - hill of wax, - whatever.

 

[Norman_T]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

daisy u bring up a good point

guys how would a 30 watt amp fair???? I would really liek to consider a f-30 mesa series amp also. 30 watts happy medium and sounds good? the price is cheaper i think than the marshalls. also it says that the f-30 is dyna watt power? i noticed it also does not use mesa regular 6L6 tubes and instead uses EL84's??? this a huge differnemce?

If I was you I would go for the F50 - this will give you the option of changing the tubes from 6L6 to EL84 and is very simple to use because of the re-bias that is built in. Try both the F30 and the F50 and see which one you like best.

 

[some_dude]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

daisy u bring up a good point

guys how would a 30 watt amp fair???? I would really liek to consider a f-30 mesa series amp also. 30 watts happy medium and sounds good? the price is cheaper i think than the marshalls. also it says that the f-30 is dyna watt power? i noticed it also does not use mesa regular 6L6 tubes and instead uses EL84's??? this a huge differnemce?

The EL84's are a low power power tube. Some people swear by their tone. Then again, other people swear by 6L6s. It comes down to a try both and see what you like thing.

A 30w Mesa is a good small venue amp, and it'll hold it's own against a drummer, provided the drummer isn't Animal (the muppet).

 

[southadc]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

I can never remember the actual formula, and I don't have my reference books in front of me, but its definitely a 10:1 ratio, all other factors being equal. Once you start changing speakers and cabinets, you have a whole 'nother ball of beans - hill of wax, - whatever.

:hijacked: Thanks Artie, you just confirmed what I was explaining to my brother (who also plays guitar) earlier - if you were to take a 4 x 12 cab, then try connecting a 100 watt head to it followed by a 300 watt head, it wouldn't be 3 x louder. However, if for the same head, you were to change the cab for a bigger one with a closed back rather than an open back, it would seem louder.

We were talking about whether it was worth him investing in a Marshall mode 4, but I felt it was a bit excessive

 

[Hellion]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

I prefer lower wattage amps. Hey look at BB King and a bunch of those guys use small amps cranked for wonderful tone. .....

Actually, the last time I saw BB King in 1998, he was playing through a 100 watt Lab Series amp. He still sounded like God.

I don't think 100 watts is too much. My own system is 160 in stereo, 80 per side. I've backed it down a bit from 190. You have to remember that you're not always putting out 100 watts or 50 watts or whatever, that's just what you have on demand. I don't like working with any less than a 50 watt amp. That way you've always got some headroom and you can always turn down.

 

[strat_master]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

BUT for the mesa f 30 combo what doe sit mean by dyna power? is that some sort os solid state thing?

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

I get by with a 40 watt class a/b amp, and that's in a nine piece band with a three piece horn section. Sometimes I'd like a little more clean headroom, but my amp breaks up at just the right point for most gigs.

So the general suggestion that a 50 watt amp will suffice is about right to me. Loud enough to stay clean to a point and not so loud that you can't overdrive it without eradicating all rodents in a ten mile redius.

 

[strat_master]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

Also whats the differnce between calss A or B?

 

[Artie]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

:hijacked: Thanks Artie, you just confirmed what I was explaining to my brother (who also plays guitar) earlier - if you were to take a 4 x 12 cab, then try connecting a 100 watt head to it followed by a 300 watt head, it wouldn't be 3 x louder.

Ok, I found the formula: its db = 10 log(Power 1 / Power 2)

So: 10 log(300/100) = 4.77 db

3db is considered the smallest change the human ear can detect, so 4.77db would be just noticable.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

BUT for the mesa f 30 combo what doe sit mean by dyna power? is that some sort os solid state thing?

Dyna power is some buzzword invented by mesa to suggest they get a bit more power out a standard tube power stage than other manufacturers. I think it works, to some degree.

If clean headroom is not so much of a priority, a 30 watt amp may be fine. Much of your decision will then rest on whether you like el84 tubes instead of 6l6s.

Generally, class A amps are louder than class a/b amps.

 

[Artie]

Re: How many watts do you really need?

Also whats the differnce between calss A or B?

A class B amp uses one device for the negative side of the waveform, and another for the positive side. So, you get a slight "switching" delay as it goes from one device to the other - called "notch-distortion".

Class A uses one device biased in the middle to eliminate notch-distortion for a cleaner sound. The trade-off is that class A runs real hot, and is using 50% power at zero volume.