Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

[beaubrummels]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I don't understand why you guys cannot accept that DreX is asking valid, intelligent questions. Clearly he should have been included on the design team for these pickups. Now that Frank has had the opportunity to experience his superior intellect, maybe he'll remember to hire DreX for the next project. Just think of how awesome the outcome would be!

It would never be designed then. The meeting would go on for 15 pages because one person always had to have the last word.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

It would never be designed then. The meeting would go on for 15 pages because one person always had to have the last word.

pffttthheheh

"all right, let's turn those machines on and get winding"
"now I have to disagree with this idea..."
"err...what, making pickups?
"I'd prefer to call it crafting..."
"..."
"..."
"ooohK-"
"LAST WORD"

but seriously, someone please post some more videos of this. In fact I'd like to see these in a variety of bodies and even a semihollow if I could...I love my Godin Radiator and I think it deserves good puppies.

 

[dominus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I'd like to own a guitar I felt worthy of putting these in. If I manage to wrangle a Paul Reed Smith someday...

But these could make any guitar you put them in sound better than any of your others. Seriously, I'd toss these into any $100-ish guitar I own. Sure, it would double the value...

I'd actually be curious if these impart their own sound to the guitar like EMGs do. That may not be a bad thing, depending on what you're looking for.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Hey I'm really glad you brought that up. It's a great article but has almost nothing to do with Fluence. The patented coils are every bit as much a part of the magic as to why they behave the way they do. Each coil layer is linear-one on top of the other. That means unlike a typical coil, the "winding" or signal path isn't going up and down, close to the strings, further from the strings, etc. A typical electric guitar coil has a good bulk of it's wire very far away from the strings. This generates a lot of phase incoherence, resulting in a lot of smearing across the various frequency ranges. It's the reason most coils, even if you could EQ them to go from sound A to sound B, can't really deliver the same experience as pickup B because there are physical limitations.

The Fluence coil isn't so much about producing a sound that is flat, as it is a sound that is pure. Dynamically, it's more alive than anything else I've played, even Zephyrs. All of the frequencies are there, more importantly they're much more time aligned. Phase anomalies are no longer a limiting factor in the voicing. The magnetic circuit design can still impart phase anomalies via scattered and conflicting flux patterns, but that's 100% intentional. That's more about the feel differences between a PAF and an EMG with blades for example.

Nothing about Fluence's clarity and detail is based upon the old notion that you can use a weaker coil and boost it with a preamp. It's an inherent part of the coil's ability to listen to what the string is doing. It's like suggesting that you could take a microphone that is 10 feet away from an acoustic guitar, and EQ it to sound like it was 8 inches away. It's like saying you could poorly place an SM57 toward your cabinet and EQ it to sound like it was placed correctly. You can't restore phase issues with EQ. One way I could describe the Fluence coils would be "in focus". Even under tremendous amounts of gain it's totally apparent in an A/B comparison. And when people describe it as "fast" it's literally because you're shaving response time off. It's something you can feel the moment you plug in.

Thanks for going into so much detail. I really wish the Fishman promo materials talked more about how the Fluence is unique (everything you're saying) and less about how it's the same (hum reduction -- been around since the 50's). IMO "new and improved" is a much better sell then "two voicings & noise free", but I gotta be honest, I'm not sure what the phase incoherence you speak of is, and how it manifests audibly.

It's said that Lace Sensor pickups accomplish their magic by also having a smaller coil and focusing their magnetic field close to the strings, and the Lace Alumitones are essentially hollow below the surface, said to use "90% less fine copper wire" than a typical pickups, do those pickups avoid phase issues you're describing by the same virtue?

Securb has played them and is trying to communicate what everyone who has played them has felt; that "a-ha" moment where they get it. Maybe you'll have your moment.

That's the thing about "try it, you'll like it", this too is said of a lot of pickups. I might get to two voiced Fluences down the road, but there are just so many pickups to try out. I just received a set of SSL-1s waiting to go into a Strat, a legendary set that shares a lot of the same adjectives that describe the Fluences, and a favorite of John Frusciante.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

It's said that Lace Sensor pickups accomplish their magic by also having a smaller coil and focusing their magnetic field close to the strings, and the Lace Alumitones are essentially hollow below the surface, said to use "90% less fine copper wire" than a typical pickups, do those pickups avoid phase issues you're describing by the same virtue?

I'm not certain what can be divulged, but, for what it's worth, I'm also interested to know this...

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

There is basically zero in common with a Lace Sensor or Alumitone. Like, ZERO things. It's not even being unwilling to divulge trade secrets, there's just nothing I can say. Go through everything that makes those Lace pickups what they are, and then cross everything off the list of comparisons. There is basically zero shared science, aside from the fact they both utilize magnets.

 

[Stratman]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Guys…

I purchased a set for one of my Stratocaster with the battery pack for it!

I have a lot of guitars and play to live (e.g. make money)

I love these pups (Will be selling a lot of DiMarzio, Lollar, and Seymour Duncan pups soon)
Fishman Fluence pickups have to be felt at the same time that you hear them, they are so different than anything else out there (Yes, I know it a new idea - that is not what I mean!).

I have tried this setup in a Ash bodied Stratocaster with a number of different amps, pedals, multi-pedals, etc… AND in different bar environments where normal single coil (Including humbugging designs) have some buzzing into background. There is no buzz with these pups, just that instant clear, clean response in sync, that you can feel as well as hear! Notes seem to jump out, where those notes played out before (Same guitar and amps)

Anyone who has not play them, just cannot begin to understand how they sound or that you can fell notes / tone as you play.

Regarding voice 1 and voice 2, voice 2 raises the output to a distortion level, without distracting distortion. The only ‘poor’ comparison I can think of is a Eric Clapton stratocaster turn about ¾’s up on the mid-range boost. But it’s not even that, it is better. That BUE wire takes away the highs - would work well on a bridge tele reduce the ice-pick effect, if Fishman even make a set of Fluence ’Tele’ pickups…

So, my suggestion is to save money, not buy pedals etc…. and then take your hard earned money and get a set of these pickups. (Sorry Seymour, they just sound better than all others including SD pups)

—- TO FISHMAN —-

Add more detailed schematics to your support page, the installation manual does not match the installation schematic for that blue wire…

 

[Securb]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Anyone who has not play them, just cannot begin to understand how they sound or that you can fell notes / tone as you play.

Well said they have to be experienced to really feel and hear the difference. It is like hearing a CD for the first time. Trying to describe the Fluence pickups is like trying to describe a sunset to a blind man. It is not about the EQ and tone of the pickup, it is more about the clarity, attack and response.

Sorry Seymour, they just sound better than all others including SD pups

They certainly sound phenomenal and blew me away but I will refrain from the term "better". That is a very subjective term and I am sure like any pickup the Fluence will not be for everybody. There are some great tones I get with my Duncans, DiMarzios and Lollers that I will never be willing to part with. However, I am getting ready to put a set of Fluence humbuckers in one of my guitars to add that flavor to my stable of tones.

 

[Stratman]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Anyone wonders about these pickups, go to FrankFalbo’s web site to listen to them

PS: Frank - nice picking!

 

[dominus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Eagerly awaiting the death metal demos.

(Being serious, just came across a grindcore/death metal-ish demo of a Perpetual Burn:

http://soundcloud.com/eric-bauer-power-hour/222bpm-grind-jam-complete

Obviously, not me playing.)

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I don't understand why you guys cannot accept that DreX is asking valid, intelligent questions. Clearly he should have been included on the design team for these pickups. Now that Frank has had the opportunity to experience his superior intellect, maybe he'll remember to hire DreX for the next project. Just think of how awesome the outcome would be!

It would never be designed then. The meeting would go on for 15 pages because one person always had to have the last word.

It would be like the car Homer Simpson designed.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[Securb]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Eagerly awaiting the death metal demos.

(Being serious, just came across a grindcore/death metal-ish demo of a Perpetual Burn:

http://soundcloud.com/eric-bauer-power-hour/222bpm-grind-jam-complete

Obviously, not me playing.)

I think (I know) you are going to be seeing more "metal" content when the humbuckers hit the streets. Ken Suki from Unearth is a Fluence evangelist and touring musician, he absolutely loves them. Ken is using the classic set in his Les Paul. The pickups are also finding their way into the axes of some of the biggest names in metal. I can't mention any just yet but here is a clip of Ken's playing style (pre Fishman).

 

[Oinkus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Now I need a guitar to put them in gee whiz ? I guess I could fix my original strat setup SSS with a set of those in say a Squire 70s Vintage Modified around $250 new and then toss a set of fluence in there eventually. Trying to save up so I can get Manticorefx to build me a super klone. Might help if I could get paid for work I did 4 months ago , musicians are next to impossible to deal with anything that involves money.Did the math and it comes out to around $838 bucks total for the guitar and all the pieces and parts , total rewire and hardware replacement plus the battery pack. Do all the work myself and of course take the finish off the neck too and tung oil it , so around $500 bucks of billable labor for the entire job. Finished around $1300 and will be a monster smoking hot death machine of serious versatility. Endofstory for now...

 

[dominus]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

I think (I know) you are going to be seeing more "metal" content when the humbuckers hit the streets.

They need to hit the streets soon. I've been in a swapping mood lately.

I'd actually be interested in the modern set, and then install each pickup into the bridge on two guitars.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

There is basically zero in common with a Lace Sensor or Alumitone. Like, ZERO things. It's not even being unwilling to divulge trade secrets, there's just nothing I can say. Go through everything that makes those Lace pickups what they are, and then cross everything off the list of comparisons. There is basically zero shared science, aside from the fact they both utilize magnets.

Any knowledge you can impart about how pickups work in general is greatly appreciated. Some people like the fact that how their guitar makes beautiful sounds is a big mystery to them, but I prefer to know how the magic works.

You had said "A typical electric guitar coil has a good bulk of it's wire very far away from the strings. This generates a lot of phase incoherence", I gather that you're citing the geometry as the cause of phase incoherence, but something they share in common is the spatial fact that their componentry is close to the strings. Does the difference in how the two pickups work causes one to exhibit more or less phase incoherence than the other, regardless of the geometric similarity?

What does phase incoherence in a guitar pickup sound like? How do I know if I'm hearing it or not hearing it? Googling "guitar pickup 'phase incoherence'" doesn't return anything in the context of single coil pickups, all the mentions are with respect to acoustic guitars or microphone placement, so any information you can provide on it's applicability to traditional pickups will be new to me and apparently new to Google.

One interesting thing I did come across when Googling "phase incoherence", though, was a quote from Rick Turner that makes it sound as though phase incoherence, as well as a lack of "fast"ness, is a desirable sound, at least in the context of piezo pickups in acoustics:

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/rick_turner_the_father_of_boutique_guitars?page=3

“The other issue with undersaddle pickups is that, compared to an acoustic guitar, they are relatively phase-coherent,” Turner continues. “But the sound of an acoustic guitar is phase incoherent. It’s all screwed up, because it takes time for the frequencies to propagate out into a top and release into the acoustic field—and it takes different amounts of time for different frequencies. And then you’ve got the low sound coming out of the soundhole, which is also phase incorrect. So what we have come to love is the phase incoherency of acoustic instruments. With a piezo, you’re so close to the string that you’re actually intercepting the vibration before it gets to the guitar. One of the reasons that the piezo sound is so in-your-face is because the highs are coming at you too fast."

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

They need to hit the streets soon. I've been in a swapping mood lately.

I'd actually be interested in the modern set, and then install each pickup into the bridge on two guitars.

My issue is I would want the Modern bucker for the bridge a middle single and a classic bucker for the neck.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

One interesting thing I did come across when Googling "phase incoherence", though, was a quote from Rick Turner that makes it sound as though phase incoherence, as well as a lack of "fast"ness, is a desirable sound, at least in the context of piezo pickups in acoustics:

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/rick_turner_the_father_of_boutique_guitars?page=3

What Rick is talking about here is something completely different. Though I have to admit I've never heard "phase incoherence" used in connection with electric guitar pickups, so I can't say what it is or what it sounds like.

What Rick was talking about is the time it takes for a note of an acoustic guitar to "bloom" from the moment the string starts to vibrate until the note starts its decay upon leaving the sound hole. One of the innovations of Mama Bear is what we call "3D EQ." Normally EQ is based on two parameters: frequency and amplitude. With 3D EQ, we get "time" in there as well. And that has to do with the digital emulations of the source instruments and creating models that account for the way a note on an acoustic guitar changes over time.

 

[DreX]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

What Rick is talking about here is something completely different. Though I have to admit I've never heard "phase incoherence" used in connection with electric guitar pickups, so I can't say what it is or what it sounds like.

What Rick was talking about is the time it takes for a note of an acoustic guitar to "bloom" from the moment the string starts to vibrate until the note starts its decay upon leaving the sound hole. One of the innovations of Mama Bear is what we call "3D EQ." Normally EQ is based on two parameters: frequency and amplitude. With 3D EQ, we get "time" in there as well. And that has to do with the digital emulations of the source instruments and creating models that account for the way a note on an acoustic guitar changes over time.

That's very cool, it's hard to love the raw piezo sound.

A lot of people say they like the "bloom" aspect of old unpotted PAFs, does anything interesting happen if you plug a typical electric guitar into a a Mama Bear?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

Rick's a smart guy, and a friend. He does understand these things, and what he says about the Piezo in an acoustic guitar is correct, but almost inversely proportionate for electric guitar. Perhaps a thread like this is more what you're looking for?: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t35354/
Rick chimes in toward the end, and we spend much more time on details. The short version is that small delays and stacking up of different sound sources will produce anomalies that are not EQ based. Learn about things like comb filtering, and how you can't just EQ those things back into a sound. And even if you could, they change and move with every different note you'd play because they vary based on the harmonic stacking. Even things like outside strings that have no magnet on the other side of them, vs inside strings that have strings and magnets on both sides all play a role in what we've become accustomed to hearing through our past experiences, but also what we want to hear, and the two are indeed different.

Taken a little bit deeper, the phase anomalies that we can impart into the sound that are the result of the magnetic field, as in stray flux lines, conflicting flux patterns, etc. are all desirable. It's why a Strat pickup responds like a Strat pickup, and a Strat pickup with a blade, or steel poles and Ceramic base magnets just aren't "right". Inductance and tonal spectrum aside, the flux disturbance is a large part of when we know a pickup is right, and when it feels wrong. That, however is NOT exclusively the phase incoherence I'm referring to within the coil layers. That's different. To bring that element into focus; to reduce things like group delay there, is pretty much a universal win/win for everyone. That's the part where people say "It sounds like my 54 Strat, but better" (and yes that's an actual quote from a respected industry veteran WITH an actual 54 Strat...original)

How does this play out practically? Take a vintage strat pickup for example, like those SSL-1's you've just received. They are excellent pickups, until you want something slightly different. Traditional pickup making is wrought with compromise, which is why there are so many different (and valid) models. Its like squeezing a balloon. You get one part right and something else pops up somewhere else. You get this part big and the other part is small. Such is the life of a pickup maker: "I love it but can I have just a little more "X?" and the answer is "Yes, but you'll lose a little "Y" but I can compensate for that by doing a bunch of other things" and eventually the player is happy...for a while anyway The freedoms inherent in this technology are staggering.

 

[Securb]

Re: Incoming New Pickup Day (Fishman Fluence)

My issue is I would want the Modern bucker for the bridge a middle single and a classic bucker for the neck.

All the pickups are listed as individual parts on the Fishman site. I am sure you will be able to mix and match, Fishman has always been good about that. Keep in mind there are two Modern buckers a ceramic and an Alinco. You will be seeing these OEM in guitars soon so you will have the option to walk into a store and try a set out in a live axe.