Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

[Phantasmagoria]

Here's the thing, I just googled a bunch of random blogs/websites etc..just wondering if maybe I was missing something that was really amazing about it (...turns out I was'nt)



Here's the average general consensus to the question "is theory a nessessity for rock/metal guitar?" Universal Answer: "no" (but it can/will help you do...blah..blah..blah..) the bracketed part being kind of vague ..ranging from "it's a great way to communicate"


(OT but Here's my band communicating..)





(...whoah..we managed without theory :lmao



....to "nice to know what your doing & how that stuff works" (Why? If I'm doing it already & have no interest in how that stuff works as long as it works. I watch TV..no idea or desire to know how that works either..some goes for my washing machine, cooker, car etc..)

Almost all the articles I read agreed that it did not affect the act of playing in any way ..almost all agreed that your ears were instrumental for that...



Fun fact..

In almost all the "answers" to questions in the comments sections the only belligerent self-important bigoted ******* was the one demanding that everyone had to know theory and insisting that it was'nt possible to play **** decently without it.



For example....this was in the comments section of one blog...and as usual...


level 1
Woland99
2 points
·
4 years ago
Not sure why would anybody ask that?
Because what? you are too lazy to learn some theory and because you think you have a shot on being Jimmy Page?
Well you don't (have a shot). And you have even less shot if you do not learn theory. Most of guitar hobbyists are not able to devote exorbitant amount of time to playing so playing smart, practicing smart is important. And without theory you are lacking the basic language to analyze and compartmentalize information you acquire. So your learning process is slower. Your interaction with other musicians is slower. And unless you are blessed with incredible ears your playing will evolve slower.

·
4 years ago
Hot damn, not sure what you're so pissed at bro... I just wanted to see what people thought about this question. Why you gotta be so rude?



4 years ago
Sorry if you feel offended. I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page. As hobbyist (and one with even above average talent) you simply CANNOT AFFORD to bypass theory. Unless your goal is to spend some time on harmless fiddling with guitar.



Yeah..^^^ familiar stuff indeed.. it usually follows the same pattern as you politely assert (like you would to a dogged Jehovah's witness) "I'm fine without it..thanks"



Other stuff they're fond of saying:

1. "can't help those who won't help themselves" (conveniently forgetting that you did'nt ever ask for their help & you're getting along just fine already..)

2."You'll be stuck in the blues scale" ...firstly "so what?" ..Practically every blues/rock legend out there was stuck in the blues scale..many sound/sounded phenomenal.
....& secondly ..wrong. You won't.

3. *Insert high falutin' theory-speak jargon of your choice* here " ____________________________ " ......it's meant to assert their credentials as masters of theory and dazzle you with words that they know mean nothing to you... (and you could'nt be less impressed about ..but they don't know that!)

4. "you're ignorant" / (criticize your music) - Well that's a huge favorite ...even as they will get righteously enraged in other posts about those who criticize other's players/bands music :lmao:

5. *Will talk like hell about how well they play & all the clever theory-inspired moves they make when they're playing (..most of which you will never hear)* / *will reassert how stubborn/ignorant/untalented etc* you are and will also insult you in other ways like mention your "smugness"/ "ego" (when they're the ones severely butthurt/having sissy-fits 'cause you did'nt pucker up and say "how right you are..I'm seeing the error of my ways") / "mention all perceived "mistakes/shortcomings" etc...which they will gleefully point out as being technically "wrong" even when it's amply clear that it fits & sounds just fine and many players they hold up as "amazing" play out of the box too. As a last resort they will search for other stuff to criticise such as tone/equipment/recording etc... failing which they will ignore you & sulk :lmao:


Yeah...that's some of the usual stuff one comes across from the ever-tolerant "theory or you're nothing" brigade.. plus a lot more asshattery as well...


..so yeah...pretty much everything I read just reasserted what I felt about things/people before I decided to research things. it's my view that I don't require any further theory at all to continue playing what I'm playing the way I like playing it :bigthumb:




Anyone with differeing views feel free to add your two bits..






..

 

[devastone]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Required, no. Does at least some basic theory help, yes.

*EDIT* Nevermind, just saw the music theory question thread that got closed. So, apparently the 2nd part of my answer is wrong to you. But from personal experience, knowing some music theory is invaluable to me, especially in situations where I have to read a chord chart and come up with solos on the spot. And if you think that Vai, Petrucci, Satch, and even Page (he was a studio player for years before the Yardbirds and LZ) just forget about theory when they are playing, you are sorely mistaken. They just know it so well, it's like talking. I mean, you don't consciously think about grammar and sentence structure when you are having a conversation with someone, but you use it constantly.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Learning about the musical world you live in in never a bad idea. But like anything, it is how you cling to those beliefs that matter.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

So that' basically 2 more "NO"s (followed by "but's...) to the question.

And yeah...I think it's possible that at least some of those guys forget about theory and completely follow their ears. Don't think I'm sorely mistaken about it either..but then there's no way to know is there? It's even more likely that they they all use their ears way..way more than they're thinking theoretical concepts when they're out there soloing. Lastly, great players though they are, they make mistakes and **** up like anyone else...so theoretical knowledge, (if any....and ^ I have my doubts about that) when applied in real time as they're playing does't seem to help much with that or make them "perfect"..so why would I need it & what am I really missing?

I learn about the musical world I live in ...just not much theory.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Not required at all -Developing your ear is more important than theory -but learning theory is one of the best ways to do that -but not the only way.

I would learn the basic theory for sure -just so you can communicate with other musicians effectively.

But advanced theory or not -make sure your only development is not just THEORY -otherwise you will play like a boring robot most times.

Ever jammed with a music degreed academic based musician whose never wrote their own stuff or played in bands? It's usually underwhelming.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

You can make good music without any uber advanced theory, but it depends on where you draw the line for uber advanced and what style of guitar you are playing. If you play campfire acoustic and all you know about theory is how to make a chord and how they work well together, that's all you need. If you want to play lead guitar for a blues rock band, you will need to learn scales and how the notes interact with each other.

One thing people forget when mentioning theory is that the more you play guitar the more you start to pick up the ins and outs of music, both consciously and subconsciously. We often attribute it to skill, but most of what skill is when it comes to guitar is knowing how to apply music theory (which can be applied through formal book learning and/or just playing a lot). So while book learning of music theory can certainly streamline the process, just plain exploring the fretboard will work too.

If all else fails, find a punk rock band.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Sounds like the OP's mind is already made up. Not sure what this thread is really about other than ranting...am I missing something?

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Of course you need to know theory to create music. You can play by “reading tab” but you are going to learn some pretty quickly.

How much do you need to know? I guess to play simple blues based rock and simple pop, not too terribly much. Especially as it exists in modern music, this simplified world has become a major part of the music we listen to.

If you are writing a song and know that G-C-D sounds good, you’ve absorbed a little piece of music theory. You may not be able to articulate it as such, but that’s what it is. Same for writing riffs, if you are doing anything other than fumbling over notes until you like the riff, you’ve picked up knowledge of scales and applied it to the melody of a riff.

That’s why I say you need to know some, no matter what you call it.

In the other thread there was a discussion of minor over major. A few things that weren’t specifically posted were that for the most part if you are playing minor pentatonic (theory!) over a “major” chord progression, most of the time it’s actually just open fifths, not true major chords. When you hear a guy blasting straight minor over major it usually sounds ham fisted. Most of the time the player is actually bending in and out of major/minor giving some color and interest to it.

 

[Nagisa]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

It's invaluable to improvisation.

You are getting "no, but..." answers because your question is framed in a way that leads to that answer.

No, it is not required, because simple songs don't require it.

If you had asked "Is music theory important for guitarists who want to create complex rock or metal music?" Then your answers would be very different. Do you think Dream Theater ignores music theory? But yes the kid down the street playing Black Sabbath covers who does not write new material does not need to learn music theory to do what he does.

 

[devastone]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Not sure you can separate "following your ears" from conscious or unconscious music theory, especially those guys that have highly developed theoretical knowledge and use it all the time. They don't have to "think" about what they are hearing to process it. Like I said in post 2, you don't have to think about grammar to have a conversation, you don't have to think about how to make a car go after you've been driving for 10 years, you know that a skunk smells bad, and those guys don't have to think about building a #13 arpeggio.

When you guys talk about developing "ears", you could have perfect pitch and throw random notes together and it would sound like crap, so even subconsciously you have developed some sense of what progressions work, and which ones don't, and with that you can decide when to stay "in the box" and when to make excursions outside of it for the musical statement you are trying to make. So, you have developed some amount of musical theory knowledge whether you know what to call what you are doing or not. But some knowledge does help shortcut that. It also opens you up to new possibilities and opportunities, you don't necessarily need to be able to sight read to do a session, but you better be able to figure out the IV chord of the key you are in on the fly.

And yes, after reading the other "music theory question" thread, this one was most likely started so the arguing could continue. The OP isn't going to change his mind.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Just to be clear ..this is not about knowing the notes on your fretboard, basic chords and scales ....

,Masta' C Yep my mind is definitely made up...The thread's about what it says it's about...

...as for darkside. ..my point exactly ..you don't need to get it from a book 'cuz you get it from your head anyway..it tells you what goes/does'nt go, fits/does'nt fit etc ie..you can do it just fine by using your ear..just without knowing the theoretical concepts behind it all or really caring about them.
Also in my experiernce it's easy enough to play almost ANYTHING with a good & well developed ear, basic scales & knowledge of your fretboard.. your not limited to blues and pop. But this thread is specifically about rock/metal guitar...

Negative ease: in my experience the most easy way to develop your ear is by listening to & playing along to stuff....again..not books & notation. I would agree that basic theory is sufficient & yes I've had the unfortunate experience of jamming with guys like that who often frankly speak about their playing (and how & why they play what they play) far more eloquently than they actually play...

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Not sure you can separate "following your ears" from conscious or unconscious music theory, especially those guys that have highly developed theoretical knowledge and use it all the time. They don't have to "think" about what they are hearing to process it. Like I said in post 2, you don't have to think about grammar to have a conversation, you don't have to think about how to make a car go after you've been driving for 10 years, you know that a skunk smells bad, and those guys don't have to think about building a #13 arpeggio.

When you guys talk about developing "ears", you could have perfect pitch and throw random notes together and it would sound like crap, so even subconsciously you have developed some sense of what progressions work, and which ones don't, and with that you can decide when to stay "in the box" and when to make excursions outside of it for the musical statement you are trying to make. So, you have developed some amount of musical theory knowledge whether you know what to call what you are doing or not. But some knowledge does help shortcut that. It also opens you up to new possibilities and opportunities, you don't necessarily need to be able to sight read to do a session, but you better be able to figure out the IV chord of the key you are in on the fly.

And yes, after reading the other "music theory question" thread, this one was most likely started so the arguing could continue. The OP isn't going to change his mind.

To be more clear on my point about developing ear, you can intuitively know what tones compliment each other and what steps feel naturing or create resolution or tension. No theory needed. Its natural and for 1000s of year thats presumably all human did and a you can bet their were amazing natural musicians. I dont recommend the no theory approach BTW. Just make certain these people arent just learning math when they are learning to play.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

It's invaluable to improvisation.

You are getting "no, but..." answers because your question is framed in a way that leads to that answer.

No, it is not required, because simple songs don't require it.

If you had asked "Is music theory important for guitarists who want to create complex rock or metal music?" Then your answers would be very different. Do you think Dream Theater ignores music theory? But yes the kid down the street playing Black Sabbath covers who does not write new material does not need to learn music theory to do what he does.

I improvise without it. I use my ears which to me are far more invaluable...

No but I think they're using stuff like muscle memory & their ears more when they're actually playing ...at least Petrucci is when he's improvising. Although Dream Theater is quite an extreme example of a rock/metal band for the simple reason that their approach is far more regimented than your average band in the genre....ie what I was talking about.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Not sure you can separate "following your ears" from conscious or unconscious music theory, especially those guys that have highly developed theoretical knowledge and use it all the time. They don't have to "think" about what they are hearing to process it. Like I said in post 2, you don't have to think about grammar to have a conversation, you don't have to think about how to make a car go after you've been driving for 10 years, you know that a skunk smells bad, and those guys don't have to think about building a #13 arpeggio.

When you guys talk about developing "ears", you could have perfect pitch and throw random notes together and it would sound like crap, so even subconsciously you have developed some sense of what progressions work, and which ones don't, and with that you can decide when to stay "in the box" and when to make excursions outside of it for the musical statement you are trying to make. So, you have developed some amount of musical theory knowledge whether you know what to call what you are doing or not. But some knowledge does help shortcut that. It also opens you up to new possibilities and opportunities, you don't necessarily need to be able to sight read to do a session, but you better be able to figure out the IV chord of the key you are in on the fly.

And yes, after reading the other "music theory question" thread, this one was most likely started so the arguing could continue. The OP isn't going to change his mind.

..so in a nutshell it all boils down to your well developed ears and knowing how to follow them quick?

This thread was started to expose bigotry, intolerance, snake oil bull**** & double standards among musicians (..it's done that already.)

 

[devastone]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

To be more clear on my point about developing ear, you can intuitively know what tones compliment each other and what steps feel naturing or create resolution or tension. No theory needed. Its natural and for 1000s of year thats presumably all human did and a you can bet their were amazing natural musicians. I dont recommend the no theory approach BTW. Just make certain these people arent just learning math when they are learning to play.

No argument there, the "theory" was developed to explain this. Birds flew and rocks fell before physics was understood, but it was still applicable.

 

[devastone]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

..so in a nutshell it all boils down to your well developed ears and knowing how to follow them quick?

This thread was started to expose bigotry, intolerance, snake oil bull**** & double standards among musicians (..it's done that already.)

Yes, I guess you could say that.

As far as the bigotry goes, yes, I guess it has, you seem to be the most closed minded person here. I won't argue that there are great players that don't understand theory on paper, but they apply it to their playing just like gravity is applied to a rock that is thrown up in the air.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

It doesn't hurt

When I decide to do something
I want to be the best I can at it

I read all the books and magazines
Ask all the questions

Be the best I can be at whatever

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

. Double post.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

Yes, I guess you could say that.

As far as the bigotry goes, yes, I guess it has, you seem to be the most closed minded person here. I won't argue that there are great players that don't understand theory on paper, but they apply it to their playing just like gravity is applied to a rock that is thrown up in the air.

..and that's cause I don't want to know advanced theory :lmao:

Great exposure indeed.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Is advanced music theory really required at all for rock/metal guitar?

It doesn't hurt

When I decide to do something
I want to be the best I can at it

I read all the books and magazines
Ask all the questions

Be the best I can be at whatever

Fair enough....

I do things differently though.