Is Rock Guitar Dead?

[shred me good]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

yes, it's dead, but i don't particularly care if it comes back either

dno where ur coming from but i have to agree!!

what is this ROCK!!!???if rock is the influence, ie. the babys of fathers.
then its basicly heavy blues, using the I IV and V.
so by clasing rock as a genre it basicly cant be built upon it.
a rock guitarest who uses his jazz influence is called a fusion (or somthing) guitarest, hence the genre changes when you build on it.

so to keep building on just blues becomes increasinly dificult to build on the genre. and i think the shreders got as far as you can get down that road.
so its time for somthing new.

also why dose no-one include people like preston reed and lawrence juber in the list of shreders. if u cant call them melodic ill eat my guitar!!

so yes rock is dead!!!

but not in a bad way.

if you can play hendrix as well as hendrix could, then you could say, "damn, this genre holds nothing for me any longer, rock is dead!"
but that means until you can play like a god, theres nothing wrong with rock being dead!!

 

[big_black]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

SEVERAL ISSUES TO CONSIDER:

1) Rock (as is the case with all music styles except maybe classical) has morphed into so many different sub-genres with significant followings that it is harder than ever before to have a single group that appeals to a huge number of people. When you said rock-n-roll 40 years ago, say no more, people knew exactly what you meant. Now you have to name 3 or 4 different bands to make clear what KIND of rock you mean.

(If that doesn't make it clear, think back to 60 or 70 years ago, the FDR years. Popular music was swing. Period. If it wasn't on the Hit Parade, nobody ever heard of it. Blues and country were localized styles that had only cult followings. Classical was reserved for the upper crust.)

2) Just plain ol' fashion (e.g., clothes) is extremely expensive for youth to keep up with. Back in the 60's and early 70's it was the reverse -- you were rebelling by wearing crappy clothes, letting your hair grow out and showering once in a while. Keeping up with "fashion" in those days actually saved you money so you had a little extra cash to buy that Kent or Silvertone beginner guitar.

Today you have to have just the right $300 sneakers in just the right color for the day of the week in question, plenty of bling-bling, the right Abercrombie & Fitch or whoever is the store or label of the day, etc.

There's no money left over to buy a beginner guitar -- which is especially sad because beginner guitars today are of higher quality than mid-level guitars back then.

3) Of kids that do show an interest in learning guitar, these days I run into a modern phenomenon brought to you by the short attention span entertainment and computer industry. They want to learn to play guitar without having to learn to play guitar. One guy in particular was just dumbfounded when I explained that modern technology had not yet come up with a shortcut to learning to play an instrument.

4) Are Britney & Co. popular because kids actually LIKE it -- or because it's the only thing they KNOW? My theory is that the vast majority of people at a club or a concert or even turning on the radio to hit stations are doing so because it is the place to be or the thing to do, not because they have a personal passion for the music. I think this has ALWAYS been the case. Not everybody at the Cotton Club was into the music, most were there for the drinks and the girls or the guys, because that's where everybody was. Most moved on to rock-n-roll and soul when the swing and bop days died down. Because that's where the girls, guys and drinks moved on to.

I believe that serious music fans of all styles have always been a pretty small minority. The proof is that the real music lovers still like what they like long after everyone else has moved on to The Next Big Thing and disavowed in Orwellian fashion ever liking the music they raved about before because (cue girly lip-snap, sigh), "it's so...last week..." For most people, even music is just a me-too fashion statement.

There are plenty of great guitar players but everyone is into so much different stuff and most people are (and always have been) fickle about what they like that the chances of any genre of music dominating popular music the way it used to 40 years ago are extremely slim.

+1 on all that!

 

[shred me good]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Well said, Zhangliqun.

+1

 

[MattPete]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Rock guitar isn't dead. Although I grew up on Clapton, EVH, and Schenker, lately I've been more inspired by the guitar playing of Son Volt.

http://www.sonvolt.net/

Check out songs #1 and #2 (Highway 61 and Jet Pilot) -- they're both available on the web site.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Rock + Jazz = Fusion but Rock + Blues does not equal shredders. The shredder metal was actually based off classical music, not the blues. Study the actual notation and it's got classical written all over it. Rock + Blues = Great White or AC/DC, not Yngwie or McAlpine or Satch or Vai. (just using them as examples).

 

[big_black]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Rock guitar doesn't have to be about virtuosity; what's more impressive is evolution. Kurt Cobain did something to evolve -- or at least transform -- rock guitar. Same with Jack White. Jonny Greenwood is doing that through his use of effects.

Exactly! I was going to post on this last night, but I was too tired to get into it. I look at music the same way I do all other art forms. In order to fully appreciate a piece, you have to know the artist, the time period and issues of the time, as well as the artistic climate of that time. IMO, Cobain belongs up there with all the other rock gods and guitar heros. He was indeed a talented artist. Some say he was a hack. I say he was an artist. Yes, he could have played better- he could have made more conventional solos, he could have played in tune. The fact he didn't is what makes him great. He was a minimalist. That was the point of his art. He stripped all the flash and BS showmanship that was going on at that time, put that guitar in your face and played with his heart- no appologies. His show of restraint and the fact that he had the balls to throw out the rules is why I put him up there. Every out of tune note, every time he put his guitar up to his amp to scream feedback in your face he was saying something. He is one of the reasons I picked up the guitar.

Clapton, Hendrix, Stevie Ray, they all made great music, but I can't say any of them have directly influenced my playing. I grew up listening to Thurston Moore and Lee Renaldo trip people out with the way they used their effects, bending their minds with feedback. I grew up listening to Steve Albini slice my eardrums with his "nails on a chalkboard" guitar tone and thought it was so revolutionary...and it was. One note and you know it's him. I grew up loving the fact that Joe Strummer and Mick Jones somehow managed to put a reggae vibe in almost everything they did (reggae and punk rock, who would have thought?). I wanted to play just like them. Sometimes it's not about the physical art, rather the idea behind the art that makes it powerful. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else.

I guess what I'm saying is that 1. music should be treated and appreciated like any other art, 2. guitar heroes, or "gods" are personal. Just because there is no one left that you are into doesn't mean there are no heroes left- that there are no more musicians pushing the boundries. There certainly are.

 

[aleclee]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Frankly, I never buy into the "he played out of tune/out of time" as a sign of artistry. IMO, the fact that it works is in spite of those traits, not because of them. Its not like hitting blue notes.

That said, there's nothing to say that a sloppy guitarist can't be a great player. Jimmy Page is proof of that.

 

[big_black]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Frankly, I never buy into the "he played out of tune/out of time" as a sign of artistry. IMO, the fact that it works is in spite of those traits, not because of them. Its not like hitting blue notes.

Not in the same sense as a blue note, but I beleive it was part of his art and deffinatley intentional.

 

[aleclee]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Not in the same sense as a blue note, but I beleive it was part of his art and deffinatley intentional.

You may be right but I think he just didn't care about that stuff.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Frankly, I never buy into the "he played out of tune/out of time" as a sign of artistry. IMO, the fact that it works is in spite of those traits, not because of them. Its not like hitting blue notes.

That said, there's nothing to say that a sloppy guitarist can't be a great player. Jimmy Page is proof of that.

+1 DING DING!!! on your second paragraph there. Holy crap was he ever sloppy.

And I have to agree with the out of tune/time comment. That's not a sign of artistry, that's a sign of you can't tune your freakin' guitar or keep a beat. Sorry, but a sour note is a sour note.

Granted, Cobain affected a whole generation but he came on the scene while the shredders and hair metal bands were still on the radio and MTV, even if they may have been at the end of their run. My first thought was, "who signed these people...that dude can't play". I was totally not in to the grunge scene because I was so heavily influenced by 80's metal and the guitar heroes from then and prior. I just couldn't accept Cobain as a good player....and I still don't but I do accept the fact that he was a good songwriter and did start something different that sold a ton of records.

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Well said, Zhangliqun.

+1

 

[nuntius]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

As for Satriani, Vai, McAlpine, Ingvie, etc., I bow to their technical greatness but as composers or songwriters, I'm sorry...they just flat out suck. Don't show me your Johnson, give me a SONG for God's sake!!!!

For The Love of God - Vai.. Sisters by Vai. Probably more but I only own Passion and Warfare. No, I don't like all the tracks on the album but some of them are amazing.

Until We Say Goodbye by Satch is awesome.. very nice feel and arranged very nicely. Actually there's tonnes of Satch tunes I could quote. Not all Satch stuff is flat out shredding.

A train of angels by Satch. Such a sing along melody I can't see how it's not a song.

Tears in the Rain is one of my fave Satch tracks, it's a very short finger picked acoustic piece


If you're talking about singing, both Vai and especially Satch should be banned. :laugh2: But they can compose, and arrange to a far higher degree than almost anyone on this board.



I don't like every single song they've done, some of the stuff is shreddy yes, I don't listen to it all the time anymore no, but they can definitely write a strong melody



Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the idea that sometimes people just quote Satch and Vai etc because they're names they know, but have only heard odd tracks and don't actually own any of their albums. It's as big a cliché as saying "emo sucks" IMO.


Don't own any Yngwie or McAlpine so I wont comment.

[/rant] :smoker:

I agree with your post RE: SEVERAL ISSUES TO CONSIDER:



Btw, Matt Bellamy is my vote for a new "rock god guitarist" very original (I agree with the evolving point before anyone thinks I'm stuck in the 80s), a tonne of charisma and even plays piano too...

 

[nuntius]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

2. guitar heroes, or "gods" are personal. Just because there is no one left that you are into doesn't mean there are no heroes left- that there are no more musicians pushing the boundries. There certainly are.

+1

That's why I put "rock god guitarist" in my previous post

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Exactly! IMO, Cobain belongs up there with all the other rock gods and guitar heros. He was indeed a talented artist. Some say he was a hack. I say he was an artist. Yes, he could have played better- he could have made more conventional solos, he could have played in tune. The fact he didn't is what makes him great. He was a minimalist. That was the point of his art. He stripped all the flash and BS showmanship that was going on at that time, put that guitar in your face and played with his heart- no appologies. His show of restraint and the fact that he had the balls to throw out the rules is why I put him up there. Every out of tune note, every time he put his guitar up to his amp to scream feedback in your face he was saying something. He is one of the reasons I picked up the guitar.

Cobain played with passion but he didn't do anything new. Neil Young has the copyright on being the non-technically gifted guy that "played with heart". Jimmy Page also did the out-of-tune thing, as did endless blues players before him. Nothing you say above was revolutionary -- other guys did all that and more before.

I think his only contribution was to help push along the idea that "solos aren't cool", which was an over-reaction to the over-playing of hair metal heroes -- which was every bit as silly as what they were rebelling against. It was like rebelling against people driving in SUV's by trying to stuff yourself into a Hot Wheels or Match Box car.

 

[tfb1990]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

theres a guy from silvertide, really reminds me of angus young

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

I don't like every single song they've done, some of the stuff is shreddy yes, I don't listen to it all the time anymore no, but they can definitely write a strong melody

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the idea that sometimes people just quote Satch and Vai etc because they're names they know, but have only heard odd tracks and don't actually own any of their albums. It's as big a cliché as saying "emo sucks" IMO.
[/rant]

Maybe there's some wonderful other stuff they've done I haven't heard but I've really, REALLY tried HARD to like these guys and they just leave me cold. I really think they confuse riffs and runs and 'anything-that's-too-hard-for-anyone-else-to-play' with real melodies and real solos.

I'm not a musical Luddite by any means -- I can play pretty fast and abstract myself, and I also love oodles of effects as long as they are used with some taste, so this is not a case of sour grapes. I dig quite a bit of Allan Holdsworth too because I think he is a great deal more melodic than Vai or Satch. But even he often falls short (I admit I'm a tough crowd all by myself.)

Hey, maybe Vai & Satch have a musical vision that is just too hip for me to get, but to me they just come off as trying to show off more than just get down and seriously try to play/say something.

 

[B2D]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Rock aint' dead... it just smells funny.

 

[big_black]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

I think his only contribution was to help push along the idea that "solos aren't cool"

You missed his point, that's fine. There is alot of art I don't understand or appreciate either.

 

[aleclee]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

Rock aint' dead... it just smells funny.

Is there an echo in the room...room...room?

Rock guitar isn't dead. It just smells funny.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Is Rock Guitar Dead?

What was his point then? Seriously.