Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: Les Pauls
Not to be confused with reliable information and perception that is yours.
Not to be confused with reliable information and perception that is yours.
Les Pauls
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blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Les Pauls
It's almost all opinion when it comes to tone. No one is without their own personal biases, including you.
It's almost all opinion when it comes to tone. No one is without their own personal biases, including you.
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: Les Pauls
Yes - but I don't generally portray my opinion as that of others as a defacto truth.
I usually (and I'm not saying always) clarify My opinions, usually specify the guitar that things are in, and tend to ask the golden triangle of gear questions: Guitar/Amp/Style.
I have a Ph.D. I can caveat like nobody's business.
Yes - but I don't generally portray my opinion as that of others as a defacto truth.
I usually (and I'm not saying always) clarify My opinions, usually specify the guitar that things are in, and tend to ask the golden triangle of gear questions: Guitar/Amp/Style.
I have a Ph.D. I can caveat like nobody's business.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Les Pauls
I really don't portray my opinions as 'de facto truth.' What I regularly do (to the consternation of a few individuals) is quote what I see other members repeatedly posting. Their opinions seem just as valid as anyone else's. What I really hate to happen is for someone to get glowing recommendations for a PU (and god knows, just about everything gets a glowing recommendation here from somebody), and for them to wind up with the same issues that some other members have had with that PU. They shouldn't be blind-sided, especially if they're paying someone to do the install. That could turn them off Duncan's for life. There's always some members that love any given PU, and always some who are underwhelmed by it. So. We're not all going to like the same things. Even when we do, there's different approaches to get there. The ones who disagree with you aren't tone deaf idiots. We certainly aren't all playing the same kind of music. We just need to dial down the anger level sometimes. Good lord, these are just PU's. You'd think someone's mother had been insulted or sister had been defiled.
I really don't portray my opinions as 'de facto truth.' What I regularly do (to the consternation of a few individuals) is quote what I see other members repeatedly posting. Their opinions seem just as valid as anyone else's. What I really hate to happen is for someone to get glowing recommendations for a PU (and god knows, just about everything gets a glowing recommendation here from somebody), and for them to wind up with the same issues that some other members have had with that PU. They shouldn't be blind-sided, especially if they're paying someone to do the install. That could turn them off Duncan's for life. There's always some members that love any given PU, and always some who are underwhelmed by it. So. We're not all going to like the same things. Even when we do, there's different approaches to get there. The ones who disagree with you aren't tone deaf idiots. We certainly aren't all playing the same kind of music. We just need to dial down the anger level sometimes. Good lord, these are just PU's. You'd think someone's mother had been insulted or sister had been defiled.
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audiocheck
New member
Re: Les Pauls
I would like to throw my two cents in on the 59n. I own 6 LPs of various years and models, none of which are 50s models.
So although I will agree that the 59n does sound boomy, it is much more characteristic of a LP tone, then other Duncan A5 pickups I have tried.
The Jazz is great in the neck, almost no boom, but it does not give you that characteristic LP tone. Same goes with the Screamin' Demon and Full Shred neck. The only 2 Duncan neck pickups, I have found (my opinion only), that just ooze LP tone are the 59n and the PGn. I have not tried any of the AP2 versions, but I would assume they also get you that characteristic LP tone. Please correct me if I am wrong about the AP2 in a LP.
So it is very important to realize, what the tone is that someone is after, as well as the wood involved in getting that tone accomplished. So my vision of the perfect LP neck tone are from players like Dickey Betts, Duane Allman, and Warren Haynes. When I flip to the Neck, that is the ballpark I want to be in. Others may not agree.
I would like to throw my two cents in on the 59n. I own 6 LPs of various years and models, none of which are 50s models.
So although I will agree that the 59n does sound boomy, it is much more characteristic of a LP tone, then other Duncan A5 pickups I have tried.
The Jazz is great in the neck, almost no boom, but it does not give you that characteristic LP tone. Same goes with the Screamin' Demon and Full Shred neck. The only 2 Duncan neck pickups, I have found (my opinion only), that just ooze LP tone are the 59n and the PGn. I have not tried any of the AP2 versions, but I would assume they also get you that characteristic LP tone. Please correct me if I am wrong about the AP2 in a LP.
So it is very important to realize, what the tone is that someone is after, as well as the wood involved in getting that tone accomplished. So my vision of the perfect LP neck tone are from players like Dickey Betts, Duane Allman, and Warren Haynes. When I flip to the Neck, that is the ballpark I want to be in. Others may not agree.
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: Les Pauls
I do not know if LP tone could or should be too generalized/characterized outside of stating stock Gibson pickups running on 300k pots.
By your definition, I would not say the A2P is the "LP tone". By my standards (and maybe Slash's) I would say the A2P is "LP tone". The A2P is the Jazz humbucker with an A2 instead of an A5. Yes, the mag does make a difference but they are still closely related pickups.
Like you said though, it is important to chase the tone one is after. At the end of the day that's all that matters.
I do not know if LP tone could or should be too generalized/characterized outside of stating stock Gibson pickups running on 300k pots.
By your definition, I would not say the A2P is the "LP tone". By my standards (and maybe Slash's) I would say the A2P is "LP tone". The A2P is the Jazz humbucker with an A2 instead of an A5. Yes, the mag does make a difference but they are still closely related pickups.
Like you said though, it is important to chase the tone one is after. At the end of the day that's all that matters.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: Les Pauls
What pickups people like best, or choose as what they consider to be a definitive les paul sound is personal preference.
The point of this thread is to ask contributors when giving advice on how pickups sound in particular guitars that they state what kind of guitar they are talking about.
Eg:
If you like the sound of certain pickups in your 1970s Les Paul Custom, then say that.
If you hate the sound of 59s with 500k pots in your Agile les paul then say that.
If you find that your epiphone les paul special did not agree with a certain set of pickups, then say that too.
If you have a greco les paul copy that you think sounds better than any 1959 gibson, but that you liked/did not like a certain set of pickups in it....then say that!
The whole point of this thread is that contributors actually write down what kind of guitar they are referring to when they say "such and such pickups sound like such and such in Les Pauls" (or stratocasters or whatever). Not all les pauls sound the same. How a pickup set interacts with a bolt neck "DIA" brand particle board Les paul copy (my first guitar) and a 1957 custom shop les paul goldtop is going to be different.
Just say what guitar you are talking about when making recommendations, folks. Try not to put all Les pauls (or any style of guitar) into one basket.
Its not a lot to ask for. You'd think this was the spanish inquisition or something.
What pickups people like best, or choose as what they consider to be a definitive les paul sound is personal preference.
The point of this thread is to ask contributors when giving advice on how pickups sound in particular guitars that they state what kind of guitar they are talking about.
Eg:
If you like the sound of certain pickups in your 1970s Les Paul Custom, then say that.
If you hate the sound of 59s with 500k pots in your Agile les paul then say that.
If you find that your epiphone les paul special did not agree with a certain set of pickups, then say that too.
If you have a greco les paul copy that you think sounds better than any 1959 gibson, but that you liked/did not like a certain set of pickups in it....then say that!
The whole point of this thread is that contributors actually write down what kind of guitar they are referring to when they say "such and such pickups sound like such and such in Les Pauls" (or stratocasters or whatever). Not all les pauls sound the same. How a pickup set interacts with a bolt neck "DIA" brand particle board Les paul copy (my first guitar) and a 1957 custom shop les paul goldtop is going to be different.
Just say what guitar you are talking about when making recommendations, folks. Try not to put all Les pauls (or any style of guitar) into one basket.
Its not a lot to ask for. You'd think this was the spanish inquisition or something.
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DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Les Pauls
That's what I got from the initial post - don't call your Tokai Love Rock a "Les Paul", because it is not. It bears a legally-troubling likeness to a USA-made Gibson-branded Les Paul (e.g. single-cutaway thick mahogany body with mahogany set-in neck), but it is not a Les Paul.
Similarly, don't call your Epiphone Les Paul a "Les Paul". It's an Epihone Les Paul, where Epiphone is part of the model name. If you're so ashamed to admit that you own one, and deservedly so, then please have more respect for those who have shelled out the dough for a real USA-made Gibson Les Paul by not calling your "guitar" a "Les Paul". Once upon a time, Epiphone meant something good; Back when Les Paul made "The Log" out of one, and before the brand name was shipped to the 3rd world. Those days are over, so please stop insulting the rest of us who have owned/do own real Les Pauls.
And please, if you have an SG, call it an SG, regardless of whether the headstock logo says "Gibson Les Paul SG model" - it's an SG. No, it's not an Angus Young signature SG, or a 70s small-block SG, but it's an SG nonetheless. Lester himself said he had absolutely no input on the design of it, and that Gibson put it on there just to help sales of that model. While he and Mary Ford did perform with the SG, the "Gibson Les Paul model" is the single-cutaway version we're all used to seeing Slash, Jimmy Page, Ace, and Dickey use.
That's what I got from the initial post - don't call your Tokai Love Rock a "Les Paul", because it is not. It bears a legally-troubling likeness to a USA-made Gibson-branded Les Paul (e.g. single-cutaway thick mahogany body with mahogany set-in neck), but it is not a Les Paul.
Similarly, don't call your Epiphone Les Paul a "Les Paul". It's an Epihone Les Paul, where Epiphone is part of the model name. If you're so ashamed to admit that you own one, and deservedly so, then please have more respect for those who have shelled out the dough for a real USA-made Gibson Les Paul by not calling your "guitar" a "Les Paul". Once upon a time, Epiphone meant something good; Back when Les Paul made "The Log" out of one, and before the brand name was shipped to the 3rd world. Those days are over, so please stop insulting the rest of us who have owned/do own real Les Pauls.
And please, if you have an SG, call it an SG, regardless of whether the headstock logo says "Gibson Les Paul SG model" - it's an SG. No, it's not an Angus Young signature SG, or a 70s small-block SG, but it's an SG nonetheless. Lester himself said he had absolutely no input on the design of it, and that Gibson put it on there just to help sales of that model. While he and Mary Ford did perform with the SG, the "Gibson Les Paul model" is the single-cutaway version we're all used to seeing Slash, Jimmy Page, Ace, and Dickey use.
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: Les Pauls
I kind of got a hint of this vibe from the initial post as well.
Gibson kind of gets both sides of a sharp sword these days... on one end you have the sniffery and on the other end you have the haters.
The sniffery and lawsuits make guys like me ashamed I ever owned a Gibson. Beautiful guitars. I really do love them but I can live without drowning in the rain just because of some name on a headstock.
The haters make me want to own a Gibson. It's so "not hipster" to play on anything that isn't a log with a few branches I whittled using my sharpened stone I found by the pond when I found myself listening to folk music that ironically is more popular than I would like anyone to know.
I kind of got a hint of this vibe from the initial post as well.
Gibson kind of gets both sides of a sharp sword these days... on one end you have the sniffery and on the other end you have the haters.
The sniffery and lawsuits make guys like me ashamed I ever owned a Gibson. Beautiful guitars. I really do love them but I can live without drowning in the rain just because of some name on a headstock.
The haters make me want to own a Gibson. It's so "not hipster" to play on anything that isn't a log with a few branches I whittled using my sharpened stone I found by the pond when I found myself listening to folk music that ironically is more popular than I would like anyone to know.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: Les Pauls
It doesnt even matter if you hate gibson, and love tokai love rocks. I just want people to say what guitar they are using as a frame of reference to help readers who are looking for pickup recommendations. I really can't understand why some people are trying to create an argument about this. Talk about missing the point.
It doesnt even matter if you hate gibson, and love tokai love rocks. I just want people to say what guitar they are using as a frame of reference to help readers who are looking for pickup recommendations. I really can't understand why some people are trying to create an argument about this. Talk about missing the point.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Les Pauls
To be fair, is that what you've done with some of your comments about '57 Classics? How do '57 fans feel about that? Those were much harsher than simply saying some people have found '59N's to be bassy in LP's. Is this a 'Do as I say, not as I do' thing? I understand what you're trying to accomplish with this thread, and the majority of your posts are pretty good, but if you haven't lived up to those standards yourself, how can you ask the rest of us to? Is that fair? You're well aware that there's more to tone than guitars and PU's; amps and speakers are a big part of the final sound. Effects, PU height, pot values, and string gauge also play a part. Standard tuning or down-tuned 2 or 3 steps? Do we give the whole laundry list? If you want an accurate picture of why someone's guitar sounds like it does, you can't really stop with just the guitar and PU, because that's only the first part of the sound. What are the amp EQ settings, that can skew things Does the guy have any of the tone knobs turned way up or way down? Is he making things worse? What should the tone settings be if you want a PU to be comparable between players? Talk about the Spanish Inquisition. I don't feel like wading thru that with everyone who posts on a thread.
If the moderators want to require that we all do this, fine. But regular members aren't going to make up rules for me to follow. We'll see what kind of compliance you get. Maybe I'll be the one holdout, huh?
To be fair, is that what you've done with some of your comments about '57 Classics? How do '57 fans feel about that? Those were much harsher than simply saying some people have found '59N's to be bassy in LP's. Is this a 'Do as I say, not as I do' thing? I understand what you're trying to accomplish with this thread, and the majority of your posts are pretty good, but if you haven't lived up to those standards yourself, how can you ask the rest of us to? Is that fair? You're well aware that there's more to tone than guitars and PU's; amps and speakers are a big part of the final sound. Effects, PU height, pot values, and string gauge also play a part. Standard tuning or down-tuned 2 or 3 steps? Do we give the whole laundry list? If you want an accurate picture of why someone's guitar sounds like it does, you can't really stop with just the guitar and PU, because that's only the first part of the sound. What are the amp EQ settings, that can skew things Does the guy have any of the tone knobs turned way up or way down? Is he making things worse? What should the tone settings be if you want a PU to be comparable between players? Talk about the Spanish Inquisition. I don't feel like wading thru that with everyone who posts on a thread.
If the moderators want to require that we all do this, fine. But regular members aren't going to make up rules for me to follow. We'll see what kind of compliance you get. Maybe I'll be the one holdout, huh?
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: Les Pauls
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
allbutromeo
New member
Re: Les Pauls
Sorry, couldn't help that one.
edit: I didn't finish the thread before posting, but apparently I wasn't the only one who thought this
Sorry, couldn't help that one.
edit: I didn't finish the thread before posting, but apparently I wasn't the only one who thought this
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Les Pauls
Yes, you are missing the point. You haven't consistently listed the guitars you used in discussing PU's. You've bad mouthed PU's without doing that, you've promoted PU's without doing that. Where's the credibility? Or did I miss that you were promoted to senior moderator? If you want a forum to fit all your personal do's and don'ts, start your own. The argument comes with you trying to change how this forum operates without consent of Duncan. The moderators don't even do it themselves on a regular basis.
Yes, you are missing the point. You haven't consistently listed the guitars you used in discussing PU's. You've bad mouthed PU's without doing that, you've promoted PU's without doing that. Where's the credibility? Or did I miss that you were promoted to senior moderator? If you want a forum to fit all your personal do's and don'ts, start your own. The argument comes with you trying to change how this forum operates without consent of Duncan. The moderators don't even do it themselves on a regular basis.
Re: Les Pauls
Honestly, I'm nobody and don't have the best english to explain my point, but I think it's pretty sad to see some really great guys, with great knowledge and always willing to help people trade insults and accusations here. This is against all the principles of this forum. We are not here to defend pickups, offend pickups or fight.
The point is to help players to achieve the tones they wanted in their guitars, with advices, along with some healthy discussion about preferences. We are all tonefreaks and that's why so many people come here.
Personally, I'm not a fan of generalizations. Also, I think that the world has more players happy with 59's and 57's than people who think they're boomy or weak. So, let's focus on the people who wants more of their pickups, instead starting pointless fights.
Just an opinion of a simple forum member that really likes the advices of the people involved in this. =)
Honestly, I'm nobody and don't have the best english to explain my point, but I think it's pretty sad to see some really great guys, with great knowledge and always willing to help people trade insults and accusations here. This is against all the principles of this forum. We are not here to defend pickups, offend pickups or fight.
The point is to help players to achieve the tones they wanted in their guitars, with advices, along with some healthy discussion about preferences. We are all tonefreaks and that's why so many people come here.
Personally, I'm not a fan of generalizations. Also, I think that the world has more players happy with 59's and 57's than people who think they're boomy or weak. So, let's focus on the people who wants more of their pickups, instead starting pointless fights.
Just an opinion of a simple forum member that really likes the advices of the people involved in this. =)
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Les Pauls
So is a Strat made in Mexico with the Fender name on the headstock a 'real' Fender, even though it's not made in the US? Shouldn't they really be sold as Squires? Because Gibson chose to sell the guitars they make in another country (in their own factory) under a different brand name, those aren't 'real' LP's? Had they chose to sell their Asian-made guitars as 'Gibsons', they'd be real Gibsons? Or not? Is it geography? Is it racism? Anything made outside the US isn't 'real'? Or are they still 'real' if they're made in another country as long as it's not too far away? Are all Asian workers in guitar factories unskilled and uncaring, and all American guitars skilled and highly motivated? How come so many members have complained about the quality of some of the American-made guitars they've owned? What about the quality of Japanese instruments that are as good or better than some American-made ones of the same models? Lord knows Gibson themselves hasn't made their guitars consistently over the last 60 years in both materials or workmanship throughout the various changes in ownership. There's a lot variety and inconsistency in what they put out. Who gets to make arbitrary distinctions about how the rest of us refer to our instruments?
So is a Strat made in Mexico with the Fender name on the headstock a 'real' Fender, even though it's not made in the US? Shouldn't they really be sold as Squires? Because Gibson chose to sell the guitars they make in another country (in their own factory) under a different brand name, those aren't 'real' LP's? Had they chose to sell their Asian-made guitars as 'Gibsons', they'd be real Gibsons? Or not? Is it geography? Is it racism? Anything made outside the US isn't 'real'? Or are they still 'real' if they're made in another country as long as it's not too far away? Are all Asian workers in guitar factories unskilled and uncaring, and all American guitars skilled and highly motivated? How come so many members have complained about the quality of some of the American-made guitars they've owned? What about the quality of Japanese instruments that are as good or better than some American-made ones of the same models? Lord knows Gibson themselves hasn't made their guitars consistently over the last 60 years in both materials or workmanship throughout the various changes in ownership. There's a lot variety and inconsistency in what they put out. Who gets to make arbitrary distinctions about how the rest of us refer to our instruments?
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Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Les Pauls
:bigthumb:
:bigthumb:
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Les Pauls
Do the Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Taiwanese, India, and Mexican factories have skilled luthiers making the primary components of the guitars? Are they bringing in people off the street who have no concept of a musical instrument to simply press buttons on machines that do the same work a skilled luthier does with hand-held tools? How much of the work in these factories is done by skilled labor? Grover Jackson opened the factory in Japan that built the Charvel Model models, and trained the core team of builders to do it his way. Those luthiers trained others, and eventually moved on to form one of the top-ranked Japanese guitar companies: Caparison. Is that even a possibility at Fender's Mexican plant? Or The People's Electric Guitar Factory #21 in China? Or the Cort factories in India and Indonesia and Taiwan?
I've heard of Gibson's purported inconsistencies for years, but honestly have not found a store with such a wide variety of Gibsons of the exact same make/model to experience this for myself. I've been in stores that had one of each - reissue this or that, tribute this or that, VOS this or that, etc, but not one with multiples of the same version, so I would expect there to be some differences between an R9 and a VOS '58 or a Gary Moore and Jimmy Page models. I have, however, been in stores that had several identical Epiphone Les Pauls and the Gibson Les Paul they were purported to be "the Epiphone version of". I found the overall quality difference to be heavily-stacked in favor of the Gibson.
As well, I know mahogany has natural inconsistencies, so two necks of considerably different radii and profile could have the exact same weight when placed on a scale, which means two guitars made sequentially could feel and sound completely different from each other, though they are both Standards or Customs or Elites or Catalinas. These differences would easily be mistaken for inconsistency by the general public.
Never accuse me of being a racist again. Ever.
I currently own 6 USA-made guitars, 23 that were made in Japan, and one made in Indonesia. I hardly think that's the hallmark of a racist. A well-made guitar is a well-made guitar, and a poor imitation is a poor imitation.
Do the Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Taiwanese, India, and Mexican factories have skilled luthiers making the primary components of the guitars? Are they bringing in people off the street who have no concept of a musical instrument to simply press buttons on machines that do the same work a skilled luthier does with hand-held tools? How much of the work in these factories is done by skilled labor? Grover Jackson opened the factory in Japan that built the Charvel Model models, and trained the core team of builders to do it his way. Those luthiers trained others, and eventually moved on to form one of the top-ranked Japanese guitar companies: Caparison. Is that even a possibility at Fender's Mexican plant? Or The People's Electric Guitar Factory #21 in China? Or the Cort factories in India and Indonesia and Taiwan?
I've heard of Gibson's purported inconsistencies for years, but honestly have not found a store with such a wide variety of Gibsons of the exact same make/model to experience this for myself. I've been in stores that had one of each - reissue this or that, tribute this or that, VOS this or that, etc, but not one with multiples of the same version, so I would expect there to be some differences between an R9 and a VOS '58 or a Gary Moore and Jimmy Page models. I have, however, been in stores that had several identical Epiphone Les Pauls and the Gibson Les Paul they were purported to be "the Epiphone version of". I found the overall quality difference to be heavily-stacked in favor of the Gibson.
As well, I know mahogany has natural inconsistencies, so two necks of considerably different radii and profile could have the exact same weight when placed on a scale, which means two guitars made sequentially could feel and sound completely different from each other, though they are both Standards or Customs or Elites or Catalinas. These differences would easily be mistaken for inconsistency by the general public.
Never accuse me of being a racist again. Ever.
I currently own 6 USA-made guitars, 23 that were made in Japan, and one made in Indonesia. I hardly think that's the hallmark of a racist. A well-made guitar is a well-made guitar, and a poor imitation is a poor imitation.
DreX
New member
Re: Les Pauls
How do you know that Fender USA or Gibson are any different?
If you knew, this would be a statement and not a question.
It all comes down to how "well made" you personally wish a guitar to be. Nearly all guitars these days are "well made", there are only a handful that have genuine manufacturing deficits, and even then, it's often an issue you can fix yourself, relating to the setup or fret leveling. You really have to have your nose up in the air in order to say that only an American made guitar is made "well enough".
Maybe not racist, but certainly nationalistic. I'd have to call into question either your standards or your buying practices if you own 23 Japanese made guitars and somehow still hold the beliefs that you do.
How do you know that Fender USA or Gibson are any different?
If you knew, this would be a statement and not a question.
It all comes down to how "well made" you personally wish a guitar to be. Nearly all guitars these days are "well made", there are only a handful that have genuine manufacturing deficits, and even then, it's often an issue you can fix yourself, relating to the setup or fret leveling. You really have to have your nose up in the air in order to say that only an American made guitar is made "well enough".
Maybe not racist, but certainly nationalistic. I'd have to call into question either your standards or your buying practices if you own 23 Japanese made guitars and somehow still hold the beliefs that you do.
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