Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

[Low_fidelity2100]

Ok, so I posted a different thread a few days ago about this Mesa Heartbreaker I just got. Initially it was blowing fuses when the power was turned off, and it wasn't turned to standby first. Seemed to have gotten that issue resolved, here's the thread on that...

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?312033-Amp-blowing-fuses-when-turned-off-only-when-not-set-to-standby-first

...and now there's a new issue. While playing today at a relatively high volume, but not insanely high (about 10-10:30 o'clock on the Level control), it started doing this REALLY loud crackle, if I hit lower notes (like an G flat power chord). It's a really staticy sort of crackle, almost sounded like a blown speaker. Checked it plugged into another Cab, and the problem went away... But then using the internal speakers again, it was back. So tried the internal speakers with a different amp, set equally loud...No crackle at all. Tried the heartbreaker through the internal speakers again, crackle back... So I did some reading online, saw it could be power tubes, or the PI...So Turned the amp around, turned the lights off, and tapped on the power tubes with a drum stick...Crackling happened when tapped, and caused a Blue flash (the tubes glow kinda blue all the time, as do all my other 6L6's)...So I swapped out all four power tubes with Known good tubes pulled from other amps just to check...Turned it back on, let it warm up, switched out of standby...tapped the tubes again...does the same thing with different power tubes...So I tried a new PI tube...still does it, still with the flash, etc...does it at all volumes when tapped (or top of the amp is banged, any sort of bump, etc...)...The loudness of the crackle is dependent on the setting of the level control (set low its quiet, etc..)...So yeah.

What could this be? I don't know enough about amps to feel comfortable poking around inside, or trying to fix this myself. I've worked on Old PTP fender's before, but this Mesa is about as different from that as you can get while still being a tube amp...so I'm definitely not comfortable working on it myself...I'd just like to know what the cause could be, and whether its even worth dealing with?

I got this amp less than a week ago, and I do have a 30 day return/repair window...and at this point I'm trying to decide whether it's even worth dealing with the hassle? Or if I should just give it back, and either get back the thing I traded them, or get the cash value they had on the amp?

I do really like the way the amp sounds...But honestly, I could probably take the money and just buy a different one that doesn't have issues as soon as I get it.

 

[VinceT]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

Frankly, I would trade it back rather than trouble shoot. It sounds like one of the tubes is loose in its seating, with intermittent connection happening due to vibration at high volume. You could chase it, but you have a warranty, so use it!


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[Natman]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

Take it back since you have that option! I love my Heartbreaker but once these amps start having trouble, you can bet it will take some dough to figure the problem out! My Blue Angel had problems recently and I had to sink quite a bit to get her back up & running with new tubes, filter caps and bench time (not in that order).

 

[Mincer]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

This sounds like a tube issue. But it could be caused by something else. I'd take it back. Either get it repaired (with a repair guarantee) or get something else. That is an option you might wish you have 31 days from now.

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

So I ended up taking it back into the shop to have it repaired at their cost. I think I sorta over reacted initially, which I tend to do at times. Haha. My fender concert was making the same exact noise at one point, in the same exact way (brought in by high volume, bumps and vibration, even had the blue flashing, regardless of tubes installed), turned out to just be a screen grid resistor, plate load resistor, and a few dry solder joints. The concert has been basically fine since then.
So hopefully that's all it is with the heartbreaker. I mean it's a 20 year old amp, so it's not crazy that it'd need some maintenance, haha. I think I over reacted cause I've only had it since like Thursday, and this happened right after I got the fuse issue figured out. I have anxiety, and will at times let that nutty nonsense get the better of me, and cause me to over react and worry without really thinking things through. Haha.

I'll post whatever the outcome is here anyways though.

As far as just giving it back/getting money. I actually did consider that doing that, and just looking for another heartbreaker. Because I really do love the sound of the amp. But came to the conclusion, they're all gonna be around 20 years old or so, and basically any 20 year old amp is gonna need some maintenance. So I'd be as likely to find one that was in way worse shape, as I would be to find one that was totally fine. Ya know?
With this one, it's at least doing something I have had happen before and am pretty sure isn't a HUGE problem to fix.
Plus, The shop I got it at I've also been going to for years, and they've always been great any time there's been an issue with anything.
Finally and probably most importantly, the tech they use is the best in the area (I've used the same guy in the past and he's always done a great job). So if nothing else, I know the guy will figure it out, he always has for me before.

Not to mention that it's being fixed on their dime.


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[Mincer]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

I would have done the same thing. Heartbreakers are not common, and heavy as hell, so difficult to ship. The chances of you finding one locally are slim. Let us know how it turns out. And hey, whats the deal with the Heartbreaker, anyway? Is it supposed to be their take on a Marshall or something?

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

I would have done the same thing. Heartbreakers are not common, and heavy as hell, so difficult to ship. The chances of you finding one locally are slim. Let us know how it turns out. And hey, whats the deal with the Heartbreaker, anyway? Is it supposed to be their take on a Marshall or something?

The heartbreaker was their 25th anniversary model. Basically supposed to blackface style clean-crunch in Lo gain mode on channel one, mark I style gain In high gain mode on channel one.
Channel two is supposed to be JTM/plexi style clean-crunch on low gain of channel two, and JCM800 style dirt in high gain of channel two (though at max dirt it's got way more gain than my 2204, so it's more like 800-modded Marshall).

 

[Mincer]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

That is actually a great combination. I can see why you wouldn't want to give up on the amp.

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

So just heard from the shop. They said the repair man suspects the filter caps are causing the crackling, and so they're going to replace all of them (apparently there's like 15 or them, that's what they said at least).
Which sorta doesn't make sense to me based on everything I've been reading. From what I've read a loud crackling/popping sort of noise that's affected by vibration/high volume (which causes vibration), is normally dry solder joints, dirty/loose connections, failing/over heated resistors, etc. But not failing caps (which from everything I've been reading have a totally different set of symptoms).

That said, clearly I don't really know a ton about working on amps, other than basic stuff.

Does it make any sense that the tech would say it was the caps and replace them? Or is he just guessing/half assing this? (I'm gonna be pretty pissed if I get this back and it's doing the same thing, but now has shiny new filter caps haha)

EDIT: almost forgot. I specifically asked them to have the tech call me when he started checking out the amp, so I could tell him exactly what it was doing, what seemed to bring it on, etc.... And I didn't get a call from him at all, the person that called me, is just a dude that works in the shop.



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[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

On a 20 year amp its a good idea to replace all the electrolytic caps regardless. And there is a good possibility they have the correct diagnosis. This kind of crackling is common on old Fender amps when the electrolytic cathode caps go bad. But please let us know if they are right. I would really like to know what they find out.

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

On a 20 year amp its a good idea to replace all the electrolytic caps regardless. And there is a good possibility they have the correct diagnosis. This kind of crackling is common on old Fender amps when the electrolytic cathode caps go bad. But please let us know if they are right. I would really like to know what they find out.

Hmm. Weird, I'd never heard of caps causing that sort of sound before.

I mean hopefully you're right, and the tech is right. With any luck this will fix the issue. It just seemed a bit odd to me, just based on problems I've had on other amps (and what the solutions ended up being), and what I've been reading.

I had an 80's concert making the same exact noise, same way, an it turned out to be a screen grid resistor, and plate load resistor, and a few cold solder joints.
I did have a somewhat similar issue on a bassman at one point, that turned out to be caps. But in that case the crackling would start after being used at high volume/being vibrated for awhile, and once it started it wouldn't go away until the amp was turned off for A few minutes. (And it also sounded like more of a crackle/radio static combo)
Where as the HB just like the concert, it would happen only at high volumes/under vibration or being bumped (hardish), and would go away after that until the vibration made it do it again. Both the heartbreaker and the concert, if ya smacked the top of the amp, regardless of volume, it would crackle/pop at the same time as the impact, if ya bumped the amp it'd do it once it'd been on for awhile (i.e. Hotter), and if you tap the output tubes it'll do it. But in all cases it only lasted as long as there was vibration/bumping/impact etc.

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

Just an update...

Spoke to the Tech a little bit ago. It took me calling the Shop three times asking them to have him call me, someone there finally just gave me his number...which seemed a bit odd. Anyways, called him and spoke to him. Apparently no one at the shop had ever told him to call me. So that's a bit irritating.

Anyways...I Spoke to him, and let him know exactly what it was doing, how it was doing it, things that seemed to make the problem present itself, and all that. He also told me that the shop had basically just told him "The amp makes a crackling noise when low notes are played" and that's it...
So after actually explaining what the problem really is to him, he said it was actually not the same sort of problem He thought based on what the shop told him. Said it could be a number of things, Filter caps could be the cause but he doesn't think that's all it is. Based on the sound he said could be Dirt/loose tube sockets, along with some cold solder joints near by, Screen grid Resistors that had gone bad, Plate load resistors going out, etc... He said he was gonna go ahead and replace all the filter caps like he'd originally planned to begin with, and check over everything else, and replace/repair any other problems that may be causing the issue, gonna test all the tubes, and clean/re-tension tube sockets and connections etc... Said he'd make sure to get it all sorted out, and then thanked me for calling (said he prefers talking directly to the customer when possible, cause it makes it easier to track down a problem when he has all the details), and apologized for the shop not getting the message to him (which isn't his fault). Also told me to save his number so that in the future if I bring another amp into there I can just call him directly to let him know whats up rather than playing telephone with the shop. So that's pretty groovy.

Also: Told him about the fuse deal, how it only happens in tube rectifier mode, etc... He said regardless of what Mesa says, that's not normal, and he's gonna check that out also, and figure out what the problem is and get it fixed for me.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

Sounds like a good guy.

 

[Condemned soul]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

The capacitor problem could be real. You need to consider the construction on the components.

The basic construction of all capacitors is of two parallel metal plates separated by an insulating material (the dielectric). Real capacitors are made by taking thin strips of metal foil and the appropriate dielectric material and sandwiching them together. Air capacitors are made with air as the dielectric.

The diagram shows the tin foil attached to wires. Imagine a piece of wax paper between them and all three are touching each other.


Think of capacitors as tin foil separated by wax paper and rolled up inside the cardboard center of a roll of toilet paper. It is mounted to a chassis that is vibrated by high volume. There may be some wear between the tin foil and wax paper. This could intermittent problems.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

The store could actually cost the tech work if they continue to act like that. I don't know how much I'd deal with them anymore. Giving simple messages seem to be out of their skill set.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

Dear store,

Please replace counter monkeys with people who care about what they're doing.

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

The store could actually cost the tech work if they continue to act like that. I don't know how much I'd deal with them anymore. Giving simple messages seem to be out of their skill set.

Yeah, they're definitely not making the tech look good for sure. The guy that finally just gave me the techs number (third call) was actually the owner.
The previous two times I talked to a different guy (who generally doesn't seem to know much about anything as far as I can tell). So it's not the whole crew there that's the problem, just one dumb ass.
I don't wanna give the impression that everyone at the store is incompetent.

Dear store,

Please replace counter monkeys with people who care about what they're doing.

Yeah they could definitely stand to replace at least one of their guys. Haha

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

So another update for anyone interested....

Finally got the amp back earlier today, tried it out in the store for a few minutes just to make sure it was fixed. All seemed fine, but I only played it for about 10 minutes at highish volume (and still not as loud as I normally play at home).
The tech had written on the receipt what he'd fixed, replaced all filter caps in the preamp section with new higher quality caps, and replaced a filter cap in the bias supply, and that's it. Said that's all it was and that it was now functioning totally perfectly.
So I got the amp home, carried it down to my basement (did I mention it weighs around 100 pounds?), set everything up, let it warm up, then started really putting it through its paces at high volume. 20 minutes later, the exact same problem started up, and it's actually worse than it was originally....

So I called the tech again, spoke to him and demonstrated the problem over the phone for him. Told him exactly what I was doing when it presented itself (i.e. Exactly the same thing as before, just like I'd told him before). He said he could clearly hear it, and that it definitely wasn't right (right? Haha), told me to bring it back in and he'd "get it all sorted out for me" and said it was a "real puzzle".

So yeah....

I'm thinking at this point I probably shouldn't even bother anymore. I got this amp on the 20th of May, and it's been in my possession and working fine for a total of three days in that time period. I still have a few days left on my 30 day "return or repair" they gave me when I got it, and I'm thinking it's not really worth the chance of hoping their tech actually gets it sorted out the second time. Ya know?

I'm just a bit worried at this point they might try and pull some **** and not let me return it since they already paid to have it "repaired" (despite it not actually being repaired). So I guess I'll see how it goes tomorrow.


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[Demanic]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

Send that sob back. Sometimes you just get a lemon.

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[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Mesa Heartbreaker now has a loud Crackle?

Send that sob back. Sometimes you just get a lemon.

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Yep that's what I'm thinking, I probably just got someone else's headache.
Hopefully they don't pull anything and try to refuse to take it back since they already paid to have it "fixed" despite it not actually being fixed.