Modern Marshalls

[richard parker]

Recently I've rehearsed a couple of times with a JCM 900 and I just played a gig using an SLX. Both pretty good sounding amps but had the same issue with both of them - an excess of treble. I had to turn the treble and presence to zero and work from there to get a usable tone. I've just watched a demo of the new DSL 40w combo. Sounded good but I noticed that the treble was at zero.

Is this common to all 'modern' Marshalls ?

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Modern Marshalls

Marshalls, in general, are bright amps. Which is why some people break out the snippers and remove the bright cap (C83 in the case of my JVM). But if a guy just throws some Mullards in the gain stages, it solves the problem, because Mullards are darker sounding tubes. Which are also the tubes that classic Marshalls are associated with, which is why they tend to be brighter sounding amps. JJs would also be something to try too, since they are also darker sounding tubes.

IMHO, most modern Marshalls would benefit from different tubes in the preamp. In my case, my JVM shipped with all Shuguang (crappy Chinese) 12AX7s. But then again, I'm not a fan of Chinese tubes in general, so I may be biased. lol. But I won't complain about the power tubes my JVM came with, because they are SED Winged Cs (my favorite poweramp tubes).

 

[Simon_F]

Re: Modern Marshalls

It's not just modern Marshalls. I usually run my JMP 2104 (made in 1980) with the treble and presence at 1 or 2. On my DSL50 (2006) the treble is usually at 4 or 5.

Speakers make a difference (I like V30s and G12H-30s better than G12T-75s).

And of course they sound better as you turn 'em up!

As mentioned above, many people snip or change the bright cap. I love the classic gain channel on my DSL but I find the ultra gain channel unusable with the same EQ settings, so I'm thinking of snipping C12 to reduce the treble on that channel.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Modern Marshalls

I sold my jcm900 marshall cause of it

they are very treble/midrangy, and no knob tweakage can solve that!

 

[ErikH]

Re: Modern Marshalls

Like mentioned, speakers make a huge difference. Also try swapping out preamp tubes. I have found with my JCM 900 MkIII that it sounds best with JJ Tesla 12AX7's in all the preamp positions. That amp is a beast and I love it.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Modern Marshalls

You can talk speakers, tubes, etc all day but they toppy amps...most guys that use them either dump the treble to zero (or just a tick above) or they have a very toppy sound...

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Modern Marshalls

I was jammin out on my '77 2203 last night, and had no problem with treble, except that if you turn up the presence and volume to much, and you arte too close, it would squeal. Im running very good tubes though, and as has been mentioned, a good cabinet and good speakers are essential. IT can get bassy real fast though, lol. I was running presence 6.5, treble at 6.5, bass at 4-4.5 and midle at 7.5-8. Pr-amp was cranked, and Master volume was at about 7. Loud, and not spikey, although as also mentioned, the bright cap was clipped out a long time ago. This Marshall KIlls! Whoever thinks vertical input JMP's /jCM's arent astonishingly good amps- ya better play one again! Do they have the girth or the sweet cleans of my Plexi circuit ealry '73 Superlead? No, but they have a very special magic all thier own. Myabe I could get that by modifying my Superlead, but I would never do that, casue that Superlead has its own magic happening in a big way, plus I would never modify a clean vintage amp like I got.

Wait- this is a "modern" Marshall thread..well, at least I tried to give some perspective.

 

[FuseG4]

Re: Modern Marshalls

when i had a dsl 50 i ran the presence and treble around 1 or 2.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Modern Marshalls

One of my amps is a Fender Vibro-King........60w listing tubes:
Tubes: five 12AX7A (p/n 013341) two GT—6L6 GE (p/n 059778) one 6V6-GTA (p/n 023564)
Instead of an attenuator or cranking volume past 6 or 7......are there 1 or 2 good tubes that would have the tone break up at much earlier volume levels (like a 3 or 4)? Thanks for any advice.............and could the same be done for Marshalls that do not distort until things are way too loud? Thanks again....

 

[CountFeedback]

Re: Modern Marshalls

stock 900 speakers G12T-75 are kind of harsh.
Generally I like older amps, mostly cuz of construction quality and lack of bells and whistles, but I've found the treble content thing to be all over the place. Old Marshalls can be too trebly, new Marshalls can be dark & mushy.

 

[richard parker]

Re: Modern Marshalls

Thanks for the responses friends. I'm thinking about the new DSL 40 combo. As much as I love my Cornford I do miss that Marshall GRIT.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Modern Marshalls

Have you considered HiWatt? Failing that, have you checked out the Catalinbread WIIO and RAH pedals?

I am finding that SD Live Wire Classic II bridge/treble pickups and some EMGs have an unpleasant edge through my Fender HR Deville that I cannot dial out. Many Marshalls have an annoying "sizzle" that will not go away.

One good thing, though. If we can still hear that annoying brightness, we have not deafened ourselves ... yet!

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Modern Marshalls

For the OP, tubes and speakers matter with a Marshall.

The original Marshall circuit was designed back when tubes and the equipment it ran with were different (granted, that circuit has been fluffed out over the years with effects loops and things, but the core of it is based on a Fender Bassman circuit.). Matching all the elements around that as period-correct as possible gets you closer to that better tone you are wanting.

In my tube leftovers I had a Mullard 10M 12AX7. I put that in V1 of my SLX and with just that I had AC/DC, Deep Purple, Free, you name-it vintage rock (I also have Svetlana Winged C EL34 in the power section, still a touch bright/biting to me, but the V1 Mullard smoothed things notably). I loved my SLX again. I run mine through Celestion Vintage 30s and alternatively 25w Greenbacks. When I bought the SLX, it had Tesla EL34s in it (not sure who made the pre tubes then) but it was that same beautiful 60s/70s rock sound, not fizzy and not too bright, but chimy when clean. I could use the presence and treble as needed to match the guitar, not for solving amp sound problems.

One of my amps is a Fender Vibro-King........60w listing tubes:
Tubes: five 12AX7A (p/n 013341) two GT—6L6 GE (p/n 059778) one 6V6-GTA (p/n 023564)
Instead of an attenuator or cranking volume past 6 or 7......are there 1 or 2 good tubes that would have the tone break up at much earlier volume levels (like a 3 or 4)? Thanks for any advice.............and could the same be done for Marshalls that do not distort until things are way too loud? Thanks again....

(Seems like a thread hijack, but it's a really good question. Probably should branch this off to a new thread if it turns into several responses.) I recently got a KT77 to test in a small amp and while most EL34s start to break up @60% on the gain knob for me, the KT77s began this beautiful break up @30% on the gain knob and all of it was useful throughout the range (this is with 12AX7 pres and GZ34 rectifier). I'm thinking of trying the KT77s in my SLX next.

6L6s break up at the last 10-15% of the volume range for me, so they aren't the tubes to use for early break up in my experience. Another tube that gets beautiful break up at lower power is a 6V6, but you have to match rectifiers and pre tubes along with it to get it right. I don't know the Vibro-King circuit to know what you can safely substitute. But spec-wise it should be a great amp as is. I'm jealous. I couldn't get that one in my budget.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Modern Marshalls

6L6s break up at the last 10-15% of the volume range for me, so they aren't the tubes to use for early break up in my experience. Another tube that gets beautiful break up at lower power is a 6V6, but you have to match rectifiers and pre tubes along with it to get it right. I don't know the Vibro-King circuit to know what you can safely substitute. But spec-wise it should be a great amp as is. I'm jealous. I couldn't get that one in my budget.

With Fenders he should want to stick to the 6L6 family of tubes because of the heater current issue. Sovtek 5881s would have earliest break up among the 6L6 family.

Back to toppy Marshalls: The Marshall tone stack is modified with a different tone stack slope resistor from the Tweed Fender after the JTM45, which makes them all brighter and gainier. On modern Marshallls the exception is the Jubilee which has a tone stack more like a Hiwatt.

But another factor with modern Marshalls is the negative feedback (presense knob circuit) connection taken from the 4 ohm lug of the output transformer. Earlier Marshalls took it from 8 ohm or the 16 ohm lugs. This made the vintage ones smoother and darker than the modern ones, but with a little less gain.

Besides tubes and speakers bias settings really matters with a Marshall. You can make a Marshall sound godly or gawd aweful with a slight twist on the bias knob.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Modern Marshalls

Recently I've rehearsed a couple of times with a JCM 900 and I just played a gig using an SLX. Both pretty good sounding amps but had the same issue with both of them - an excess of treble. I had to turn the treble and presence to zero and work from there to get a usable tone. I've just watched a demo of the new DSL 40w combo. Sounded good but I noticed that the treble was at zero.

Is this common to all 'modern' Marshalls ?

What speakers?

G12-75s are going to kill you if you don't control them.

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Modern Marshalls

With Fenders he should want to stick to the 6L6 family of tubes because of the heater current issue. Sovtek 5881s would have earliest break up among the 6L6 family.

Back to toppy Marshalls: The Marshall tone stack is modified with a different tone stack slope resistor from the Tweed Fender after the JTM45, which makes them all brighter and gainier. On modern Marshallls the exception is the Jubilee which has a tone stack more like a Hiwatt.

But another factor with modern Marshalls is the negative feedback (presense knob circuit) connection taken from the 4 ohm lug of the output transformer. Earlier Marshalls took it from 8 ohm or the 16 ohm lugs. This made the vintage ones smoother and darker than the modern ones, but with a little less gain.

Besides tubes and speakers bias settings really matters with a Marshall. You can make a Marshall sound godly or gawd aweful with a slight twist on the bias knob.

IIRC, presence is just another EQ function, and negative feedback is basically a limit on how soon or late a tube breaks up. I know with the JVM series you can do a mod that adds a pot that controls the negative feedback of the PI, which in turn controls when the poweramp distorts. It's risky to do with some other amps, but the JVM seems stable enough to pull this off. It's one of the mods on my list that I'll be doing when I get the motivation to finish modding my JVM.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Modern Marshalls

Unless you are plugged into the low input of a very old NMV of some type, Marshalls are midrangey, bright amps by nature..especially high mid focused. Speakers of course make a huge difference.

The JVM and DSL can definitely kill your ears..especially when running 75s or V30s.

I think you may wanna look into a Vintage Modern.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Modern Marshalls

I had a Marshall 2203 about 15 years ago which sounded HORRIBLE cause I could never crank it, I did not know attenuators existed. that half stack was a monster! but it is the sound:

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Modern Marshalls

IIRC, presence is just another EQ function, and negative feedback is basically a limit on how soon or late a tube breaks up. ..

No, the presence pot is in the feed back loop on Marshalls. Try switching the purple wire from the 4 ohm lug to the 8 ohm lug or 16 phm lug as an experiement.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Modern Marshalls

Run a 4x12 w/ a cross of V30's/G12h 30's. That really saturates your mix with a resplendent gooey mess of thick fat , yet bright( and a Marshall needs to be bright) goodness.