Need help with intonation problem

Re: Need help with intonation problem

Isn't this problem one of the reasons for the invention of the compensated nut?

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Yeah someone else suggested this. So I'll have to find one made for Floyd rose. I am tempted to take my old nut and file down the g slot to see how much difference it makes
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Actually, I said "next to the nut", meaning on the front surface of the nut...between the nut and the bridge. It won't do any good behind the nut.

Just to quickly and cheaply try it out first to see how it will work (and to see exactly how wide the final nut extension should be), put a piece of a toothpick under the G string next to the nut (don't worry about adjusting it for height at this point, and you can move it further away from the nut as required for best intonation). Tune your guitar as usual (open) and check intonation. If it's in tune open, but sharp at the 5th-9th frets, move the toothpick further away from the nut and retune open strings. Then check intonation again.

If you find that you get best intonation with the toothpick at, say, 1/4" from the nut, then make your little bone extension 1/4" wide, glue it in place, and file the string groove to desired height.

Heck, I've got an acoustic guitar that's had the original toothpick at the nut for the past 50 years because it worked so good.

I don't think what you are suggesting is possible. It's a floyd rose so the nut is screwed into place. Unless you are suggesting I leave it unscrewed
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Wow nice guitar bro. I know it doesn't help now but you really should have replaced the unit for a ofr not the pro.

I never knew they did compensated floyd rose nuts, that might work for you.
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

I don't think what you are suggesting is possible. It's a floyd rose so the nut is screwed into place. Unless you are suggesting I leave it unscrewed

Of course it's possible. You're not going to do anything to the clamp/string lock mechanism...leave that screwed in tight. You're just adding to the front of the nut at the G string.
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Unless you can physically move the nut slot then i don't see how that's going to help.

Well, you're not actually moving the existing nut. But by adding to the front of it at the G string, you are effectively moving the nut at that string, as far as intonation is concerned.
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Of course it's possible. You're not going to do anything to the clamp/string lock mechanism...leave that screwed in tight. You're just adding to the front of the nut at the G string.

I'm not talking about the string locking mechanism. The nut itself is screwed directly into the neck
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Well, you're not actually moving the existing nut. But by adding to the front of it at the G string, you are effectively moving the nut at that string, as far as intonation is concerned.

I know what you're saying. How do you suggest he does that?

i can think of one way but there might be easier options.



Get a small piece of metal welded to it cut some new slots and bam that will work.

OR or or

Get a strip of bone and super glue it to the nut, Slot it and BAMO. Y
 
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Re: Need help with intonation problem

I know what you're saying. How do you suggest he does that?

i can think of one way but there might be easier options.



Get a small piece of metal welded to it cut some new slots and bam that will work.

OR or or

Get a strip of bone and super glue it to the nut, Slot it and BAMO. Y

Exactly. I would do the bone super-glued to the nut, just like in your pic (a lot easier to modify). And might as well add that little bit to the "B" string as well.
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Issues like this are the entire reason why in every post about Floyd swaps I´ve ever commented on I explicitly mention the difference in mounting distance between a Schaller Floyd and everything else. Unfortunately, those that remained during my prolonged absence apparently weren´t reading, or most of the posts in this thread would not be suggesting semi-solutions and pseudo-workarounds with at best questionable chances of success and at worst guaranteed expensive failure.

The fact of the matter is that you´re missing a whole 1/16" of intonation length from the posts being exactly that much farther forward than they would be for an OFR /FR Pro, and as a result that 1/16" is missing from the knife edge-intonation point distance.

It´s almost always either the G or Low E string that bottoms out before being properly intonated.

There are exactly 2 correct solutions here.

1. Put the Schaller back in with a new baseplate for about 50$ from Allparts, LMI or Stew-Mac (or if necessary I can send you one in your choice of color that left the factory less than 24 hours before I got it, for cost + shipping of course), which will also have the brass inserts that have been standard since 1992 specifically to alleviate the stripping issues. Alternatively, in case you chucked the old one in the trash completely, Jackson /Charvel nomenclature for the trem assembly is JT-590 should you require a compeltely new unit, this has the advantage that the proper bridge radius will be pre-set, as opposed to you having to shim the saddles as would be the case on a"generic" Schaller Floyd from any other supplier. Of course Allparts, Stew-Mac and others will happily provide you with a new, non-branded Trem as well.

2. Dowel the holes and redrill them 1/16" further back. Assuming of course that you have enough meat left on the mounting ledge, which you probably won´t as the trem is recessed on a Spectrum. Should it work after all, you will probably have to extend the rout for the wings, because the baseplate will otherwise bottom out on the back lip of the cavity.

The nut is not the problem, the setup is not the problem, the ftrets are not the problem, the trem swap is very specifically the entire problem.

Therefore, Kramersteen´s recommendation to replace it with an OFR is, with all due respect, expensive bupkus, because you will habe the exact same problem. You can put in ANYTHING that is not a Schaller Trem in there, and the problem will not go away.

I will bet you free setups FOR LIFE (yours and /or mine) that you will still have the exact same problem with anything but a Schaller Floyd, unless the trem has a slightly different baseplate geometry (only one that comes to mind off the top of my head is the Graphtech Ghost...) that might just barely give you half a millimeter of extra travel and your pot of 4 leaf rabbit´s feet makes that just barely be enough to intonate.

If you don´t believe me that this is the entire problem, grab a ruler and measure for yourself. An OFR /FR pro / IBZ Edge /Gotoh /Takeuchi Floyd and similiar as well as thir knockoffs require the line between the center of the posts to be exactly 25" from the nut to intonate properly, measured along the guitar´s centerline, of course. A Schaller and only a Schaller (or copy of one ) requires 24 15/16" due to it´s slightly longer baseplate geometry. This is the same difference in geometry that makes a Schaller feel different from an OFR.

While on the topic of the nut, if you install the locking pads properly they work more effectively. Yours are turned 90°, resulting in the strings being locked at only one point across their length instead of being clamped down for the entire width of the nut. This is why the pads have a curve to the bottom when viewed from the side, and are straight when viewed from the front or back.

If your tech didn´t catch this most basic of issues, IMO he shouldn´t be working on Floyds, and probably not on guitars at all. Simply because all of this is laid out very clearly in the Guitar Player Repair Guide by Dan Erlewine, aka. "The Guitar Tech`s Bible" (there´s even a table with exact mounting distances for most popular Floyds in the Floyd Rose installation and setup chapter, OFR and Schaller FR units are explicitly included in that table), as well as numerous other works by Melvin Hiscock and other well known luthiers. These are books that anyone wanting to work on guitars in a professional capacity should ideally be able to recite cover to cover in their sleep.

Not to mention that a level and crown is most certainly NOT the proper solution to a single string not intonating. EVER. In fact, it´s almost never the solution to ANY intonation issue (there are exceptions, but they are few and far between, and usually involve significant environmental damage). But it IS a great way to earn more than you should be by selling the customer work he doesn´t need. I´m sorry he ripped you off. If I were you I´d find a new tech ASAP, ideally an honest one that actually knows what he´s doing.

Adding compensation to the nut MIGHT help you, but without the proper amount of travel available it is actually likely to cause even more problems, because you´re shortening the scale length on that one string without correspondingly repositioning the frets, which will affect your temeperament and overall in-tune-ness. Again. it MIGHT work, just like your ears also might be screaming for mercy every time you use the G string afterwards becasue they don´t like the new temperament.

But why someone would choose a halfassed crutch of a solution with a questionable outcome when you can do it right and be guaranteed that the problem is gone is entirely beyond me.

There is, however, a third potential workaround, and it is by far the cheapest of all: A wound G string. This will usually move the intonation point up to a spot in front of the B string. Not guaranteed to work, but definitely cheaper to try than wrecking and replacing the nut in a failed experiment or purchasing an entirely superfluous new vibrato unit. ;)
 
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Re: Need help with intonation problem

Thanks you so much for your response. I will read it over again but right now I'm pretty disheartened that I bought a FR pro and it won't work.... I'll read more and get back to you, what you are saying about him being a shady tech, is spot on. Man...
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Exactly. I would do the bone super-glued to the nut, just like in your pic (a lot easier to modify). And might as well add that little bit to the "B" string as well.

Thanks for the picture my brain was about to explode trying to picture that
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

Issues like this are the entire reason why in every post about Floyd swaps I´ve ever commented on I explicitly mention the difference in mounting distance between a Schaller Floyd and everything else. Unfortunately, those that remained during my prolonged absence apparently weren´t reading, or most of the posts in this thread would not be suggesting semi-solutions and pseudo-workarounds with at best questionable chances of success and at worst guaranteed expensive failure.

The fact of the matter is that you´re missing a whole 1/16" of intonation length from the posts being exactly that much farther forward than they would be for an OFR /FR Pro, and as a result that 1/16" is missing from the knife edge-intonation point distance.

It´s almost always either the G or Low E string that bottoms out before being properly intonated.

There are exactly 2 correct solutions here.

1. Put the Schaller back in with a new baseplate for about 50$ from Allparts, LMI or Stew-Mac (or if necessary I can send you one in your choice of color that left the factory less than 24 hours before I got it, for cost + shipping of course), which will also have the brass inserts that have been standard since 1992 specifically to alleviate the stripping issues. Alternatively, in case you chucked the old one in the trash completely, Jackson /Charvel nomenclature for the trem assembly is JT-590 should you require a compeltely new unit, this has the advantage that the proper bridge radius will be pre-set, as opposed to you having to shim the saddles as would be the case on a"generic" Schaller Floyd from any other supplier. Of course Allparts, Stew-Mac and others will happily provide you with a new, non-branded Trem as well.

2. Dowel the holes and redrill them 1/16" further back. Assuming of course that you have enough meat left on the mounting ledge, which you probably won´t as the trem is recessed on a Spectrum. Should it work after all, you will probably have to extend the rout for the wings, because the baseplate will otherwise bottom out on the back lip of the cavity.

The nut is not the problem, the setup is not the problem, the ftrets are not the problem, the trem swap is very specifically the entire problem.

Therefore, Kramersteen´s recommendation to replace it with an OFR is, with all due respect, expensive bupkus, because you will habe the exact same problem. You can put in ANYTHING that is not a Schaller Trem in there, and the problem will not go away.

I will bet you free setups FOR LIFE (yours and /or mine) that you will still have the exact same problem with anything but a Schaller Floyd, unless the trem has a slightly different baseplate geometry (only one that comes to mind off the top of my head is the Graphtech Ghost...) that might just barely give you half a millimeter of extra travel and your pot of 4 leaf rabbit´s feet makes that just barely be enough to intonate.

If you don´t believe me that this is the entire problem, grab a ruler and measure for yourself. An OFR /FR pro / IBZ Edge /Gotoh /Takeuchi Floyd and similiar as well as thir knockoffs require the line between the center of the posts to be exactly 25" from the nut to intonate properly, measured along the guitar´s centerline, of course. A Schaller and only a Schaller (or copy of one ) requires 24 15/16" due to it´s slightly longer baseplate geometry. This is the same difference in geometry that makes a Schaller feel different from an OFR.

While on the topic of the nut, if you install the locking pads properly they work more effectively. Yours are turned 90°, resulting in the strings being locked at only one point across their length instead of being clamped down for the entire width of the nut. This is why the pads have a curve to the bottom when viewed from the side, and are straight when viewed from the front or back.

If your tech didn´t catch this most basic of issues, IMO he shouldn´t be working on Floyds, and probably not on guitars at all. Simply because all of this is laid out very clearly in the Guitar Player Repair Guide by Dan Erlewine, aka. "The Guitar Tech`s Bible" (there´s even a table with exact mounting distances for most popular Floyds in the Floyd Rose installation and setup chapter, OFR and Schaller FR units are explicitly included in that table), as well as numerous other works by Melvin Hiscock and other well known luthiers. These are books that anyone wanting to work on guitars in a professional capacity should ideally be able to recite cover to cover in their sleep.

Not to mention that a level and crown is most certainly NOT the proper solution to a single string not intonating. EVER. In fact, it´s almost never the solution to ANY intonation issue (there are exceptions, but they are few and far between, and usually involve significant environmental damage). But it IS a great way to earn more than you should be by selling the customer work he doesn´t need. I´m sorry he ripped you off. If I were you I´d find a new tech ASAP, ideally an honest one that actually knows what he´s doing.

Adding compensation to the nut MIGHT help you, but without the proper amount of travel available it is actually likely to cause even more problems, because you´re shortening the scale length on that one string without correspondingly repositioning the frets, which will affect your temeperament and overall in-tune-ness. Again. it MIGHT work, just like your ears also might be screaming for mercy every time you use the G string afterwards becasue they don´t like the new temperament.

But why someone would choose a halfassed crutch of a solution with a questionable outcome when you can do it right and be guaranteed that the problem is gone is entirely beyond me.

There is, however, a third potential workaround, and it is by far the cheapest of all: A wound G string. This will usually move the intonation point up to a spot in front of the B string. Not guaranteed to work, but definitely cheaper to try than wrecking and replacing the nut in a failed experiment or purchasing an entirely superfluous new vibrato unit. ;)

This is such a great response and after reading further i see you said I can still use the FR pro I just have to mount it further back. I really want to punch this tech in the face. I called in and he said he would have it back to me in two days. 1 month and two weeks later after calling him many times I finally get it back, and instantly realize that my intonation problems are still there even after being charged $250. I told him about that and he took it back and the next day I went to get it back and he said there was nothing wrong and that it was "perfect" his exact words. **** that guy. Seriously **** Kelly Siedel
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

You took it to him thinking he will know exactly what to do. But if i was in your boots i would have researched the **** out of my options before taking it to a tech.

And imo i would rather find a new tremolo and sell that one on then moving the posts back. Because although it will fix the problem it might make more problems too. Its going to cost a heap to get another tech to do that and i really don't think its worth it when your guitar already has perfectly aligned posts.

just get the right tremolo or restore your old one.
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

You took it to him thinking he will know exactly what to do. But if i was in your boots i would have researched the **** out of my options before taking it to a tech.

And imo i would rather find a new tremolo and sell that one on then moving the posts back. Because although it will fix the problem it might make more problems too. Its going to cost a heap to get another tech to do that and i really don't think its worth it when your guitar already has perfectly aligned posts.

just get the right tremolo or restore your old one.

Yeah are are right on me thinking he would be able to fix it. I just wish he would have told me I had the wrong tremelo instead of seeing $ working on it knowing full well it wouldn't make a difference. Any one want a FR pro lol? I'll have to talk to Zerberus about getting a different tremelo you are right about it being alot of work and I sure am not going back to him. It's just for the money I put into this guitar I could have bought a mim strat. I love the guitar and it has potential. I just want being in tune something I don't have to worry about. It's holding me back from being a better guitarist because it's all I worry about
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

The spectrum is a rare beast that's worth every bit of effort to get it going. They seem to fetch a good price on ebay too. I wouldn't trade mine for any mim strat.
 
Re: Need help with intonation problem

The spectrum is a rare beast that's worth every bit of effort to get it going. They seem to fetch a good price on ebay too. I wouldn't trade mine for any mim strat.

I know right its a beauty and plays well. The think neck makes the high E vibrato a little difficult but I honestly love the guitar. I am pretty set on buying the new baseplate and selling the FR pro. Want you to know this is my first time posting a thread on this forum and so far I'm blown away by the response you are all awsome
 
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