PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Aceman

I am your doctor of love!
So I am thinking about taking the dive and getting a PA. I know (almost) jack about this.

Obviously some version of Cabs, amps, mixer. But obviously more choices today….Powered speakers etc…And as always, I'm cheap mofo.

So - 5 piece Metal band, playing small medium places - what would you suggest? educate me

- Cheaper is better
- simpler is better
- flexibity is nice (acoustic gigs too…)
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Input list is necessary. Who is doing what and what is going into the PA? How many stage monitor mixes do you think you'll need? How many singers?
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

powered is probably the way to go for ease and scalability. i think old heavy power sounds better than class D but it weighs a TON.

i have a pair of 10" speakers than can be used as mains or monitors, a pair of 12" speakers than can used as mains or monitors, a pair of 15"s that can be used as mains or monitors and a pair of 15" mains. lots of flexibility and you probably dont need that much especially since it takes up a fair amount of space.

like sly said, what are you putting through the pa? if its just vox then its easier than if its the whole band
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

The only reason not to go with powered cabs in your situation is because you can get used stuff for next to nothing due to so many people upgrading.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

The only reason not to go with powered cabs in your situation is because you can get used stuff for next to nothing due to so many people upgrading.
Yup. You can get good passive cabs & power amps for a song these days as folks are giving them away to buy powered stuff.

I'd suggest a new digital mixer (I'm a happy XR-18 owner) whether you go with active or passive cabs. The ability to create/store presets, provide individual monitor mixes, and put gates/EQ/compression on every channel is gonna make you sound a lot better.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

all my stuff is passive cause i already had almost all of it. its sounds fantastic but its heavy as hell
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Also consider whether or not you'll swap out lugging a half-stack in exchange for the PA system, and run into the mixer via rack or modeler. You could keep the "half-stack" look by turning an old cabinet into a rack, where all the connections are in the back so it looks like a cab and head from the front. Maybe nobody will notice the singer's mic cable running into the back of your amp head :P

If you're going to record individual instruments live, you'll want one channel per mic, and then decide what's getting a mic and what's going direct. If you're using a soundguy and an fx rack at the mixer, your mixer of choice will need sub-channels/busses/fx loops for that

Mic snake or not? Cuts down on clutter if your mixer will be out front. Cuts down on clutter on small crowded stages, also. Also adds at least 3 pounds to the whole load for a good one.


For small places, I'd say 2 speakers on stands and a rack-sized mixer should be plenty for vocals. A 2x12 and 50w head will be plenty for a guitar, and as long as the bass uses a minimum of 300w, it'll be felt/heard. If they can't hear the drums, you're doing gigs for the deaf, or it's an e-kit, in which case, the rack/sample brain for that should get a stereo split for the toms and cymbals, and split the kicks L/R if he's got 2.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

It really depends on what inputs you really need. Monitors are a whole 'nother issue, so let's start with your mains.

If you're just shoving vocals through, then a pair of 10" or 12" mains is fine. In face, if you go with powered speakers, then you don't even need a mixer. Powered speakers typically have a 1 or 2 channel mixer built in with a "link" port to connect additional powered speakers.

Another popular set up is to run vocals, kick drum (maybe snare), keys (if applicable), and possibly bass. For that you're going to want to either step up to 15" mains to achieve your low end, or stick with 10's or 12's and add a sub. Two subs for stereo is nice, but not really necessary, especially in smaller spaces.

My advice would be to stick with a passive board, and either go with powered speakers, or passive speakers and power amps. Powered boards can be had for really cheap, especially used, but you're limited to the power built in, and it's usually fairly low wattage overall. Figure out how many inputs you need, and buy the next size up. If you're micing 1 vocal, kick, snare, 3toms, 2 overheads, bass, 2 guitars and a keyboard, for instance, that's 12 channels. But if you buy a 12 channel board, and want to add back-up vocals at any point, then you're screwed. The cost for the next size up board might only be $50 difference. It's worth it to pay that once and future proof yourself.

For monitors, my best advice is look at the gigs you've played with a house PA. I'm sure you've played tons of situations with fantastic monitors, one for each band member, and I'm sure you've played many shows without monitors at all. You're on a budget, so think about how many you really need. Most likely you're going to want one or two front wedges to cover most members of the band, and the drummer to get his/her own.

I personally like the class D powered speakers that are out now. They're super loud and super lightweight (which helps when putting them up on poles). I've got a band that uses the Mackie Thumps as monitors, and they're crazy loud. My store sells/rents the Behringer Eurolive stuff, and it's killer. I've yet to have one comeback needing repair. If you go Mackie, we did have one that went out pretty immediately, but Sweetwater took care of that no problem. If you buy Behringer, buy from a local store (not a GC), and you actually get a longer warranty from what our rep told us.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Inputs:

Drums - Bass, Snare, Toms, some cymbals maybe? 4 lines
Bass - 1 line
Electrics - 2 combo amps mic'd
Acoustic - 1 direct
Vocals: 1 main + 4 backup

Not opposed to micro mixer for drums and backup mice into a main mixer.

3 monitors: 2 front, and one drum
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

So, if I got a pair of 12" Actives, we could kick up the volume just by adding another pair?

Maybe a pair of 10" for monitors?
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

powered speakers - Check

Peavey makes its mixers now with Auto-tune ( the Aceman may need that)
the 10 channel version runs $350 new. 14 Channel is $399 new

I too was looking for a new mixer
are there any out there that can plug in to a PC and work as a recording mixer as well
maybe the Peaveys can

I remember some years ago Cakewalk and Peavey had a bundle of software and mixer
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I am using my first digital mixer now. I have to say that I like it more than I thought.

Very flexible EQ, more control than cheap analog mixers do, and without cheap pots that get scratchy. Compressors everywhere (sadly not multi-band). Presets for recall, obviously. Lots of digital outputs for your recording needs to document what you are doing. Cheap meterbridge for all channels.

You can remote control the sucker, or put a non-tech in charge of changing presents based on hand signals.

Everything always works (no dead channels) until it doesn't.

I can't recommend the particular one that I have for a small P.A. (DM-24, very large and heavy), but consider me a convert.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

My dream for a small P.A. setup that also does good guitar sound goes like this:

  • Two cabinets with 1x12" plus tweeter.
  • Use EV 12L for the 12"
  • Make the tweeter's frequency crossover switchable so that you can use the two 12" speakers alone, for guitar, stereo
  • Add active 18" subwoofer with crossover for P.A. purposes

Making your own, heavy, passive 12" bricks is a bit out of fashion but I am still longing for that setup.

Most active cabinets have speaker chassis in there that are way below the build power of a 12L or 15L. Those popular EV 12" active speakers in particular. I mean they are light and all but it just doesn't feel right.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

My dream for a small P.A. setup that also does good guitar sound goes like this:

  • Two cabinets with 1x12" plus tweeter.
  • Use EV 12L for the 12"
  • Make the tweeter's frequency crossover switchable so that you can use the two 12" speakers alone, for guitar, stereo
  • Add active 18" subwoofer with crossover for P.A. purposes

Making your own, heavy, passive 12" bricks is a bit out of fashion but I am still longing for that setup.

Most active cabinets have speaker chassis in there that are way below the build power of a 12L or 15L. Those popular EV 12" active speakers in particular. I mean they are light and all but it just doesn't feel right.

This is relevant. The ELX112p is a bit along those lines. People have been trying to use it for dual purpose PA and bass. Bass didn't quite work out, but this thread is a good read-along for those who dream of multi-purpose gig things. They also go into more detail about what speaker chassis you have in those lighter active cabinets. Substantially "less" than a 12L but it is hard to judge power vs sound vs weight vs price. Good read:

http://www.talkbass.com/threads/electro-voice-elx112p-my-next-bass-amp.943152/page-6#post-18333924

In any case, those ELX112p cabinets seem like a really good option for mid-high PA speakers. I generally rate EV as one of my favorite vendors.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I'm a bigger fan of passive speakers and power amps, I think it sounds better and is easier to dial in. We use a Behringer Eurorack stereo 32 channel board (unsure of the exact model). They can be had pretty cheap, has built in effects and actually sounds pretty good.

Also, whatever you get, make sure you (or someone in your band) learns how to use it properly. It's amazing how many local shows I go to where the band is doing their own sound and everything sounds like mush.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I hate these threads, simply because this is such complex issue. I have a lot of experience, but it is hard to know where to start.

The first thing to get is....the knowledge, and I can't stress this enough. Read every book, website, article, white paper you can find. Peavey, Carvin, Yamaha and Mackie all have information on what to buy and how to use it. An idiot won't have a problem making $50,000 worth of gear sound like crap; the guy with decent gear and some knowledge can sound awesome.

I know many of these companies have user forums. Better yet, CALL!!!! I know the Mackie guys have charts to tell you how big a system you need. I've gotten tremendous help from Peavey and Carvin over the years.

But...don't believe everything people tell you. There is about as much mis-information on running a sound system, as what a seven year-old knows about making love. There are some real opinionated nitwits out there who are more than willing to give bad advice. Go to the sources.

You can buy cheaply, but don't buy cheap crap. Don't forget to budget for cables, connectors, stands, cases, and a myriad of other junk you'll need. Used can be a good way to go, if you know what you're doing.

Think modular.

You'll need something to haul it in. My Town and Country minivan isn't big enough to haul my big system, or all of my medium PA with my guitar gear. Budget for a U-Haul van or truck if you need to move it.

Yes, I have small, medium and large systems.

Two camps, power speakers vs. separate amps. Time to decide.

How important is weight? Who is going to own it? Who is going to run it? Who's going to pay for repairs when the dumbass singer drops the mic while trying to be cool and blows out a woofer?

Always buy more inputs for your mixer than what you think you'll need. Get a mixer with as many monitor sends as you can get, two is the minimum.

If you are planning to run bass and kick drum into the mains, you need subwoofers. And your top boxes need 15" woofers and horns.

You need to match your power amps to your speakers' PROGRAM POWER RATING.

PA is all about clean, non-distorted power and HEADROOM.

How big are the rooms you'll be playing in? How many people? What Sound Pressure Levels (SPL) do you need hit? You need to realistically assess these answers. You need to have enough, without over-buying. I hardly ever use my big system any more. It is QSC power, 4,000 watts; two Peavey SP-2Xs and two JBL M-Pro 215 subs. Last time I used it was in a grand hotel ballroom, 500+ people rocking out and crystal clear.

My mixer is a first-generation analog Peavey FX-16, with built-in digital effects. I like it a lot.

For a club band on a budget, I like Peavey, Yamaha, Carvin. Prices start making big jumps when you get into JBL, Mackie, QSC, EV, EAW.

My medium system uses the Peavey mixer and Carvin LM-15A plastic power speakers. These have neodymium magnet speakers and are very lightweight. Then, two LS-18A powered subs. Half the weight of the large system; 1600 watts. I like it, I can add to it if I need to. It was relatively inexpensive and it is easy to pack and set up. Plastic cabs are much lighter; most prefer the tighter sound wood boxes. This is a trade-off I can live with.

Many bands playing in small clubs and taverns can get by with a top-box mixer like the Mackie 800S, Peavey 8600, et.al. A pair of good speakers with 15" woofers or 12"s with a sub or two, and monitors, might be enough to handle vocals and some kick, but not much else. There's no real need to mic everything in a small club.

Long post. And this is just the tip of a Titanic-size iceberg. Lots to consider, so start getting SOLID information and plan accordingly.

Bill
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Only thing I'd like to add is to get more than you think you'll need. A large PA breathing heavy will always sound better than a little PA screaming.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

In the last year, I picked up a QSC TouchMix 16 digital board. Now my Mackie has been pushed to be the spare. I run that into a pair of Mackie SR-450s with the small Mackie SR-150s as monitors. No we are not playing metal. But we can get plenty loud playing classic rock. We run everything on stage I do have snake to run the board out into the room if needed). I like how compact the system is.

For me, the optimal set up would have that board in a rack with Wireless mics and wireless in-ear monitors. This way these channels would always be hooked-up and only the drums, guitars, & bass would need to run lines for each gig. The TouchMix (and several other digital boards) can be controlled with a Tablet or Smart Phone. This enables the sound person to move around the venue and make changes on an iPad and the band members can control their own monitors with their own phones.

You can also plug a hard drive into the QSC and multi-track record. That has been very useful both for live and rehearsals.

Before that, I used Mackie, Yamaha, Carvin, Behringer, and Allen & Heath. The QSC and the new Presonus give you a wealth of possibilities in a small package.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I want a nice digital board so much. There's a nice Mackie with a case for sale locally, but between everything else I'm buying right now and a move coming up in 4 months, there is no way I can swing an extra $1000.
 
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