Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

[Varg]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Uh, it doesn't sound the same because the pickup isn't in the same position as on a 22 fret guitar. Less frets on a 22 fret guitar allow the pickup to be placed closer to the frets. i.e. on a 24 fret guitar, the 22nd fret is further away from the neck pickup. On a 22 fret guitar the 22nd fret is closer to the neck pickup. On a 22 fret guitar EVERY fret is closer to the neck pickup. On a 24 fret guitar EVERY fret is further away from the neck pickup. Therefore EVERY fret will sound different on 22 fret vs 24 fret.

So to repeat: the closer a pickup is placed to the fret being played, the "neck-ier" the tone will be.

You misunderstand me. I was saying, if I was using the bridge pickup, and fretted a note at the 24th fret (or 22nd if you like, say it's a Les Paul) the fret will be close to the pickup so it should sound like the neck pickup, by your reasoning.
It doesnt.

 

[WGTP]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

I know some guitar players want to believe the world is flat, but here are some cool applets that explain the physics of pickups and placement.

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html

 

[Chad]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

You misunderstand me. I was saying, if I was using the bridge pickup, and fretted a note at the 24th fret (or 22nd if you like, say it's a Les Paul) the fret will be close to the pickup so it should sound like the neck pickup, by your reasoning.
It doesnt.

Come again? Whose reasoning?

That obviously doesn't make any sense and isn't what my reasoning was at all.

I think the problem is that you continue to read:

1. The closer a pickup is placed to the fret being played, the "neck-ier" the tone will be.

as...

2. The closer a fretted note is to a fixed pickup, the "neck-ier" that fixed pickup will sound.

Line 2 is incorrect and something totally different than what I said.

 

[Chad]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

I know some guitar players want to believe the world is flat, but here are some cool applets that explain the physics of pickups and placement.

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html

Wow, that's a cool applet. Thanks for the link. I would, however, preface it with this link as it better explains the purpose of the applet and why it was created:

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/index.html

That's a great article with a lot of depth. I could stand to read it a couple more times.


With that said...

With the applet, I was able to emulate the hypothetical "5 fret guitar" I was talking about in a previous post. I wish the applet was linear instead of log as it made it harder for me to interpret, but oh well.

Anyway, what I found is that as a pickup is moved farther away from the bridge, the fundamental gets louder. Since the fundamental is the lowest hz of all of the harmonics, with it being emphasized, the tone takes on a bassier character. As I had hypothesized, the pickup will continue to sound bassier as the pickup is moved closer to the center of string length. With a pickup placed at mid-point of string length, the fundamental is at max volume, so it would sound most bassy/neck-ish. Once the pickup is moved past the mid-point of string length and gets closer to the nut, then the fundamental starts to decrease in volume. So the other harmonics would continue to become more prominent...just like when the pickup is placed closer to the bridge. So I still align with my prior "guess" in that the tone would start to sound more like a bridge pickup. WGTP, do you agree with that?

Now, notice I was talking about harmonics in that last paragraph. While in a previous post I said that "all the harmonics stuff is bullocks". I reckon I need to answer to that. When I made the bullocks comment, I was talking about how people have said that the neck pickup on a 22 fret guitar is "perfect" because it lies below the second harmonic. THAT IS bullocks because when you fret a note, that pickup is no longer below that new note's second harmonic. The article and applet go into great detail on that.

So what it really comes down to is this:

Pickups are generally in fixed positions on most guitars (there are a couple guitars that DO have moveable pickups, but that certainly isn't the norm). The closer a pickup sits to the mid-point of string length, the more the fundamental will be emphasized, so the tone will be neck-ier/bassier. That applies to EVERY fret because the pickup doesn't move. On a 22 fret guitar (as compared to a 24 fret guitar), the neck pickup will ALWAYS be closer to the center of string length no matter what note is being fretted (or played open).

So in summary (and Varg will probably have a seizure over me saying this), it is the same as I've been saying all along:

The closer a pickup sits to the note being fretted (or played open), the "neck-ier" the tone will be. With the caveat of the "going past the mid-point of string length on the nut side" matter brought up in a previous paragraph. But I don't know of any electric guitars with a pickup placed on the nut side of the center of string length, so that matter is merely academic in the context of this discussion and doesn't have real world application.




Edit: After thinking about this, I think I had some flaws in my logic because when you fret the 22nd fret on a guitar, the bridge pickup is actually closer to the mid-point of string length than the neck pickup is. So I am going to reverse my statement on the "5 fret guitar". I now think that hypothetical guitar would sound even more neck-ish. The applet link actually discusses this matter in the "Symmetry" section. The bottom line is that the frequency response curves are very different. If WGTP or anybody have more to add, I'd be very interested in your thoughts. But right now my brain is fatigued on this topic and I'm gonna give it a rest for today.

 

[Varg]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Come again? Whose reasoning?

That obviously doesn't make any sense and isn't what my reasoning was at all.

I think the problem is that you continue to read:

1. The closer a pickup is placed to the fret being played, the "neck-ier" the tone will be.

as...

2. The closer a fretted note is to a fixed pickup, the "neck-ier" that fixed pickup will sound.

Line 2 is incorrect and something totally different than what I said.

Okay, unless you have pickups that you can move around in your guitars I just dont follow you. Never mind.

 

[Chad]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Okay, unless you have pickups that you can move around in your guitars I just dont follow you. Never mind.

I don't have any guitars with moveable pickups, but after this thread I wish I did for experimentation purposes.

How can you expect to talk about and try to understand the sound differences of different pickup placements if you don't.......talk about different pickup placements? I guess I don't follow you either.

I do know that reading bits and pieces out of context in a technical discussion like this thread is bound to lead to confusion and misunderstanding.

 

[marvelous_seven]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Wow,great response so far!
I'm gonna read a bit slowly because my noob brain might explode lol.

No "we" don't. This is obvious garbage.



Of course it changes the sounds but there's no way to make up "ideal" positions by something as absurd as using the open string's oscillations points when you rarely play open strings.

Umm,not to sound rude but may you explain further? I still don't get it.

 

[Multi Angle Vise]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Sort of a meta comment on the thread, I was a bit surprised the way this turned out. I didn't expect the 22 fret vs 24 fret to be the main topic (and I thought people going for the harmonic arguments would be in favour of the the 24 fret placement as the 22 fret pickup lies on quite few harmonic nulls).

Amazed no-one seemed to care about bridge pickup location, which for me is a much more important aspect of the guitar's construction than the the neck pickup location.

Just for fun, here's Ed Roman's take on it:
http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/scalelength.htm
http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm

(I don't agree with him at all, as per earlier post, once you fret, everything changes. Location is just personal taste.)

 

[uOpt]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Wow,great response so far!
I'm gonna read a bit slowly because my noob brain might explode lol.


Umm,not to sound rude but may you explain further? I still don't get it.

All this theory is about placing a pickup when the string is played open. It all goes out the window when you play a fretted note.

 

[WGTP]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

It doesn't go out the window, it just moves up and down the neck. I think of it as both ends of the string being a mirror image from the mid-point. On the last couple of frets, the neck pickup is "seeing" similar harmonics to the bridge pickup. As most things related to tone, it is subjective and you have to decide what you like. My son's SG has the neck pickup at the 24 fret position because of the neck joint. It has a different sound that is cool. You might find that at different places on the neck or on different strings you might prefer one location over another, but you can't have both so you have to compromise. I

I prefer the 22 fret because I like to pick in the spot the 24 fret pickup would be in.

It's sort of funny, but I don't really like the neck pickup tone that much. Leslie West and EVH had it right. I went thru the multiple combinations of strat pickup tones. If I have a neck pickup, I like it out-of-phase with the bridge.

I first got into this looking at the way the Fender bridge pickup was slanted. Some old Les Paul Jr.s I saw seemed to have the pickup farther from the bridge. Also, when they first started putting humbuckers in strats, they seemed to be farther away from the bridge.

Or course the location of your pick attack is probably going to scramble the harmonic locations along with the resonance of the guitar, phases of the moon, etc. Since the guitar is not totally without flex, the pitch changes some upon attack, as well.

 

[Mad Raxz]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

I prefer to have the bridge pickup reverse angled (I am a lefty) so the treble side is further away from the bridge, I think this makes the treble strings a bit more meaty, and the bass strings a bit more defined.

.

YEAH!!!!
Finally somebody else says it!:arms:

 

[marvelous_seven]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Sort of a meta comment on the thread, I was a bit surprised the way this turned out. I didn't expect the 22 fret vs 24 fret to be the main topic (and I thought people going for the harmonic arguments would be in favour of the the 24 fret placement as the 22 fret pickup lies on quite few harmonic nulls).

Amazed no-one seemed to care about bridge pickup location, which for me is a much more important aspect of the guitar's construction than the the neck pickup location.

Right,I expect more focus on bridge pickup too,22 fret vs 24 fret already been beaten to hell. Let's see where this thread heading. pcorn:

Just for fun, here's Ed Roman's take on it:
http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/scalelength.htm
http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm

(I don't agree with him at all, as per earlier post, once you fret, everything changes. Location is just personal taste.)

First I eat what he wrote blatantly as a whole,then I come to a conclusion that he's just a guitar clown,entertaining but not educating. :friday:

 

[uOpt]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

It doesn't go out the window, it just moves up and down the neck.

Well yes but your pickup doesn't move as you move your hand, no?

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

Got nuffing to add, except a pic.

No one told this design team about neck pick up sweet spots !

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

THere have got to be at least a dozen posts from Eltham and myself with 10k words + /each in as many threads in teh Guitar Shop + Pickup Lounge going into this in a depth that only concerted study of material resonance, string vibration physics and magnetic flux fields can offer. I don`t think it´s time for a new one, yet

But the general lowdown: That applet and many similar "imperic experiments" do not factor in flaws that by design are necessary to arrive at their conclusion. In this case the body resonance massively skews the response curce he arrived at, to the point where he actually measures "string resonance" outside of the string´s speaking length at the bridge, but at the nut there is none as is proper.

That he admits to knowing about the design flaw but proceeding anyway makes the experiment all but void.

He is however still on the right track..... But without properly isolating the string, he´s SOL

His experiment would however be more valid if one knew the exact detaily of the guitar, pickups and strings used as well as exactly where it was plucked, and THEN the pickup were moved. The response curve would turn out similar.

BTW at Germany´s main (or rather only) luthierie school at Mittenwald, a place with hundreds of years of experience in the current generation alone, there exists an instrument with a single pickup that slides on rails, has one string, and a fretless 11/12 fretboard (end´s just before the first octave)... take a wild guess what it´s designed to test and prove, and how I know about it´s existence

 

[TXspecial86]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

I think some of the ideas people have about this are a bit specious.

If you say point X is the magical point for picking up the best harmonics, that only applies to an open string. As soon as you start fretting, you've changed the string length, and the pickup is no longer in the magic position. (I don't play much on open strings so I'd need some kind of tracking device and a powered servo bed to move the pickup back and forth to keep me in the magic harmonic zone.)

Also (particularly with humbuckers) the pickup does not sense one narrow point on the string, it has a wider window than that, so it can't be that critical.

For these reasons, I don't agree with the idea that there's a mathematically based "best position". I think it's taste.

Having said that, if the bridge pickup is too close to the bridge, that can give a really tinny sound. I think there needs to be a bit of space between the bridge and the pickup, but that's based on a sample of one guitar where the pickup is hard up against the bridge. Also on a strat I prefer to have the bridge pickup reverse angled (I am a lefty) so the treble side is further away from the bridge, I think this makes the treble strings a bit more meaty, and the bass strings a bit more defined.

For the other positions I'm not too fussed. I'm sure there's a difference in sound between the neck pickup on a said to hell with it and took my old o2 fret and on a 24 fret neck, but I haven't got a preference, and I don't think you can say one is better than the other (even if Ed Roman does).

Dude you just made a lightbulb go off in my head in regards to the Bridge pickup. I had a strat im in the middle of building but waiting on the fretboard. I had some really nice 78 strat pickups that ive had worked on and ive been itching to hear them. So i said to hell with it and took my old ibanez and cut it out a bit to fit 3 single coils. Unfortunately i had about 1/2 to 3/4 inch smaller distance to place the pickups due to the 24 frets. Neck and middle are fine. Bridge sounded like i had the wrong value pot on it. After reading this I slid it further away from the bridge and swapped the direction of the angle and OMG I dare say its comparable to a strat with just a tad bit of a hollow body sound that only a guitarist would spot. But im satsfied. Im definately going to look into th bride placement on all my guitars. Ive always followed the rule of getting it as close as possible to the bridge, but no more

 

[Erlend_G]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

go to 9:55 for joe's thoughts on neck pickup placement.

......i kinda dig the interviewer too...

I think Satriani sounded the best on his first album

(on some Ibanez guitar, and Marshall amps) :/

and then progressively sounded worse, and worse, as the years went by. (to my ears!)

 

[Erlend_G]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

(and that Ed Roman's ramblings... lol!! what a meathead!! xD )

 

[Mincer]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

To me, it is just the distance from the bridge. Find a guitar that sounds sweet to you, and measure the distance of the pickups from the bridge. That is the 'right' place.

 

[ToneFiddler]

Re: Pickup placement,so what's the deal?

To me, it is just the distance from the bridge. Find a guitar that sounds sweet to you, and measure the distance of the pickups from the bridge. That is the 'right' place.

yes, but if the guitars have different scale length it’s not that easy.
then your better of with same distance from the bridge percental to the scale length.
but they will never sound the same of course