Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

I would go the other way: 59B with a SethN - much more versatile IME

That’s a good idea. I may end up just getting two Seth’s since I can get them in a pair though.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

I would go the other way: 59B with a SethN - much more versatile IME


Versatile? As far as having two pickups with very different EQ's? Good idea on paper, but I hate it in practice. Which PU do you EQ your amp to? The bridge '59 to try to warm it and fill in the missing mids, which makes the neck Seth muddy. Or EQ the amp to the neck Seth, which will make the bridge '59 even thinner and brighter than it already is. The Gibson 498T/490R set is another example of that; instead of being versatile, it frustrates a lot of players who either EQ their amp to one PU and never play the other, or they just replace the set.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

I agree that is one of the greatest tones. It’s warm and you can hear the amp being pushed. So he would have had Alnico 5 magnets in his Gibson? Sounds like the Seths are the way to go.

In the 345, almost certainly, and almost certainly 7.4 to 7.6 KOhms' worth of wire, as pre-T-Tops were wound very neatly and consistently. In the SG, with its Pat. No. pickups, also almost certainly A5 as well...though there was still some significant wind variation in those. In the Strat, almost certainly A5's.

But remember that in the Sticky Fingers "era," he mainly used amps with a ton of headroom – high wattage Fenders a lot of the time to record, and high wattage Ampegs to tour (as well as in the studio). Using a Deluxe, which is a dirtier amp, you want less pickup output in order to cop the same tones he got from his high headroom amps. So I would aim for lower output pickups, like you tend to get with the lower end of PAF winds combined with relatively weak A2 mags.

My vote is still Seths...and if not, then A2Ps, not '59's. '59's are quite strong for PAF-style pickups. That can drive a 65 or 100 watt amp really nicely. But it might push a Deluxe Reverb too hard for what you are after.

As a somewhat related sidenote, purchase orders from the PAF era of Gibson show that they ordered several different types of alnico bar magnets (alnico 2, 4, and 5 IIRC, and maybe even alnico 3), which were used to make both humbuckers and P90's. This adds even more inconsistency to PAF specs that are already highly inconsistent due to wide variations in winds. But here's the thing: 70% of the bar magnets Gibson purchased were alnico 4, a type that is very rarely used in PAF reproductions. This is more a point of trivia than a recommendation, though. I still vote Seths or A2Ps for that amp.
 
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Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

For what it's worth -
When I use a roughcast A5 in my Seth's bridge position through a Fender hot rod deluxe, I get a raw sound like Clapton on the Beano recordings. No "master volume gain" BS, just the amp master volume up full, and the regular channel on about 4, that gives me just enough crunch and loads of headroom should a boost or gain pedal be needed.
I have read on this forum many times over the years that a 59 neck with a roughcast A5 or UOA5 works great to take out the boominess. I also like the A4 as it seems to "spread out" the frequency response fairly evenly also, like the UOA5. I dislike the A2 for what I'm after, and the A5 is too boomy like people say. So I say RCA5 or UOA5 in a Seth for the bridge, and a 59 with an UOA5 in the neck. Based on my experience and all I've read here over the years.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

In the 345, almost certainly, and almost certainly 7.4 to 7.6 KOhms' worth of wire, as pre-T-Tops were wound very neatly and consistently. In the SG, with its Pat. No. pickups, also almost certainly A5 as well...though there was still some significant wind variation in those. In the Strat, almost certainly A5's.

But remember that in the Sticky Fingers "era," he mainly used amps with a ton of headroom – high wattage Fenders a lot of the time to record, and high wattage Ampegs to tour (as well as in the studio). Using a Deluxe, which is a dirtier amp, you want less pickup output in order to cop the same tones he got from his high headroom amps. So I would aim for lower output pickups, like you tend to get with the lower end of PAF winds combined with relatively weak A2 mags.

My vote is still Seths...and if not, then A2Ps, not '59's. '59's are quite strong for PAF-style pickups. That can drive a 65 or 100 watt amp really nicely. But it might push a Deluxe Reverb too hard for what you are after.

As a somewhat related sidenote, purchase orders from the PAF era of Gibson show that they ordered several different types of alnico bar magnets (alnico 2, 4, and 5 IIRC, and maybe even alnico 3), which were used to make both humbuckers and P90's. This adds even more inconsistency to PAF specs that are already highly inconsistent due to wide variations in winds. But here's the thing: 70% of the bar magnets Gibson purchased were alnico 4, a type that is very rarely used in PAF reproductions. This is more a point of trivia than a recommendation, though. I still vote Seths or A2Ps for that amp.

I didn’t consider the amp wattage and that’s a great point. I was slightly confused why I was being recommended the A2s when they would’ve been using A5s but that makes a lot of sense. Plus, it does seem like it’s be easier to add power to the Seth’s that’s it would be to try to reduce boominess in the 59s. I need to stop listening to Trey Anastasio with his 59 neck pickup. I love that tone and I think he uses a heavily modified deluxe reverb that adds a midrange knob and my guitar would sound nothing like his. Not trying to copy his tone necessarily just one of those that comes to mind then you think of a tone you’re after or appreciate.

That’s really interesting about the A4s! I never knew that. Makes you wonder where all of them ended up. I have a friend working on my deluxe right now and he said you know how they decided which PAF pickup to put in the guitar next at Gibson? And mimicked reaching into a basket without looking.
 
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Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

For what it's worth -
When I use a roughcast A5 in my Seth's bridge position through a Fender hot rod deluxe, I get a raw sound like Clapton on the Beano recordings. No "master volume gain" BS, just the amp master volume up full, and the regular channel on about 4, that gives me just enough crunch and loads of headroom should a boost or gain pedal be needed.
I have read on this forum many times over the years that a 59 neck with a roughcast A5 or UOA5 works great to take out the boominess. I also like the A4 as it seems to "spread out" the frequency response fairly evenly also, like the UOA5. I dislike the A2 for what I'm after, and the A5 is too boomy like people say. So I say RCA5 or UOA5 in a Seth for the bridge, and a 59 with an UOA5 in the neck. Based on my experience and all I've read here over the years.

Do you feel like they’re eq’d pretty evenly even though they’re technically different pickups? How hard is it to do a magnet swap?
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Versatile? As far as having two pickups with very different EQ's? Good idea on paper, but I hate it in practice. Which PU do you EQ your amp to? The bridge '59 to try to warm it and fill in the missing mids, which makes the neck Seth muddy. Or EQ the amp to the neck Seth, which will make the bridge '59 even thinner and brighter than it already is. The Gibson 498T/490R set is another example of that; instead of being versatile, it frustrates a lot of players who either EQ their amp to one PU and never play the other, or they just replace the set.

I’m not talking on paper, I’m talking about pickups I’ve actually used and played in multiple environments through multiple amps. I don’t EQ my amp to a pickup. I set the amp the way I like it, and make minor adjustments to the guitar.

You seem to perceive pretty extreme frequency responses out of pickups. Through my equipment, I haven’t heard nearly the extremes you portray, but there are numerous factors why that would be. For one, I think if you are getting very different EQs, part of it might be because you adjust your amp to one pickup.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

I think if you are getting very different EQs, part of it might be because you adjust your amp to one pickup.


I never set my amps for one pickup. I want both PU's to sound very good with the same setting, hence my incessant tweaking of magnets, pots, alternative wirings, etc.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

As a side note, has anyone here had any experience with Porter pickups? I see that the smooth/classic is pretty popular and I actually had the chance to play them the other day. Very articulate and warm with a lot of note clarity. I have never played their Anthem PAFs so I can’t speak to those. Just curious if anyone has other experiences with them.

I played them in a Les Paul so it is hard to make a comparison to the dot.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

In the 345, almost certainly, and almost certainly 7.4 to 7.6 KOhms' worth of wire, as pre-T-Tops were wound very neatly and consistently. In the SG, with its Pat. No. pickups, also almost certainly A5 as well...though there was still some significant wind variation in those. In the Strat, almost certainly A5's.

But remember that in the Sticky Fingers "era," he mainly used amps with a ton of headroom – high wattage Fenders a lot of the time to record, and high wattage Ampegs to tour (as well as in the studio). Using a Deluxe, which is a dirtier amp, you want less pickup output in order to cop the same tones he got from his high headroom amps. So I would aim for lower output pickups, like you tend to get with the lower end of PAF winds combined with relatively weak A2 mags.

My vote is still Seths...and if not, then A2Ps, not '59's. '59's are quite strong for PAF-style pickups. That can drive a 65 or 100 watt amp really nicely. But it might push a Deluxe Reverb too hard for what you are after.

As a somewhat related sidenote, purchase orders from the PAF era of Gibson show that they ordered several different types of alnico bar magnets (alnico 2, 4, and 5 IIRC, and maybe even alnico 3), which were used to make both humbuckers and P90's. This adds even more inconsistency to PAF specs that are already highly inconsistent due to wide variations in winds. But here's the thing: 70% of the bar magnets Gibson purchased were alnico 4, a type that is very rarely used in PAF reproductions. This is more a point of trivia than a recommendation, though. I still vote Seths or A2Ps for that amp.

Do you think the Alnico IIs are going to be spunky enough? I just worry the A2s will be too “weak” maybe? I’m mainly paranoid that I won’t be able to get the Trey/Stones tone without A5s but I see what you’re saying about the amp though.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Do you think the Alnico IIs are going to be spunky enough? I just worry the A2s will be too “weak” maybe? I’m mainly paranoid that I won’t be able to get the Trey/Stones tone without A5s but I see what you’re saying about the amp though.
One can have "spunky" PAF-alikes with alnico II. Seths are pretty spunky and clear, as are the Pearly Gates.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

One can have "spunky" PAF-alikes with alnico II. Seths are pretty spunky and clear, as are the Pearly Gates.

Do you think there is a big difference in the attack of A2 vs A5?
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Do you think there is a big difference in the attack of A2 vs A5?

Definitely. There is more difference between an A5 and the lower numbered alnicos than there is between any of those lower numbered alnicos. They have more output and they are slightly brighter, even when magnetized to the exact same strength as any of the lower numbered alnicos. Then you add in the fact that they actually are stronger magnet than those other lower numbered alnicos (i.e. are not magnetized to the same strength as A2/3/4), and you have a fairly different sounding magnet than any of the others. They are far more sensitive to the right hand, and tend to have a little more top end.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Do you think there is a big difference in the attack of A2 vs A5?

All other things being equal, yes. I had a 59n in my Epi LP a while back and found it too boomy. I went so far as to cut the fillister screws short and eventually swapped in an alnico II mag into it. I found that the pickup got warmer with less attack but more note bloom. It was GREAT for fingerstyle jazz, IMHO. I eventually swapped it for a APHn, then a PGn, and now a Phat Cat lives in that slot.
 
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Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

All other things being equal, yes. I had a 59n in my Epi LP a while back and found it too boomy. I went so far as to cut the fillister screws short and eventually swapped in an alnico II mag into it. I found that the pickup got warmer with lwss attack but more note bloom. It was GREAT for fingerstyle jazz, IMHO. I eventually seapped it for a APHn, then a PGn, and now a Phat Cat lives in that slot.

When you say you found it too boomy, do you mean too bassy or like unbalanced?
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Definitely. There is more difference between an A5 and the lower numbered alnicos than there is between any of those lower numbered alnicos. They have more output and they are slightly brighter, even when magnetized to the exact same strength as any of the lower numbered alnicos. Then you add in the fact that they actually are stronger magnet than those other lower numbered alnicos (i.e. are not magnetized to the same strength as A2/3/4), and you have a fairly different sounding magnet than any of the others. They are far more sensitive to the right hand, and tend to have a little more top end.

Ahh I see. I think that’s what I’m worried about missing out on with Alnico 2s. The potential for a “plunky” “biting” attack. This is a tough decision.
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

59s can be had pretty cheap used. id grab a set of those and see what ya think. magnets are inexpensive and its easy to swap them. the wind of the 59 is great and maybe youll love them stock
 
Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Ahh I see. I think that’s what I’m worried about missing out on with Alnico 2s. The potential for a “plunky” “biting” attack. This is a tough decision.

Personally, I like to work with the inherent tones of each pickup position, rather than fighting them. That means I actually want a bright and biting bridge pickup and a warmer, smoother neck pickup. Modern balanced pickup sets try to fight this tendency of older pickup sets, but I actually like it the old way. So I am inclined to go A2 neck, A5 bridge, while others looking for a "balanced" set would probably do the opposite.

Consider: Seth neck, '59 bridge, or Seth neck, '59 neck in the bridge spot. Or Seth neck, Jazz bridge. Or Seth neck, Saturday Night Special bridge (A2 neck, A4 bridge in that case).
 
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Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

When you say you found it too boomy, do you mean too bassy or like unbalanced?

Too much bass for my taste.

Keep in mind, this was in an Epi LP, which is a single cut made from mystery-mahogany and who knows how much maple in the top. A double cut ES style guitar will tend to have less bass response from the neck position.
 
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Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

Re: Seth Lovers vs ‘59s Epiphone Dot through DRRI

59s can be had pretty cheap used. id grab a set of those and see what ya think. magnets are inexpensive and its easy to swap them. the wind of the 59 is great and maybe youll love them stock

Do you have any luck on the forums here or do you suggest looking elsewhere like eBay? I see a ton for sale on eBay but most of them are uncovered.
 
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