Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

[JMI Music]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

I'd pick the Seths all the way in there. But given the choice with Seths and most any pickup, they would win.

I don't know if this would be an issue for you but the Pearly's are waxed, the Seth's aren't waxed
.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

DRM - don't know you, so don't take this as an attack, because it isn't - but I don't agree with this at all...we are probably both correct in that various groups of players did/didn't do these things for assorted reasons.

Point by point:

The chrome covers will alter the tone.
- This is debatable. I think the general consensus (and I agree) is that it does. How much is a different issue. I will say so little it doesn't matter in any practical sense. Other s will disagree. Of course, experience may vary depending on the style of music.

And generally not in a good way.
- Again, one man's good way is another man's perfect tonal tweak. Pends on what the guitar and your ears want. I disagree with this statement far more than your first

This is why guitarists started taking the covers off.
- I think this has nothing to do with it. Guitarists started taking the covers off because they wanted the pickups closer to the strings. I'm sure there are all sorts of other reasons; Couldn't solder back on, cheaper to make without, etc...

Now it's a fad to have covers on because of how they look.
- I must have missed this fad, or it is creeping up so slowly I missed it.

So are you interested in the tone or the looks?
- Is there any reason he can't do both?

Personal experience: I took a cover off the bridge to get it closer/hotter. I left the neck cover on because, well, Jimmy Page did it. Again, your mileage may vary. There would be many who say that a PG bridge would benefit tonally from a cover. Perhaps the Seth, not so much.

No, players started taking the covers off because the pickups are brighter, and louder without covers. You can get the pickups just as close with covers. They aren't very thick. But no one put the pickups that close anyway.

You might or might not remember all this depending on your age. I'm 60.

The fact that until recently all the replacement pickups, as well as from Gibson, didn't have covers is because that's what players preferred.

It's not debatable that they alter the tone. This is due to eddy currant losses. Seth Lover himself wanted stainless steel covers to help prevent this. Gibson didn't want to spend the money. Nickel silver is a good compromise. Some newer pickups do come with SS covers, such as EMG. Other examples of working around the eddy current issue is the slots in the covers on Filter'Trons and Dearmond/Rowe pickups.

What he covers do is flatten and lower the resonant peak. Of course these days the fad is to have "warm" (dark) sounding humbuckers. Players seem to be afraid of treble! So the covers can be a means to that end.

I had an '81 LP Standard with Shaws. I removed the bridge cover, but left it on the neck. The neck pickup sounded better with it on that guitar.

I do make some closed chrome covered pickups, and that's entirely for looks. But on my own guitars I never use them.


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[Mincer]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

I don't know if this would be an issue for you but the Pearly's are waxed, the Seth's aren't waxed
.

This is true. But it isn't really much of an issue if you don't play really loud, stand right in front of the amp, and use metal-amounts of gain.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

This is true. But it isn't really much of an issue if you don't play really loud, stand right in front of the amp, and use metal-amounts of gain.

Didn't know metal guys are the only one who have an issue with feedback and microphonics...

 

[Mincer]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

It should say 'or'. Anyone playing with super loud volume on stage will have a problem, but most players go for a more balanced sound rather than just 'loud'.

 

[Davii]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

What happened to chrome covers anyway? I used to be able to get them via eBay, but they appeared to disappear (haha!) off the face of the planet for SD.

I can't tell the slightest bit o' difference between covered/uncovered. The Seths being unpotted could potentially show up how good, or not the guitar itself is perhaps?

 

[Aceman]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

No, players started taking the covers off because the pickups are brighter, and louder without covers. You can get the pickups just as close with covers. They aren't very thick. But no one put the pickups that close anyway.

You might or might not remember all this depending on your age. I'm 60.

The fact that until recently all the replacement pickups, as well as from Gibson, didn't have covers is because that's what players preferred.

It's not debatable that they alter the tone. This is due to eddy currant losses. Seth Lover himself wanted stainless steel covers to help prevent this. Gibson didn't want to spend the money. Nickel silver is a good compromise. Some newer pickups do come with SS covers, such as EMG. Other examples of working around the eddy current issue is the slots in the covers on Filter'Trons and Dearmond/Rowe pickups.

What he covers do is flatten and lower the resonant peak. Of course these days the fad is to have "warm" (dark) sounding humbuckers. Players seem to be afraid of treble! So the covers can be a means to that end.

I had an '81 LP Standard with Shaws. I removed the bridge cover, but left it on the neck. The neck pickup sounded better with it on that guitar.

I do make some closed chrome covered pickups, and that's entirely for looks. But on my own guitars I never use them.


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I'm sorry. I'll completely revise my opinion on this. I'm only 50. I guess that extra decade really made a difference...

:notworthy

I look forward to more clarification posts from you in the future! Welcome!!!!!

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

What happened to chrome covers anyway? I used to be able to get them via eBay, but they appeared to disappear (haha!) off the face of the planet for SD

AFAIK, Duncan never made chrome-plated covers for their p'ups. They're nickel-plated.

You can get chrome covers from axesrus.

HTH,

 

[freefrog]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

Artie,
When I've tried several models to upgrade an Epi LP, I've preferred the Seth's compared to other models (PG but also AlnicoPro, SH1 and even Schaller Golden 50's, like the ones mounted in Heritage guitars).
Reason: the Seth's helped to emulate the more "mid centric" resonance of a Gibson LP. Pearly Gates, conversely, tended to enhance the drier/brighter/flatter resonance of the mentioned Epi, making it less rich and "real" sounding.
YMMV, according to the specific tonal personality of your own Epi....

 

[Davii]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

AFAIK, Duncan never made chrome-plated covers for their p'ups. They're nickel-plated.

You can get chrome covers from axesrus.

HTH,

They used to sell after market covers, and were advertised on the old site, but disappeared circa 18mths/2yrs ago.

Yeah, I've had a cover from Axesrus, though their prices aren't the best :-S

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

They used to sell after market covers

They still do. Nickel- and Gold-plated.

But a SKU for a Chrome cover never existed in the Duncan catalog... and I have'em all since 2006. I've checked!

So, I can't really tell if your case is far too many or not nearly enough drugs involved...

J/K :cool2:

 

[Davii]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

They still do. Nickel- and Gold-plated.

But a SKU for a Chrome cover never existed in the Duncan catalog... and I have'em all since 2006. I've checked!

So, I can't really tell if your case is far too many or not nearly enough drugs involved...

J/K :cool2:

I'm tellin' the troof, honest guvnah! I know they still do, as I still get the gold covers from the same place I got the chrome ones... That is, until the chrome ones never existed, and post Brexit exchange rates all but killed off buying gold ones :-S

I was about to suggest it being possible my suspiciously chrome looking ones could be fake, or nickel, and advertised as chrome, but I still swear blind they were on the old SD website.

Anyhoo, pass that smoke maaaaaaaaan :smokin:

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

I'm sorry. I'll completely revise my opinion on this. I'm only 50. I guess that extra decade really made a difference...

:notworthy

I look forward to more clarification posts from you in the future! Welcome!!!!!

I'm going by what I saw, guitarist I met, and in interviews I read in Guitar Player I read growing up. And my personal experience on every guitar I owned with humbuckers. Well the ones with covers. Notice most guitars don't come with covered pickups anymore. But in the past few years it's become fashionable, along with the fake vintage style guitars. I've been playing almost 50 years. You learn a thing or two in that time. [emoji6]


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[SJ318]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

DavidRavenMoon -
I am 64 and I second everything you said as pure, unarguable (with me) fact.
You sir, in one post, just stayed everything I know to be true, as I was there too. I had chrome covers that were on my
'60's Les Paul Custom. The gold original covers were in the case. The bridge sounded awful. I had been using uncovered t-tops in my 335. When I removed the Crome covers it was like the old expression: a blanket lifted off my sound. T was not "a little".
It was like night and day. They were also t-tops.
Aceman -
I look up to you very much. I admire your knowledge and have followed some of your great advice. But at 14, when I really started to tear stuff apart and learn what I could by doing, I found all the things Mr. DRM to be true. By the time I was 24, all this stuff was common knowledge with all my guitar friends. Serious players. So, maybe a decade could make a difference.
That is a long, long, time back then when Hendrix Clapton, etc. we're doing just that, especially Page, Clapton, Jeff Beck, they all said it opened up their sound, Clapton made a big deal about in a mag from the late 60's.
Ok, my bazillion cents,
Steve B.

 

[vinnie1971]

Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

Hmmm... I'd always say go with your ears, but I can't visualize that guitar with black or zebra bobbins - maybe double-whites/creams.


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I agree. Having messed with covers on / off I don't think they kill tone at all they just make pickups a little warmer and fatter sounding to my ear, but most people hear no difference because the difference is so subtle. Covered whichever way.

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[freefrog]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

I'm only 53 (LOL) but here are my own worthless two cents:

Yes, obviously, eddy currents due to plain covers cause a slight alteration of the resonant peak, making any pickup slightly duller.

No, not less obviously, this change is not always detrimental: if the pickup has been designed to receive covers, it might sound a bit too thin once uncovered.

IOW, I don't think any of the posts above to be wrong: in my understanding, it's just a question of perspective and of communication. )


Footnotes :

-one of the boutique P.A.F. replicas set that I use is so uber clear that it not only sounds better with covers but gives its best tone (to my ears) with Gibson Chrome covers - whose composition not only brings eddy currents but also increases the inductance (!). Another set in another guitar had to stay uncovered and to be wired to a no load tone pot. Thx to these opposite solutions, the two sets sound extremely close to each others, avoiding me to tweak my amps on stage.

-regarding eddy currents due to covers, an engineer has published a solution. I've not yet tried it but it's an interesting reading, to say the least: http://kenwillmott.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Pickup_Cover_Geometry.pdf

-Artie, I'll drivel a bit: IF your Epi is like those that I've upgraded and IF your goal is a classic LP tone, Seth's might be the ticket. But maybe you'll prefer the PG's, who knows? It doesn't matter as long as it makes you happy. Let us know which solution you'll have selected...

Have a nice day, gentlemen.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

Freefrog-
Great atrtical, thank you,
SB

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

Freefrog-
Great article, thank you,
SB

Fixed it for ya!

 

[SJ318]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

Lt. Kojak!
Ha, thanks for the fix. Some times I don't proof reed.
Buff

 

[Artie]

Re: Seth's or PG's? That is the question.

I love it when a "problem" solves itself. (Just as much as I love finding a guitar that I forgot I had.) So, the Seth's will go into the Pelham Blue EPI LP, and the PG's will go into my Agile Blue Flame LP.



No problem.

It's not debatable that they alter the tone. This is due to eddy currant losses.

I agree with the first sentence. Not so much on the second.

Yes, obviously, eddy currents due to plain covers cause a slight alteration of the resonant peak, making any pickup slightly duller.

I agree they may alter the tone, but disagree that it's due to eddy currents. IMHO

-regarding eddy currents due to covers, an engineer has published a solution. I've not yet tried it but it's an interesting reading, to say the least: http://kenwillmott.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Pickup_Cover_Geometry.pdf

Read that. Don't agree.

Let me explain my position. Clearly, there are people more educated and experienced than me who promote this "eddy current" thang in guitar pickups. Bill Lawrence was a big proponent of this phenomenon. The math, and the results of my own research, don't bear this out. Eddy currents came to be an issue in power transformers, where the eddy current flow was enough to heat up the transformer frame, making it less efficient. But those levels don't exist in a guitar pickup. The output voltage of a typical humbucker, strummed normally, is around 500 mv's. If driving a 500k pot, in parallel with a 1M amp input impedance, you have a load of around 333k. That results in a peak current flow of approximately 1.5 microamps. Remember, that's the actual current flow that we want. Micro-amps! Any eddy currents created by that current level would be unmeasurably minute. Fractions of a millionth of an amp. "Trace" levels. (But not even that much.) Like the amount of alcohol in 7-Up. The alcohol in 7-Up has no affect, but can be measured in a lab. Thus the "trace" designation. I tried to measure the eddy current in a pickup cover in a temperature and humidity controlled calibration lab, in a Faraday cage, using a high tech calibrated pico-ammeter. That's a lab grade ammeter that can measure down to a fraction of a picoamp. We could not measure anything. Zip. Nada. No matter how hard we tried.

So . . . I'm just not buying the whole eddy current phenomenon as it applies to pickup covers. IMHO.
I'm not arguing that they don't affect tone. I'm just saying it isn't due to eddy currents.

Artie