...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

[chcjunior]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

I can't stand 'em either. But...my GNX3 serves the purpose of allowing to play the electric in my condo. I could see where the versatility of the digital amp could serve someone playing in a cover band with the need for alot of different sounds. That being said, I doubt I'll ever own one.

 

[Davey]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

Boy... Some of you guys seem to be taking all of this in a very personal way. So what if someone hates digital stuff? It's their right, just as it is your right to disagree. I didn't read JS's post to be a personal affront to anyone, just a statement of preference.

it's not that... personal views are ok. but i cant stand someone bashing them just because they offer a cheap alternative to a lot of amps/effects for the working guitarist that wants to have fun

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

Let 'em bash away. It doesn't effect what you hear, does it? If not, then don't worry about it. That would be my advice.

 

[JeffB]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

it's not that... personal views are ok. but i cant stand someone bashing them just because they offer a cheap alternative to a lot of amps/effects for the working guitarist that wants to have fun

Nobody is debating that Davey..not that I can see anywa. No doubt they offer ALOT of bang for the buck.

The debate is (and really it's not a debate but a discussion), how well do they REALLY model the amps? Is the mimicing "close enough". For some of us "No" for some of us "yes".

The amp tones are hit or miss, IME with Vox and Line 6. Some models are pretty good, some I just scratch my head about. Where I think they model REALLY well is effects..I was amazed how authentic the MXR 90, CE1, and TS on my XTL are.

I think the real issue here is...is it just the "tone" of tube amps that makes them so good? For most tube amp guys, I think they will say that's just one component, that modellers can at times come fairly close to. The dynamics/feel/warmth/3Dimensional sound is where the biggest gap lies between the two technolgies.

I think all of us would agree they serve well for those who need a variety of decent sounds at a price anyone can afford. I love my XTL for that. But ultimately compared to my 1987X or my Rivera or my old 800s, or Laneys, Jackson, etc....they pale tonewise.

Play a tube amp for 20 years then grab a X modeller, you'll understand. Jeff's argument is alot of folks don't REALLY know the difference. And sometimes people get "fooled"..I did...(never was the brightest bulb in the box ). Yet there are people who ARENT going for classic sounds, or aren't concerned with authenticity , etc...so modellers to them are the cat's meow. again though, that is not the "debate" (as I see it anyway).

 

[Hoss]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

this reminds me of a 20+ page thread that was around when i first joined up!

LOL!!!

 

[Rich_S]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

First off, having actually met Jeff Seal, I can assure everyone he's the last person around here who would want to offend anybody.

Second, I do see where he's coming from. The ONLY reson I can think of for digital amps is the wide tonal pallet, which IMO is a case of quantity over quality. I've spent years swapping amps, looking for my tone and I've got it pretty well narrowed down - I like cranked Marshalls. So, why go to all the trouble of a multi-layer PC board, DSP processor chips, and all the sampling and modelling software, when I really just need this?

It might look like a rats nest to some, but I can see the entire signal path laid out right in front of me. Its componenet count is low - just 3 tubes and a coupla dozen resistors and caps. I can troubleshoot it, tweak it as desired, and guess what? It sounds like an overdriven tube amp because it IS an overdriven tube amp.

From Jeff's perspective (the guy who has to repair them) it's just silly to use CPUs and DSP's containing millions of transitors to simulate a few tubes, especially when the digital stuff fails in the end to sound as good as the tubes did in the first place.

As far as the vesatility/wide tonal pallette thing goes, I think many choices can be a good thing when you're investigating tones but as we start to grow as artists, we have to start developing our own style. At some point, we narrow the choices to what's "us", and I think these narrowed ranges can usually be handled by a few amps and effects. Someday, I'd like to get a better clean sound but I won't replace my Marshall clone with a digital amp with 87 models to get it. I'll just add a nice Deluxe or Super and an A/B switch and I'm good.

 

[Mincer]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

As far as the vesatility/wide tonal pallette thing goes, I think many choices can be a good thing when you're investigating tones but as we start to grow as artists, we have to start developing our own style. At some point, we narrow the choices to what's "us", and I think these narrowed ranges can usually be handled by a few amps and effects.

We have to remember, the majority of guitarists like classic sounds, or variations on classic sounds. As a pro, I realize I am about as far away from the majority as you can get. I can't narrow what I like to a few tones. While I like the sound of a cranked Marshall- I like it when other people use it, not me. They are also simply too loud to use onstage in my band. Modelers aren't just for beginners, or people who don't know what a good sound is. It is a tool like any other.
Also, every studio I have done sessions for is using either PODs, AmpliTube, Guitar Rig or Logic to get guitar sounds.

 

[kevlar3000]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

My mind is very open about this stuff. It exposes a whole range of players to tones they like might never had heard of could have afforded to own. The classics are a limited resource and the boutiques are far too spendy for the vast majority of players. I have heard a lot of very quality sounds out of these amps, I own all vintage stuff and will definately take the old stuff but I absolutely welcome this technology.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

i cant see someone cranking their powerball full stack they got in their bedroom in a city. just not going to happen.


That's why I got rid of my three plexi reissues and my 73 50 watt Marshall head. I moved to a suburb and they just sat, and sat, and sat....

Got me a Line 6 Vetta and two Hughes & Kettner cabs, loaded them with The "Line 6" Celestion speakers and the sound is awesome at bedroom levels and at high volumes if I need it. I also run it in stereo with any of my tube amps so the tube tone is there. I love the Vetta and when playing in front of a room full of drunken chicks and headbangin' guys. Nobody complains that it's not a tube amp (not that I play for tons of drunken chicks, heh, heh)

:gurmpy:

 

[shredaholic]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

The only way I can tolerate a modeler is to have it as a head version on a high quality cab, and then it's only for low volume practicing. Compared to my tube amps it doesn't have the complex goodness, and they never will.....it's just not physically possible for a modeler to capture a good tube amp tone. They can get the sound, but they can't equal the feel or touch sensitivity. They all have their place as tools in the toolbox.

+1

i think technology will evolve past the need for tube amps, but at the moment theres nothing on the market that comes close to a cranked 100w plexi (although some people might not be after that sound, patches that try and replicate it are still pretty far off)

 

[Scott_F]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

Why go to all that trouble just to, in essence, to convince someone that they don't really like what they like?

because he's as addicted to this stuff as much as you and I are...

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

I think the best approach is just to view modelers and tube amps in the same way you would other tools in a toolbox. The modeling amp is like a socket set, which has it's purpose, and tube amps are like a hammer, saw, or screwdriver. Simple and effective, and all have their place, whether you're a musician or a carpenter.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

Last week I heard Buddy Guy playing through some kind of Cyber Twin or Cyber Concert and the night before, I heard Adrian Belew playing through a pair of Line 6 amps.

Both players sounded absolutely fabulous! Great tone and great feeling.

I think digital amps sound fine...but I'd rather listen to one then play through it myself.

When I play through them I feel like the tone is kind of hi fi and sterile. But when I listen to someone else play through them I don't hear that sterile quality.

It's more of a feeling for the player...not the listener, I think.

 

[aleclee]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

I find the tone on DMAs to be just okay. That's still better than a tube amp sounds at bedroom volume, though. Then there's the sparkle & swooshieness that DMAs can't seem to capture. When my tube amps start doing that, it's a good thing I have my guitar slung 'cause I'm probably sporting a chubby.

As for the accuracy of the modeling, it varies from model to model. I find some to be pretty good (e.g., L6's Soldano models) while many others aren't even close. For someone to think that they know what it's like to play a certain amp because they've played a modeler's emulation is pretty ignorant, IMO. Not only does the quality of the facsimile vary quite a bit, DMA's rarely feel like the real deal.
IMO, the biggest problem with modeling is latency. A lag of a few ms is more noticeable than you'd think and really messes with the feel of the amp. Though the timbre will continue to get more realistic, I think the latency problem is going to be a bit harder to solve in a cost-effective manner.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

I view this issue the much same way Joneser does. I have both tube amps (1 vintage and 1 very loud and pretty decent channel switcher, but no "boutique" stuff) and 2 modelers, and what do I use most often? My Vox VTH60. Why, because it suits my particular playing situation more of the time.

I certainly prefer Vox to Line 6, based on my experience with both, and the head version to the combos, again based on my personal experience with both. I have several times heard guys play thru line 6 gear and thought it sounded good, but Line 6 stuff never sounds good to me when I'm playing thru it. I'm curious about this though, every time I've heard somebody sound decent thru Line 6, it is with an LP or PRS style guitar. Anything to this or just coincidence?

 

[75lespaul]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

I view this issue the much same way Joneser does. I have both tube amps (1 vintage and 1 very loud and pretty decent channel switcher, but no "boutique" stuff) and 2 modelers, and what do I use most often? My Vox VTH60. Why, because it suits my particular playing situation more of the time.

I certainly prefer Vox to Line 6, based on my experience with both, and the head version to the combos, again based on my personal experience with both. I have several times heard guys play thru line 6 gear and thought it sounded good, but Line 6 stuff never sounds good to me when I'm playing thru it. I'm curious about this though, every time I've heard somebody sound decent thru Line 6, it is with an LP or PRS style guitar. Anything to this or just coincidence?

Gotta tell ya, my two Les Pauls and all my humbucker guitars sound MUCH better than my single coils through the Vetta. The only single coil that sounds good is my Mooretone which has "exact" replicas of the late 50's, early 60's strat pickups. I had to spend a lot of time with the Fender amp models to get a good overdriven blues sound, but with that guitar I did it.

I do have a 57 Musicmaster and a 66 Duo-Sonic along with a MIM strat with American strat pickups and none sound good through the Vetta. Through my little 65 Fender Champ they sound great so I know the Vetta just doesn't like these guitars.

:beerchug:

 

[75lespaul]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

Last week I heard Buddy Guy playing through some kind of Cyber Twin or Cyber Concert and the night before, I heard Adrian Belew playing through a pair of Line 6 amps.

Both players sounded absolutely fabulous! Great tone and great feeling.

I think digital amps sound fine...but I'd rather listen to one then play through it myself.

When I play through them I feel like the tone is kind of hi fi and sterile. But when I listen to someone else play through them I don't hear that sterile quality.

It's more of a feeling for the player...not the listener, I think.

Lew, unless it's shred metal I'm playing--which is not often--I just HAVE to have the Vetta A/B'd with a tube amp. I guess that's why I love the Vetta--the tones are great but the feel comes from my tube amp. I also use the effects with the Vetta and run the tube amp dry or with a little reverb.

Plus the Vetta has lotsa pretty lights. C'mon, isn't that worth the lack of tubes??? :laugh2:

 

[Farkus]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

I think the digital stuff is fine for bedroom playing. To get my JCM 2000 to sound good, it's way too loud for the apartment. This is of course not a problem at a gig. So as a practical matter, I use them at home.

In terms of how accurate modeling amps are, I don't think anyone here who has experience with 'the real thing' and the modeling amps would argue that they are spot on. They are useful for getting good recording tones though, for sure.

BTW, I love my POD 2.0's 'tube preamp' setting and reverb for my Ibanez Classical. Can go direct to board and get great tone.

It all depends on your application.

Mark

 

[Jeff Seal]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

....wow, ummm.....my apologies for my rather "broad" generalization

My intentions are not to change anybody's mind, but rather to explore new possibilities. (sorry, it's a rather annoying habit of mine!).... :wave:

I am most certainly not anti-digital, I'm still just waiting for a combo to deliver the "goods"...nothing more, nothing less.....this has been done before, but it's always been rackmount stuff and not quite as portable as what most would like.

I did not mean to insult anyone or their gear!.....I usually just get to try out the gear that comes through the shop, so it's not like I've tried everything. I'm always looking for new tones, regardless of how it's accomplished....the thing I do like about digital is it's lightweight!

Jeff Seal

 

[75lespaul]

Re: ...sorry, but I can't stand digital amps....

I think the digital stuff is fine for bedroom playing. To get my JCM 2000 to sound good, it's way too loud for the apartment. This is of course not a problem at a gig. So as a practical matter, I use them at home.

In terms of how accurate modeling amps are, I don't think anyone here who has experience with 'the real thing' and the modeling amps would argue that they are spot on. They are useful for getting good recording tones though, for sure.

BTW, I love my POD 2.0's 'tube preamp' setting and reverb for my Ibanez Classical. Can go direct to board and get great tone.

It all depends on your application.

Mark

Oh, no way does my Vetta nail any of the tones. The thing is, they are good tones and sound kinda like the amps they're modelled after. Plus it's really loud, looks cool and has lotsa purty lights. Hee Hee.