The best cap material for tone pot

[CarlosG]

I wonder what is the best capacitor material for tone pot.
I spent several days researching the subject. I read statements from luthiers, pickups producer, electronics and people from hi'fi equipment.
Each of them has a different opinion.
Some people say that the best cap is polyester.
Some people say that the best cap is ceramic, but foil cap (polyester, polypropylene) and paper in oil isn't good because it can catch radio waves. But some people say that ceramic cap isn't good because has piezoelectric properties. People from hi-fi audio equipment say that the best cap for audio track is 1'st polystyrene 2'st polypropylene. They also say that polyester cap isn't good because distorts the band, it gets warmer. Some people think this has no effect because no sound flows through the capacitor because the signal is shorted to ground using resistor (pot) and cap.
As you can see, all sentences are mutually exclusive.
What do you think about it?
Do you have research material on this topic? - Thank you for every link sent

 

[chadd]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

From what I've read, ceramic is most susceptible to drifting due to weather conditions and is generally the least consistent due to that. Otherwise, anything that is on spec should be fine.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

I like paper in oil cuz it sounds creamy and vintagey to me. Orange drops are my 2nd fav cuz they sound supple. I also tried ceramic and polyester.

 

[shadowfire90]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

avoid ceramamic like the plague. Unless you're building a vintage instrument.

I wanted to really believe in this whole snake oil one material is better than the other more than anyone when I got into soldering. What we pay top dollar for is accuracy which they call tolerance. You can get 1% to 10% usually in guitars. The larger values of capacitors you'll see a benefit of accuracy. When people see youtube demos usually people have the one of each kind of capacitor and when they do their tests that is what we're hearing is the subtleties in capacitance. Say for example a 10% polyester capacitor could be one on the higher side so say its a 100nf capacitor, who knows it could be 110nf instead. The higher the capacitance the warmer the guitar even at "10" where we think it's off.

Aside from that since so little happens in a guitar. We're talking under or around 1V / 1A of current material wise go with whatever. There are places for paper in oil , wima capacitors, Japanese Nichicon capacitors and so forth. But in an electric guitar it doesn't have a place in my opinion unless a guitar tech who sells wiring harnesses wants a build to sell for more money as people want their builds to look more pretty. It's rock and roll not sushi. There is still a big pile of people who truly believe cloth wire, larger pots vs smaller asian import ones impact ones tone.

here's my system - i'm seriously considering copying and pasting this
want a brighter tone - use a smaller capaictor , however when you roll down to 0 you'll cut less frequencies
want a warmer tone - use a larger capacitor - you get more compression too - when you roll down to 0 you cut more frequencies.
the only way to get best of both worlds is with a no load tone pot
capacitors are more easily visualized in nano farads (nf) instead of 0.022uf I'll just say 22nf on here. The usual range I suggest for guitars is between 10nf and 100nf for passives.

When people ask about capacitors and pots this is a great video to start with. This and Dylans video about 5 myths about guitar pots I highly recommend.

 

[ErikH]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

If you can hear the sound going through the cap to ground and tell the difference between the materials, more power to you. I think it's all placebo affect. You want to hear a difference and therefore believe there is a difference. In a passive guitar circuit, there is no difference between material. The value and tolerance are what's important. That is what affects what you hear when the tone control is rolled back, filtering highs to ground, more than the material. Hell, my 2009 Trad Pro Les Paul has ceramic caps from the factory. I don't care either way.

 

[Mincer]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

Honestly, as long as they are withing spec (or out of it, and I like the sound), I don't care. I've had expensive ones and cheap ones of all sorts of material. I use my tone controls a lot, and I can't hear a difference.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

Just as with the whole "tonewood" debate, if you like a particular material and think that you can hear a difference, and it falls within your affordability range, then use it.

Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

 

[Ayrton]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

Buy a quality brand that is in spec and forget about it. You will not be able to hear a difference between caps of the same value.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

Value matters, not material. Any material will work fine if you've got roughly the right value.

 

[AlexR]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

Whilst oscilloscope testing has indeed found minute differences with tested caps of same value but different dilectric materials, it often falls right on/under the threshold for most people to hear - especially with the typical additions most guitarists have with their rigs.

If you're wiring such that the cap goes merely from the tonepot lug to ground, then small is ok. If you wire such that the cap bridges between volume and tone pots, then PIO or orange drops have the physical size and leg length to make the distance easily.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

The cheapest cap you can get which is in spec and rated to withstand the rigors of the extreme current that passive guitar pickups will blast them with (*sarcasm*).

Point being, the actual [i.e. "measured"] capacitance of each individual cap is really what matters in terms of sonic performance.

In other words, spend your good money on an LCR meter, not "special" capacitors. As for caps, buy 'em cheap by the lot, and sort them one by one by actual measured values.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

If you wire such that the cap bridges between volume and tone pots, then PIO or orange drops have the physical size and leg length to make the distance easily.

For the price though, you would be stupid to use a PIO or orange drop rather than an inch or two of hookup wire.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

If you do use Orange Drops you should specifically seek out the lowest voltage ones you can find. Even the lower voltage models (200V, I believe) are beyond excessively rated for guitars. They're really designed for much higher voltage AC applications, and are complete overkill for the inside of guitars. But if you must use them for some reason, the lower voltage ones are advantageous over the highly rated models because they are smaller (and theoretically cheaper, though this is not always the case).

 

[AlexR]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

For the price though, you would be stupid to use a PIO or orange drop rather than an inch or two of hookup wire.

We all have our preferences.....price being quite low on my list. I'd rather the neatness, and the fact that a lot of hookup wire flexes - so legs of exposed components make contact with other components. I've had more than one short from cavity items grounding after time and being transported/used etc.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

We all have our preferences.....price being quite low on my list. I'd rather the neatness, and the fact that a lot of hookup wire flexes - so legs of exposed components make contact with other components. I've had more than one short from cavity items grounding after time and being transported/used etc.

If you're having issues with cavity items grounding, you need to put some heat shrink around the bare wires in the circuit . . . not use a ridiculously overpriced part. And honestly, that's probably something you should do anyway, rather than hoping that a slightly thicker wire won't potentially bend or be knocked about ever.

Near as I can figure, the only real reason to use PIO/orange drop/whatever the flavour of the week for capacitors is today is vanity. Some people just really like the look of them in wiring cavities. That's why those fake bumblebee caps that Gibson was selling for a load of money make lots of sense. They're cosmetically right. If you often open up your wiring cavity to stare at the sexiness . . . knock yourself out. But it makes no difference to the tone your guitar puts out.

 

[Mincer]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

If you're having issues with cavity items grounding, you need to put some heat shrink around the bare wires in the circuit . . . not use a ridiculously overpriced part. And honestly, that's probably something you should do anyway, rather than hoping that a slightly thicker wire won't potentially bend or be knocked about ever.

Near as I can figure, the only real reason to use PIO/orange drop/whatever the flavour of the week for capacitors is today is vanity. Some people just really like the look of them in wiring cavities. That's why those fake bumblebee caps that Gibson was selling for a load of money make lots of sense. They're cosmetically right. If you often open up your wiring cavity to stare at the sexiness . . . knock yourself out. But it makes no difference to the tone your guitar puts out.

It isn't just for personal staring, as much as outward bragging. You have to take pics to post on social media and forums, and say 'Look at my super clean wiring, bro'.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

This week, on 'Pimp my harness' Xibit will use TWO .01 uF capacitors in parallel (one paper in oil, and one orange drop) to radically "improve" the sound of tone put wired with a single .022 uF capacitor. Note that all hookup wire will be solid core 8 ga . . . required to handle the blistering power of a metal guitarist's pickups.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

The machine reads differences in tone between different cap materials of the same value and I can certainly hear differences. I'm not sure why you're saying they will unequivocally sound the same.

 

[jeremy]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

i usually use orange drops or mallory 150s since thats what i have tons of. the value matters much more to me than the type of cap. i still have some guitars with the little ceramic disk, is there a difference? not that youll hear on stage

 

[WDeeGee]

Re: The best cap material for tone pot

About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.